Looking for comparison: Ayre QB-9 to Weiss Dac2

[davidR]

I've been digging around on the site trying to find everything Gordon has said about differences in USB cables. There is one really interesting one but I can't seem to find it. The other couple of posts are here : http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/USB-Cables-0#comment-10369

 

[machinehead]

I can offer my own experience.

 

I did an a/b test with a standard Sony computer USB cable and a Kimber USB cable and the difference was

very apparent.

 

I can't offer any of the whys or hows, but recommend you do the same, and test them out on your system.

 

[aljordan]

Hi Barrows,

 

I think you will probably be happy with a good firewire or asynchronous USB approach. While I haven't tried either of the two DACs you are looking at, I have tried a number of spdif and AES EBU connections from the PC to various outboard DACs. The Wavelength asynchronous USB is the most natural sound I've yet had in the system. I've tried the Benchmark DAC1 via USB and via AES EBU from a Lynx 2B sound card; Lynx 2B sound card to Audio Aero Prima Mk II SE DAC; MHDT Labs Havana via USB, optical and coax (via Lynx 2B or M-Audio Delta 410); Modwright modified Transporter via wired ethernet; and other setups.

 

While I am partial to having a tube in the system either in the DAC or preamp, I can say that the Wavelength asyncronous USB solution of the Cosecant v3 gets rid of the last bit of glare that I've had from spdif connections to similar tube DACs, while still remaining very dynamic and lively.

 

If you do get a chance to compare the Weiss and the Ayre, please let me know what you think.

 

P.S. I think I've spoken to you on the phone a couple times when you were working for the high end company you alluded to in your post. I have a question for you regarding your DAC choice but it is not really suited for a public forum. If you have a chance, please contact me via email.

 

Thanks,

Alan

 

[riderforever]

...why you're not considering the DAC released few days ago from the high-end company you were working for.

Aren't you satisfied with the audio quality of its usb input? May you explain why it has not been implemented the asynch usb mode?

 

If you prefer feel free to contact me in private.

 

[barrows]

It would not be appropriate or professional for me to directly comment on products produced by my former employer. I am looking for a computer audio solution that will provide a low jitter connection, with excellent audio quality, and my top three choices are Firewire interfaces, Async USB interfaces, and networked players. The only Async USB solutions available (which I am aware of) are from dCs, Ayre, and Wavelength, the only Firewire DAC I am considering is the Weiss DAC 2, there are a couple of other options, but considering costs and features, the DAC 2 appears to offer the best performance/value relationship. The only networked solution currently available which I have heard and like, is the Linn Klimax and Akurate DS (I will only use balanced connections, so the Majik is not under consideration)-both the Linn units perform very well, but they are out of my price range. When the "bridge" feature of the PS Audio PerfectWave DAC is available, I would also consider it as a network player, but currently this is not available.

My conclusion is that there are only two products currently available that suit my needs and price range: The Ayre QB-9, and the Weiss DAC2. At this point my tendency is to wait a little longer, and see what else come along, and what the real possibility is of the Ayre QB-9 getting an upgrade to allow the playback of files above 24/96.

 

[labjr]

The DAC2 seems nice but the asynchrous idea seems like it would be better. I'm going to wait a little longer myself to see what happens with higher resolutions than 24/96. I suspect there will be other brands of asynchronous DACs coming too. I like having an upgrade path with Ayre or Wavelength. And both seem equally dedicated to improving their products. I imagine upgrading the sampling rate will pretty much involve throwing the main board away and putting in a new one. The board itself probably doesn't cost too much. It's the R&D. But it's nice to be able to upgrade rather than have to buy a new one. I don't think Weiss does upgrades.

 

Network asynchronous DACs seem like a long way off. Higher sampling rates may be a ways off too since it depends on native Class 2 USB drivers. Not to mention the receiver chips.

 

[barrows]

Actually, network players are asynchronous in the same way as ASYNC USB. The data comes to the DAC without any critical timing information from the computer, and the DAC controls the rate at which data is sent over the network to the buffer at the DAC. This allows the use of a fixed frequency clock without the need for degrading PLLs. Check out the jitter results for the Linn Klimax DS at stereophile.com; the jitter is very, very low. The Linn has an entirely acceptable level of jitter.

The problem is that network players require a lot of development, that is typically beyond the expertise (and the budget of) most audio companies, so it may be a long time before we see a lot of ethernet DACs from the high end audio companies.

 

[labjr]

I'm trying to imagine how Linn accomplished this. Proprietary software/drivers/ chipsets? And at only 20 grand. That's an extra 17-5 for the network interface. I guess USB will have to do. Seems like the Ayre is quite a bargain then. I'm wondering how the sound of the Ayre compares to the Linn.

 

[Audio_ELF]

The range of DS players from Linn starts with the Sneaky DS at only £1000 (GBP) and goes through the Magik and Akurate range, upto the Klimax at about £15,000.

