SACD sound quality vs computer audio sound quality

[DSD_mastering]

We've been taking the DSD information from SACD's for a couple of years now. We are the sole provider of SACD->PCM 88.2 material for HDtracks.

DSD information taken from an SACD and played back through our Pyramix/DAD AX24/EMM Labs rigs sound better than the SACD played back from an SACD player.

We played with multiple sample rates converting DSD -> PCM. We tried software SRC's and H/W SRC's, going from DSD to every PCM rate.

 

DSD to DXD (352.8) sounds the best

 

DSD to 192, sounds the worse

 

Going to a base of 44.1 always sounds better than a base of 48k at any rate.... period.

 

We found out today that a label that distributes SACD's just upsampled the 24/44.1 material for the SACD layer..... that's pretty lame.

 

 

Regards,

Bruce

 

 

[audiozorro]

Bruce, I can clearly understand why DSD to DXD (352.8) sounds the best and DSD to 192, sounds the worse but wouldn't 176.4 be better than 88.2?

 

Also I believe you are very familiar with the Korg MR-1000 and MR-2000. Are these units able to playback the DSD stereo WAV files that are available from the 2L download test site?

 

Do you foresee any reasonably priced ($1000 - $5000) DACs capable of DXD or DSD playback within the next year or two?

 

Finally, since you are the sole provider of SACD->PCM 88.2 material for HDtracks can you recommend several albums that you are most proud of and demonstrate your work?

 

[DSD_mastering]

Yes, 176.4 is better than 88.2 But what you have to realize is that most people don't have the bandwidth to download GB's of files. That's why they selected 88.2 and 96k for their download material. It's manageable.

Both of the Korg units as well as the Tascam rig will playback the DSD files.

I believe someone actually priced out a 2-channel DAD AX24 DAC with DSD/DXD capability and it was right around $5-6k. You can upgrade as funds become available with A-D and mic pre's. I believe Mytek has a DSD DAC for around $5k I've also seen the EMM Labs DSD DAC's for $5k on the used market.

Some of the material that we've done that I like are the Julia Fischer Pentatone files, the Ry Cooder "Meeting by the River" files and the APO label like "Lousiana Country Boy" Big Daddy Hypolite!

 

 

Regards,

Bruce

 

 

[Synfreak]

Hi Bruce!

 

Quote:

"We found out today that a label that distributes SACD's just upsampled the 24/44.1 material for the SACD layer..... that's pretty lame."

 

The Beethoven Vänska from BIS for example ...!?

 

I haven`t checked all of my SACDs for now (will be a time consuming action to do so ...), but I`ve encountered many discs that where clearly made of 44,1/48khz material. Maybe I will be able to reference them in a future thread.

 

A small thought on the higher sampling rates for DSD --> PCM conversion:

It might be better to use higher sampling rates, but I would tend to check for the frequency content first. It would be not a good thing to use the 176,4khz rate, only because of that it is higher, as of most of the audio that will be transfered (and later be "DA'ed" to your system) contents a LOT of (shaped) dither noise (only!?). A closer look to what DSD can do at frequencies over (around) 20khz, might give a big "surprise".

In fact, DSD (at least at 2,8mhz) has a poorer resolution as 16Bit linear PCM above appr. 18khz.

 

Cheers

Harald

 

[Suteetat]

I wonder if bandwidth is still a problem for high rez download 24/176, HDtracks and similar should consider distributing their high rez music also on disc. I know that it is against their idea of download music but until they can iron out tax, vat etc etc issue that seems to plague download music industry in the US for international sale, a physical disc would also bypass that obstacle. I think now for high rez music to take off, we need more software which is unfortunately not so easy to come by.

Of course Linn, 2L and other don't seem to have bandwidth problem but may be their volume is significantly less than HDtracks.

 

[ggking7]

Harald, which do you think would be the cheapest method of storing SACD data in PCM format? Maybe getting a player which already converts DSD to PCM, using one of the mods you referenced, and then sending to SPDIF?

 

[Synfreak]

Hi!

 

I would say, it depends on where you life. As I`m from Germany, I have choosen the Audiopraise board (they are located in Prague, Czech Republik - not too far away from here ...). And this was the cheapest way for me to get this thing started (a second hand Pioneer player, the board + fitting made by audiopriase was under 600 Euro inkluding shipping costs).

If I had a little more monay to spend, it would make sense to get a fully equipped unit moded by DVDUpgrades.ch (lokated in Switzerland). Pro of the DVDUpgrade unit: Multichannel capible

 

And there is also the Switchbox mod (mainly for Oppo players), but that one seems to suffer from the Mediatek DSD to PCM conversion on some "hot" SACDs (try to search on DIY audio forums on that topic).

