PS Audio DirectStream DAC

[vortecjr]

From the Sonore Homepage:

 

Sonore Rendu PureDSD DAC - Ethernet input and analog output (for DSD playback) SPDIF BNC output (for PCM playback)

 

You need a second DAC for PCM or you have to convert PCM to DSD by software.

 

Matt

 

That webpage is not linked to our primary website and is not official. It has not been updated for a while and it was me organizing my thoughts at the time.

 

The idea of the Rendu PureDSD DAC (single bit DSD DAC without a DAC chip) was to output DSD converted to analog to your preamp and output SPDIF to your DAC with its analog also ending up at your preamp. The obvious benefit is that you can play both PCM or DSD as needed by switching between them. It's meant to be a stop gap measure or for someone who really likes their existing PCM DAC and wants to try a sophisticated and integrated DSD solution. Let's call this idea #1.

 

Having completed idea #1 we moved on to idea #2. Idea #2 combines the PureDSD DAC module with a Sonore USB interface. The Sonore USB interface just so happens to incorporate an FPGA section with an over sampling filter (OSF). The OSF can be set two ways and adds either conversion in real time to 384 PCM for use with a Sabre based DAC or conversion to DSD for use with the Sonore PureDSD DAC module. You can also turn the OSF off and input equals output.

 

I have not decided which direction to take because it's not clear what directions customers want to go in:)

 

Here are some images of the two boards and your comments are welcomed....

 

Jesus R

[opus101]

In fact there's a link on ESS's website to a pretty nice presentation on this problem (and their related experience which mirrors mine.)

 

Their issues are less serious than yours because they have a multi-bit (6bits) modulator which at least gives a lot more flexibility in adding dither. However measurements still show dynamic noise floor shifts, in particular in the region between -30 and -40dBfs with sinewave stimulus.

[bmoura]

Howdy Brian

 

I have to beg off and not speak for PS Audio and their future products. That said they are a two channel company and I don't see them going whole sale into the AV world.

 

Tho I've put a little thought into a MC version, I didn't want to compromise jitter performance by adding hooks for MC to the DirectStream.

 

Tho personally I want a MC version at some point and may eventually talk PS Audio into it, I'd rather be working on other projects which might replenish my retirements funds a little faster

 

-Ted

 

One related question on the DirectStream DAC and features. It sounds like it will work with PS Audio's existing PerfectWave Bridge expansion card - or a DirectStream edition of the bridge. True ?

[matthias]

Having completed idea #1 we moved on to idea #2. Idea #2 combines the PureDSD DAC module with a Sonore USB interface. The Sonore USB interface just so happens to incorporate an FPGA section with an over sampling filter (OSF). The OSF can be set two ways and adds either conversion in real time to 384 PCM for use with a Sabre based DAC or conversion to DSD for use with the Sonore PureDSD DAC module. You can also turn the OSF off and input equals output.

I have not decided which direction to take because it's not clear what directions customers want to go in:)

Here are some images of the two boards and your comments are welcomed....

Jesus R

 

Thanks for this contribution. The boards look very good.

 

I want to vote clearly for conversion to DSD for use with the Sonore PureDSD DAC module.

In this case you have one DAC which is able to playback both DSD and PCM. I do not want to have a second DAC for PCM only.

I like this concept of a pure, chipless DSD DAC very much and want to ask some questions:

Is it possible to playback higher rate DSD than DSD128?

What about the performance in comparison to the Sonore exD DAC?

What about launching and price range?

 

Thanks

KR

Matt

[Ted Smith]

One related question on the DirectStream DAC and features. It sounds like it will work with PS Audio's existing PerfectWave Bridge expansion card - or a DirectStream edition of the bridge. True ?

Yep, the current bridge can be used unmodified.

[Ted Smith]

...

[psaudio]

Hi Guys, it's Paul. Thanks for this great dialog and thanks to Ted for jumping in and helping. Probably because I have trouble remembering what I had for breakfast, let alone what I must have said over the years, but I do not remember not liking DSD as it is claimed in this thread.

 

Can someone help me remember where and when I said that? Must have been some time ago.

 

Thanks!

[vortecjr]

Matt, thanks for your vote. I have a feeling that any pole will yield the need for different configurations. Would a DSD to PCM option interest you?

 

On playback rates:

For the Sonore Rendu - I can easily play native DSD256 (I only have one file) into the PureDSD. It should also support native DSD512. With my Buffalo Sabre DAC I can play DSD128 because it's takes exception to DSD256:) This is via the Rendu's i2s output. I have tested DoP output on the Rendu via SPDIF up to DSD128 with another DAC I have.

For the Sonore USB - Via DoP the Sonore USB supports native DSD128. Via ASIO the Sonore USB supports native DSD512. The Sonore USB supports on board up sampling of PCM to 384 for use with the Buffalo DAC. Research into the up sampling of PCM to DSD is pending a decision to recommend a software solution such as HQ Player or J River.