 

You're not paying 17,500 for a network interface - you're paying the extra for higher quality components throughout - IIRC up to the DAC chip-set all 4 devices are the same. Thats like asking why you can pay £100 for a BluRay player in Tescos, but Denon are asking £5,000 for their top of the range.

 

[laurent]

To Labjr,

 

With Firewire, you have the same result as with asynchronous usb, that is the computer is slaved to the dac and there is only one clock. So you could consider the DAC2.

Now I am also trying to compare both dacs but the french dealer of Ayre has only one unit and doses not want to lend it for tests at home.

Like many, I do not want to buy a dac without testing it in my setup.

 

 

 

[labjr]

Audio_ELF, I was being facetious. But then again that depends how the Ayre compares to the Linn. If the sound quality is as good, I would say even if it's close, then you are paying a lot extra for the Linn name. Hey, Wes Phillips from Stereophile has used the Ayre Universal player as his reference player for the last 3-4 years. So Ayre is a good value. Seems like Oppo's $500 Bluray player is as good or better than some far more expensive players. So some products are better values than others.

 

Laurent, does the DAC 2 actually use asynchronous transfer? I couldn't find it in the product desciption anywhere.

 

Thanks

 

[laurent]

 

Labjr,

 

Here is a quote from Chris review of the Minerva (similar to the Dac2) :

". Similar to USB FireWire offers the asynchronous operating mode."

I think it is the case with all firewire units.

 

To CG,

Thanks for your very interesting post. It makes me wonder that if computer are so "noisy" and apart from jitter issues, shouldn't we go for electrically isolated connection (like optical fiber or ethernet cable) rather than batteries, special usb cables or ssd drive?

 

 

 

 

[labjr]

"I think it is the case with all firewire units."

 

I wouldn't make any assumptions. I think I read in another thread somewhere that firewire needed to use proprietary drivers for asynchronous operation since there aren't native drivers for anynchronous use. And if Weiss does implement the asynchronous mode in firewire then you can't assume the other inputs will sound as good. Because they will have more jitter.

 

It would be nice if they also had asynchronous USB & network inputs, then it would maybe the "swiss army knife" of DACs. However the product would then become too expensive. I intend to do only computer audio so one input is fine for me.

 

 

[CG]

"It makes me wonder that if computer are so "noisy" and apart from jitter issues, shouldn't we go for electrically isolated connection (like optical fiber or ethernet cable) rather than batteries, special usb cables or ssd drive?"

 

Great question!

 

I guess there's several avenues to look at here.

 

One possible noise path is straight through the data connection, in this example USB. But, it could just as easily be any connection scheme you choose. If there is noise riding directly on the incoming data, that is something that the data receiver has to deal with. This can add jitter, for example. (Keep in mind that very few of the data streams are perfect square waves, so if there's amplitude variations due to noise on the rising or falling edges, that can cause the switching time to vary over the waveform, causing jitter. Some systems can successfully deal with that, others can't.)

 

The second is noise being generated by the computer or source that is transmitted to the outboard DAC unit through the ground connection or the associated DC connection. In the case of USB, there's both a ground and a 5 VDC connection. If that gets into the outboard audio unit and corrupts the audio in some way, it's there throughout the rest of the analog system. It could even be that the signal doesn't get damaged in that outboard audio unit, but the noise is just passed on to the next piece of the signal through the connections and there the signal gets damaged.

 

The third is through the other input to most audio units - the AC mains. That connection is always noisy just by the nature of the shared power grid. But, the AC connection also allows other audio units on the same power system within the house to have a sneak path to other audio units. This could either be a differential connection straight through the two power wires, or a common mode connection in combination with other connecting cables in the system.

 

Adding electrical isolation, wherever and however attained would probably reduce at least some of these problems. They may add additional problems, so you have to be on the look out for that proverbial free lunch thing. Batteries are a pain for audio manufacturers, but they can make huge differences by eliminating more than one of these problems.

 

(Side note: A lot of people feel that using batteries or some other really clean supply reduces "dynamics" or something like that. It may just be that the use of suitable batteries gets rid of artifacts that a lot of people associate with big dynamic range. This is a possible example of how everybody associates certain sound characteristics with something that they might be familiar with, but is not really what is happening. If you associate REALLY LOUD with the sound of a transistor radio with a tiny speaker distorting like crazy, you might be disappointed in a system with loads of very real head room...)

 

I guess the main point is that this actually a complex system that is often over-simplified in people's minds. Not much more complicated than a TV system or any other electronic system, but more complicated than it first appears. I think part of the thing with audio is that a lot of these types are problems can easily present themselves in ways that a human can sense (hear) them. It's not like in your CATV system where a missing authorization code for certain programs only causes loss of a program and an alert that something's wrong. Here, you probably experience it for yourself.