 

If you could do the modding/soldering job for yourself, you are able to save some bucks for shipping and labor costs.

 

If this HDMI to HDMI+Digital S/PDIF out unit (discribed in the "Blu-ray thread) will work, getting a PS3 (which is capable of SACD playback) or a multiplayer (which converts the HDMI out to PCM), would be also a good way to get things rolling.

 

As I stated in an earlier post, I´m currently doing a mere "testing". But I will be able to put the whole thing to my main rig till the end of June, and report my findings then.

 

As I have over 300 SACDs waiting to get "ripped", I definately will do the main job after I`ve heard the outcomming on my main rig

 

If you have some further questions, feel free to ask!

 

Still learning by doing, so ... conversation is a good thing

 

Cheers

Harald

 

[Cavaille]

The question is if we really would get a benefit from "ripping" a SACD to the computer with the help of a drive built for a HiFi component. Just because the path from the component to the PC is digital it doesn´t necessarily mean that the sound will be superior to the CD layer ripped by a decent computer drive.

 

We have to consider that the drive within the HiFi component can strongly be influenced by things from the outside. Only a few ones:

1. Vibration. The ground the component is placed on shouldn´t vibrate.

2. Leveling the component out. If not, the laser drive maybe has a "harder" time reading the data

3. The power supply for the drive - a weak power supply doesn´t sound necessarily good.

4. Jitter induced by the S/PDIF interface

 

The same goes for a "normal" computer drive. But maybe not that much. I thought for years that the influences brought to the sound of drives from the outside affect audio material less compared to the drive of a HiFi component. Are their any professional "SACD-Roms" out there? Bruce talked about getting the SACD information on a Pyramix, I´d be very interested how. I assume he uses some different methods.

 

I think that the quality we CAN get from the CD-layers with a computer drive inside a computer and good software like EAC exceed the possibilities we can get if we wire a HiFi component digitally to the computer. You know, bandwidth isn´t everything. The better sound of the SACD layer could be eaten up by the obstacles a drive in a component encounters.

 

I have an external drive for my PC (a Samsung). My rips are sounding better if I level that drive out, provide a good ground and a better power cable. And the sound I get is far better than the sound from a HiFi drive treated to the same methods.

 

On the other hand I have not heard a "rip" of the SACD layer (I´ve heard a pure DSD source though). Maybe the sound is so much better that it obscures the obstacles.

 

[DSD_mastering]

We use Professional EMM Labs and DAD AX24 converters to get the DSD information off the SACD. We use the EMM labs CDSD-se and Playback Designs MPS-5 as transports.

The DSD material coming off a good SSD is about as good as you can get, provided the rest of the chain is up to snuff.

 

Listening to John Mayer now in DSD....... awesome!

 

 

Regards,

 

[audiozorro]

This is all very interesting but I have too few SACDs (perhaps two dozen) that would ever make any investment for ripping or converting SACDs worthwhile. I’m sure if I had hundreds of SACDs, I might feel differently. For me, assuming a price of $20 for each SACD, I would need about 300 SACDs that I want to rip to make this investment worthwhile.

 

Even if I had all the hardware and software in hand, I would never be so arrogant to think that my capabilities to convert SACD to high rez PCM files would ever equal that of Bruce’s expertise. I don’t know if it would be legal to send a SACD to Puget Sound Studio for conversion, what it would cost or how much of a difference the conversion would make, but the conversions would be top notch and the results would be interesting.

 

Fortunately, I can get some idea by comparing the RBCD layer to the SACD layer of all hybrid disks for comparison to establish the maximum gain possible in sound quality. More appropriately, for some titles, I can also compare the SACD to high rez digital downloads or data files thanks to companies like Reference Recordings, Chesky Records, Linn Records and 2L. From this point forward, when I want SACD quality I will just likely buy the highest resolution digital download or data disc that these companies offer. Of course if the price for SACDs is low and hard to pass up, I will buy SACDs. I bought about 10 Telarc SACDs when they were on sale for $13.98 and another 10 when they were on sale for $4.98.

 

By contrast, my interest in possibly converting some vinyl to digital is significant since I have thousands of LPs, some of which will never be released on any digital format. Time is the major obstacle for vinyl to digital conversions. At least with hybrid SACDs, it takes less than 2 minutes to rip the RBCD layer to 16/44.1, which gives me acceptable lossless digital files even though they are not SACD quality. With vinyl, I’m starting from scratch and converting each LP is bound to take 1-2 hours.

 

 

[emmodad]

Bruce, to clarify: i presume you are 1/ using emmL and DAD to extract the DSD stream?

 

or are you 2/ recording analog output from one of them?

 

simply curious: if /1/ which entity must provide you "authoriazation" to utilize the DSD stream? the label?