 

Comparison to the Sonore exD DAC:

The Sonore exD DAC brings a lot to the table and was one of the first inexpensive PCM and DSD DACs on the market. I can play 192K PCM (384K PCM in an extended version) and DSD128. It's USB input only and does not need drivers for Mac/Linux. Windows always needs driver at these rate:) It's a straight forward design with clean power, uses a Fluency DAC chip and has removable OP-AMPS for tweaking.

 

Launching and price range:

The Sonore Rendu with SPDIF or SPDIF/i2s are available right now. Please refer to my website for pricing. For the Sonore Rendu PureDSD DAC I plan to build 5 units to distribute to industry friends pioneering DSD so we can get their feedback before making it a product. The Sonore USB project is moving along, but I do not have an ETA or price yet.

 

Best,

 

Jesus R

[vortecjr]

Paul, congratulations on the launch of the DirectStream project.

 

Team, I follow Paul's posts and his news letters and I always got the impression that he was a DSD supporter...

 

Jesus R

[ChrisG]

Paul said that the Bridge will work with the new DAC, but (as you probably know), the Bridge won't play gapless unless you use PSA's eLyric software.

[matthias]

Would a DSD to PCM option interest you?

On playback rates:

For the Sonore Rendu - I can easily play native DSD256 (I only have one file) into the PureDSD. It should also support native DSD512. With my Buffalo Sabre DAC I can play DSD128 because it's takes exception to DSD256:) This is via the Rendu's i2s output. I have tested DoP output on the Rendu via SPDIF up to DSD128 with another DAC I have.

For the Sonore USB - Via DoP the Sonore USB supports native DSD128. Via ASIO the Sonore USB supports native DSD512. The Sonore USB supports on board up sampling of PCM to 384 for use with the Buffalo DAC. Research into the up sampling of PCM to DSD is pending a decision to recommend a software solution such as HQ Player or J River.

Jesus R

 

Thank you,

 

as stated above I like the concept of a pure, chipless DSD DAC. That means a PCM to DSD option in the FPGA would be nice for using HIFI-Streaming Services via Internet, which do not provide to save the files in a software player like HQPlayer.

I never liked a conversion from DSD to PCM, so this option does not interest me.

If a PCM to DSD option in the FPGA is not possible I could live with a combination of HQPlayer and the PureDSD DAC so PCM files could be converted to DSD by HQPlayer and played by the PureDSD DAC.

 

KR

Matt

[matthias]

Paul, congratulations on the launch of the DirectStream project.

 

Team, I follow Paul's posts and his news letters and I always got the impression that he was a DSD supporter...

 

Jesus R

 

Yes,

I got the same impression but IMO the Directstream DAC prefers PCM to DSD.

 

KR

Matt

[Ted Smith]

Yes,

I got the same impression but IMO the Directstream DAC prefers PCM to DSD.

? It was designed as a DSD DAC from the outset, PCM was added later. Shaping the noise to put less stress on any preamps, amps or speakers to follow seems like a good idea to me. But YMMV.

[esimms86]

So when is Chris Connaker (or, preferably, Ted Brady based on his interest in and experience with DSD DACs) going to get a Directream DAC for review?

 

Esau

[vortecjr]

Thank you,

 

as stated above I like the concept of a pure, chipless DSD DAC. That means a PCM to DSD option in the FPGA would be nice for using HIFI-Streaming Services via Internet, which do not provide to save the files in a software player like HQPlayer.

I never liked a conversion from DSD to PCM, so this option does not interest me.

If a PCM to DSD option in the FPGA is not possible I could live with a combination of HQPlayer and the PureDSD DAC so PCM files could be converted to DSD by HQPlayer and played by the PureDSD DAC.

 

KR

Matt

 

Matt, right now the Sonore Rendu does not have the FPGA DSP on board. So the Sonore Rendu PureDSD combination is split into PCM SPDIF and DSD analog outputs as discussed. I have also considered another option, but no hardware has been build so I'll leave it at that. I really like the Sonore Rendu with the add on module providing DSD to PCM conversion and SPDIF output. UPNP serves are not up to speed on transcoding DSD to PCM so this solution prevails under the circumstances. The algorithms used in the DSD to PCM module are well sorted out and it's a very simple way to take full advantage of the hi resolution content on DSD in a PCM only DAC. The Sonore USB already has the FLGA so it's a different set of circumstances and software conversion makes sense...

 

Jesus R

[matthias]

Matt, right now the Sonore Rendu does not have the FPGA DSP on board. So the Sonore Rendu PureDSD combination is split into PCM SPDIF and DSD analog outputs as discussed. I have also considered another option, but no hardware has been build so I'll leave it at that. I really like the Sonore Rendu with the add on module providing DSD to PCM conversion and SPDIF output. UPNP serves are not up to speed on transcoding DSD to PCM so this solution prevails under the circumstances. The algorithms used in the DSD to PCM module are well sorted out and it's a very simple way to take full advantage of the hi resolution content on DSD in a PCM only DAC. The Sonore USB already has the FLGA so it's a different set of circumstances and software conversion makes sense...