 

Really good subject to bring up... Sorry to drone on for so long.

 

[fjc1z1]

Hello Chris,

Any idea when the review of the Ayre dac will be ready.

 

[ted_b]

as of DAC2's arrival 20 min ago. The Ayre leaves tmrw but tonight will be some a/b'ing (not blind, but as fair as i can be to myself). The Ayre is the best DAC I've heard since the DAC2 left temporarily (Bryston and Cosecant in there in meantime; Cosecant is quite special too). I can't, with anything close to reality, say how the Ayre and DAC2 compare...until tonight, and even then, it will be tough..the DAC2 should settle in 24-48 hrs, but not giving it that time cuz i don't have that time (with the Ayre left).

 

[labjr]

Hi Ted,

 

I'm glad you will compare the two as best as possible and even had a chance to hear the Cosecant because sometimes the magazines don't compare the specific products you want compared. So to be clear, you liked the Cosecant but you preferred the Ayre ?

 

[ted_b]

I like the Ayre a touch better than the Cosecant. I think a couple things have to do with it:

1) The Ayre's MP apodizing filter is quite good and seems to create a very analog yet dynamic presentation. It's sound reminds me very much of the DAC2...well balanced, incredibly resolving and a midrange that sounds almost tube-like (without the bloom often associated with tubes).

2) The Cosecant, a tubed DAC, is very very smooth in its presentation, yet not as dynamic or as aggressive at both frequency extremes as the Ayre. In not saying it's rolled of, just slightly muted comparatively...and these are small nits not likely too noticeable except a/b'ing. With systems that have a hint of glare or edge, or with classic ss muscle amps, this DAC would be killer. In my system I don't need that extra tube, already got them. The Ayre marries up better (and adds a nice pair of XLR outputs as well).

 

Interesting note: Amarra/iTunes comparisons were done, and they were much more noticeable with the Wavelength DAC than with the Ayre.?? My own stupid theory is that Amarra is doing some of the filtering already done in the Ayre? Dunno.

 

[cfmsp]

 

Weiss certainly use asynchronous mode of Firewire in their Firewire DACs, as would any other application that requires a buffer for data transmission, e.g. audio, video, etc.

 

Yes, proprietary drivers need to be written, that is the 'fatal flaw' in the use of Firewire protocol by audiophile DAC manufacturers, as they don't have the expertise (or desire) to write/maintain drivers.

 

 

"And if Weiss does implement the asynchronous mode in firewire then you can't assume the other inputs will sound as good. Because they will have more jitter."

 

I'm not sure why you think that the mode they might implement in Firewire (esp given that asynchronous is the ONLY relevant mode for audio) would have any affect on other inputs, and I especially don't know why you assume they would have more jitter.

 

[labjr]

I don't think asynchronous input affects the other inputs. But it would allow one to compare the inputs and hear differences.

 

I'm not assuming the other inputs have more jitter. I take Charlie Hanson's word for it. He and Gordon Rankin seem to have tried every way to transfer data and have concluded that Asynchronous transfer has the lowest jitter. Judging by the reviews of their products, I would say they are probably right.

 

[laurent]

I have just spent my morning comparing those 3 Dacs, the Dac2 from Weiss, the Dac7 from Audio Research and the Ayre Qb9 on a system with Focal 1037Be speakers and McIntosh MA7000 integrated amplifier.

We had 2 computers (same Panasonic computers with same usb WD hard disk) and since the MA700 has 2 Xlr inputs we could play the same music at the same time on two DACs and compare by changing the input. The two pairs of Xlr were the same (Oehlbach).

Since I own a Dac7, I was with two other people so that I would not be too biased. Thanks to Gilles and Robert for their time.

The computers were PCs with XP SP3 and Foobar with asio4all.

The DAC2 was connected through a PCMIA firewire card.

The DAC7 was connected with a standard usb cable to an M Audio Transit usb card and then by an optical glass cable to the optical input of the DAC7. I had chosen this setup because it sounds better (less forward) than with a direct usb input. It is still a little bit forward.

The Ayre QB9 was connected with a wireworld ultraviolet usb cable.

We only listened to 16/44 in FLAC files.

 

First test DAC2 and DAC7.

The DAC2 sounds very smooth, very neutral. However the soundstage seems narrow and it does not go very low. The vocals and the instruments seem to be on the same level.

The DAC7 is a little forward but the sound stage is large, it goes low and there is a lot of air between the instruments. The music has more "body".

 

Then the DAC7 and the Ayre Qb9.

The Qb9 is also smooth and neutral as the Dac2. But the soundstage is larger and the music has more body but is still (to MY TASTE) behind the DAC7 on those 2 points. The three of us preferred the Dac7 but liked also the smooth sound of the Ayre Qb9

 

Then following an advice made by Ashtray on this forum we tried a combination of DAC2 and DAC7, ie using the DAC2 as a digital converter only. PC connected by firewire to the DAC2 then the Xlr digital output of the DAc2 to the Xlr input of the Dac7.