 

[DSD_mastering]

We are extracting the direct DSD data stream. It does not enter the analog domain.

The labels or anyone with distribution rights, such as download companies give us authorization.

 

 

Regards,

 

 

[Synfreak]

If I had the chance to use the Meitner gear (Drive: CDSD-se, DtoD Converter: ADC8 MKIV), I would definately love to convert my collection this way. But, unfortunatly ..., these are out of reach for me.

 

I will definetely not ditch my Esoteric X-03se, as long as I`m not completely satisfied with my "DSD-Rips". And I wouldn`t do this at all, if there weren`t some discs where the DSD layer is of better "quality" as the RBCD layer (speak: the mastering/transfer is "better").

 

I´m looking forward to download some of the real good music from HdTracks in the future too.

 

@ Audiozorro:

Where are you located?

Maybe there is one who could do the transfers for you?

 

cheers

Harald

 

[ggking7]

Thanks Harald and Cavaille. The only thing that makes me think twice about setting up an SACD "ripper" besides the cost are the potentially degrading influences in the chain between the player and the computer, including the player and computer. At some point it becomes more like a vinyl rip than a digital copy as far as how closely the copy resembles the original.

 

[Cavaille]

@Harald:

 

You know, you could be the only person here with a HiFi component where I would not dare to question the quality of your rips. Your Esoteric X-03 SE has a monstrous drive, known for perfect playing quality (the famous VRDS drive) and I assume it also has a decent power supply. This should theoretically give superior results to the DSD-rip.

 

And I would love to get my hands on a professional DSD extracting transport. I own quite a lot of SACDs from Varese Sarabande, Telarc and MDG and I´d love to hear them in the full resolution they have to offer - regardless if the source was pure DSD, DXD, 24/96, 24/192, 24/176, 24/44.1 or 24/48. The higher bit resolution itself can be an advantage worth enough.

 

We could make a comparison between formats though. LINN offers digital downloads in 24/88 derived directly from a DSD source. You can compare them directly to 16/44.1 which they offer also. I used some of those tracks to configure the iZotope RX Advanced SRC for upsampling "normal" 16/44.1 stuff. By upsampling only I can reach approximately 50-70% of the sound of an original high resolution recording. I published this here (for publishing I used a track from Reference Recordings): http://www.thesoundtrackzone.com/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=323

 

[Synfreak]

@ Cavaille:

 

You wrote:

"You know, you could be the only person here with a HiFi component where I would not dare to question the quality of your rips."

 

True, but I´m not using the Esoteric for the transfer. Currently I have "only" a Pioneer DVD-656 at my hands (which is modded with/by Audiopraise). I currently try to get a reasonably priced Pioneer DVD 989, which has a better drive, and is - generally spoken - much more "robust".

 

And, the X-03se might be not "the best" SACD player (given its price point) out there. But I`ve choosen that one at the time (about three years ago), because it is a very good RBCD player, and because it might play me some SACDs "in the future".

AFAIK, the X-03 converts DSD to PCM anyway, so it might be able to get he PCM stream tapped and routed to an output, as the Audiopriaise mod in the Pioneer models does.

 

@ cavaille:

Are you located in Europe?

And what (classical?) music do you listen too (an SACD)?

 

Cheers

Harald

 

[Cavaille]

Harald, the Esoteric might not be the "best" SACD player - but it has a hell-of-a-drive. And the little Pioneer you were talking about... well... the bigger one should indeed be more robust. At least from what I´ve read about it. Despite all my talking, I don´t own a SACD player. Shame on me. But I´ve heard some true DSD recordings (mostly via digital download from LINN)

 

And I will own a SACD player somewhere in the future which is the reason I buy SACDs. I buy them in advance to play them when I finally have a SACD player. But then... I hope the industry will have mercy and provide us with computer drive that will be capable of recognizing the DSD stream.

 

I mostly listen to SACDs from Telarc. Classical recordings. Mostly orchestral and organ. I have some recordings from RCA and MDG (organ & orchestral) and some Pop SACDs (Björk, Rolling Stones). I have three movie scores on SACD from Varese Sarabande (Star Trek: Nemesis, The Great Train Robbery and Timeline). Until I have my SACD player I sadly can only the CD layer... but well... I´ll continue to buy and buy. I´m not interested in the multi-channel layer. That´s why I also buy two-channel SACDs.

 

And I´m coming from Germany.

 

[Synfreak]

Ahh, Ger-many ...

 

If you would like to hear one of the RCA Living Stereo or Mercury Living Presence releases in a "ripped" Version, I will be able to get a few "excerpts" for you to listen. Just drop me a mail ("put-my-avatar-name-here"@aol.com). I´m living near Bayreuth, and therefore speak german, too :-O

 

Cheers

Harald