Jesus R

 

Sorry, Jesus, for some misunderstanding. I was referring to a combination of Sonore USB interface and PureDSD DAC. I was never referring to the Sonore Rendu. If I understand you correctly there will be two possible versions of your USB interface:

The Sonore USB interface just so happens to incorporate an FPGA section with an over sampling filter (OSF). The OSF can be set two ways and adds either conversion in real time to 384 PCM for use with a Sabre based DAC or conversion to DSD for use with the Sonore PureDSD DAC module.

I would prefer the conversion to DSD.

If the FPGA conversion from PCM to DSD is not possible I would be happy with a Sonore USB interface without FPGA. In this case I would use HQPlayer to convert PCM to DSD together with the PureDSD DAC.

Please correct me, if there is some misunderstanding at my side.

Thanks

KR

Matt

[christopher3393]

So when is Chris Connaker (or, preferably, Ted Brady based on his interest in and experience with DSD DACs) going to get a Directream DAC for review?

 

Esau

 

Yes. Good question. It looks like John Darko, Michael Lavorgna, and TAS are all expecting review units very soon. With this site's attention to DSD it would be a most fitting CA review. Of course fully respecting that previous commitments might delay this.

[vortecjr]

Sorry, Jesus, for some misunderstanding. I was referring to a combination of Sonore USB interface and PureDSD DAC. I was never referring to the Sonore Rendu. If I understand you correctly there will be two possible versions of your USB interface:

The Sonore USB interface just so happens to incorporate an FPGA section with an over sampling filter (OSF). The OSF can be set two ways and adds either conversion in real time to 384 PCM for use with a Sabre based DAC or conversion to DSD for use with the Sonore PureDSD DAC module.

I would prefer the conversion to DSD.

If the FPGA conversion from PCM to DSD is not possible I would be happy with a Sonore USB interface without FPGA. In this case I would use HQPlayer to convert PCM to DSD together with the PureDSD DAC.

Please correct me, if there is some misunderstanding at my side.

Thanks

KR

Matt

 

Matt, no problem....I'm use to all this being confusing and it sometimes it even confuses me:) Let's call this idea #3 - I have a USB interface without the FPGA and it can connect easy enough to the Sonore PureDSD DAC. You can play native DSD64 as DoP in the Sonore PureDSD DAC. You can also take PCM and up sample in software to DSD64 as DoP and play PCM that way into the Sonore PureDSD DAC. That specific hardware combination is capped to DSD64 playback. It might make for a nice solution if people are open to the software up sampling. Still fair warning...it's not a product yet:)

 

Jesus R

[matthias]

Matt, no problem....I'm use to all this being confusing and it sometimes it even confuses me:) Let's call this idea #3 - I have a USB interface without the FPGA and it can connect easy enough to the Sonore PureDSD DAC. You can play native DSD64 as DoP in the Sonore PureDSD DAC. You can also take PCM and up sample in software to DSD64 as DoP and play PCM that way into the Sonore PureDSD DAC. That specific hardware combination is capped to DSD64 playback. It might make for a nice solution if people are open to the software up sampling. Still fair warning...it's not a product yet:)

 

Jesus R

 

Am I right with FPGA the USB interface is able to convert PCM to DSD128 or higher and playback DSD128 or higher with the PureDSD DAC to analogue?

 

Matt

[earflappin]

Am I right with FPGA the USB interface is able to convert PCM to DSD128 or higher and playback DSD128 or higher with the PureDSD DAC to analogue?

 

Matt

 

Wouldn't a separate thread make sense for these interactions on the Sonore products? This thread is about the PSA DirectStream DAC.

[k6davis]

Wouldn't a separate thread make sense for these interactions on the Sonore products? This thread is about the PSA DirectStream DAC.

Agreed, but please do start one Jesus.

[MikeJazz]

Howdy

 

No, but the losses are almost all outside of the audio band.

 

-Ted

Thanks Ted!

[bmoura]

So when is Chris Connaker (or, preferably, Ted Brady based on his interest in and experience with DSD DACs) going to get a Directream DAC for review?

 

Esau

 

I was guessing that Ted Brady might get 3 to review so it could be compared to his Mytek Multichannel DSD stack tests!

[kana813]

So when is Chris Connaker (or, preferably, Ted Brady based on his interest in and experience with DSD DACs) going to get a Directream DAC for review?

 

Esau

 

I'd rather have Chris review the DirectStream.

 

He reviewed the PWD MkII.

 

To me it isn't just about DSD playback, it's how much the DirectStream improves PCM playback.

[matthias]

I'd rather have Chris review the DirectStream.

He reviewed the PWD MkII.

To me it isn't just about DSD playback, it's how much the DirectStream improves PCM playback.

 

I bet the Directstream shines more brightly in PCM playback than in DSD playback...........