The large soundstage, the deep lows were still there but the slight forward edge had disappeared.

Vesta or Afi1 may be on my christmas list.

 

Laurent

 

 

[rydenfan]

Laurent, how much time was on the DAC2? I personally own one and can tell you unless it has 200 hours on it you have not heard what it can do. This is especially true of the bass as that was the largest change. I know the Ayre requires a few hundred hours as well. I would suggest spending a proper amount of time with each DAC as apposed to a more snapshot situation. I think this serve you best in the long term and show you what each DAC is truly capable.

 

[ted_b]

I currently own neither. Both are on loan, with the Ayre returned yesterday. The source is a Macbook (2008) with 4 GB of memory, an internal SSD drive (I bought this laptop off Gordon and Amarra/iTunes running. The Ayre was connected via Wireworld Ultraviolet USB (nice $40 cable recommended and given to me by Gordon), the DAC2 via a GoldX firewire cable (nice $30 cable recommended by Vincent and John at VRS). Both DACs were powered by the same power cords (Black Sands Violet ZR1; not my best pc but i had 2 of them to keep the variables from overwhelming us) and the RCA IC's were Stealth Nanofiber (Ayre) and VH Audio Pulsar (DAC2) to the pre. I would guess that the Ayre had an advantage with the much better Stealth IC's. While warming up the DAC2 (both DACs have 200 hrs on them) and loading its fw driver I played it via AES/EBU out of my Transporter. The very informal pre-test results were that both DACs sounded similar in that scenario, with both having nice extension, good bass and a warm analog/organic midrange. This was not surprising, as the Ayre has better cables, but in earlier DAC2 only tests a month ago the AES/EBU connection easily beat the DAC2's fw input...although at that time I was using an everyday Dell PC with Vista/Foobar/WASAPI or ASIO drivers.

 

When I moved the DAC2 to its playoff position, as a true MAC firewire DAC, the comparison became quite unfair. The DAC2 was 20-25% (if needed to quantify) greater in everything it did (except soundstage width...equals there). The Ayre is the best USB DAC I've heard in my system (I haven't heard the DAC7) but the DAC2 had its way with it, and then some. If you've taken a Hybrid SACD with a good redbook layer, then switched to the SACD layer and were bowled over with the additional resolution, etc ...that's the difference here. I had a buddy over who felt he heard the differences within 10 seconds of play! First round KO of sorts. We tried many different cuts, from 16/44 through 24/96 (and later up to 24/192 with the DAC2 only, of course). No match in my system.

 

My simple, non-blind conclusions are this: The DAC2 clearly, in my system, likes the MAC and Amarra setup considerably more than the pc one, and likes neutral cabling. It has clear advantages sonically, over the Ayre, in my system, and functionally in the above-96k sample rates, of course, as well as the multiple input flexibility. Rowmote flexibility will be even a large notch in its belt (although my preamps, either the Esoteric C-03 or the Modwright dual mono LS 36.5, are required for the rest of my system) Note: I later switched the IC''s and the results were even more favoring the DAC2, but really only slightly in midrange tonality. All other results stayed static, which says good things about the VH Audio Pulsars. Both IC's are well worn in and staples in mys system.

 

[laurent]

To Rydenfan,

 

The Ayre and the Weiss were demo units I had for a short lease. I don't know long they have been running.

Before the test I made the Ayre run for 10 hours (during the night) and the Dac2 for 1 hour with the second computer in the morning. The Ayre was hot when we played the test, the Dac7 and the Dac2 were cold. But the Dac7 had around 200 hours life but was cold. It was not fair with the Dac2.

You are right that it would have been better to let them play longer.

What you say about the bass certainly means that my unit was not broken in.

Does your Dac2 plays with a PC or a Mac?

 

To Ted-b,

Do you think that the Dac2 could be working better with a Mac than a PC. The firewire drivers may play a role.

 

It would be interesting if someone else could also test the Dac7. Even though it is not asynchronous, it still works very well.

 

I know this test is not perfect but it was already difficult to make it happen.

 

 

 

[ted_b]

but it's apples and oranges, too, though (pun kinda intended). My Macbook is better prepared, with the 4 gb and SSD, and is a dedicated unit, while the pc was an everyday Dell Vostro desktop. Also, Amarra is very very good (pricing notwithstanding). BTW the GoldX fw cable is amazing. I just threw in the one that was being used when i did the pc test and the goldX is hugely better; the other one is veiled and comrpessed...the cable clearly has a hand in the advantages, too...and all for like $25 shipped.

http://www.firewiredirect.com/product/89/

 

My dealer has a DAC7. I should borrow it!!

 

Ted