89reksal Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Interesting how varied the impressions are here. One of the biggest step changes I have heard in my system came from upgrading the power cord between my wall outlet and power distribution strip. I had been using Nordost Vishnu throughout, but substituted a Nordost Brahma for the cord feeding everything. My system wen from being very good to among the best I'd ever heard. I was left with the impressions that my system had crossed into the high end for the very first time. If I ever had to downsize, the Brahmas would be the last to go. Same for my Stillpoints Ultra SS. What these do to bring realism to the music just can't be achieved with better speakers or better electronics. My own experience would be most close to this and Bunny's ideas (although I would definitely include room treatment and house wiring/dedicated line as well, but they would be nearer to the bottom). A couple years ago I was so dis-satisfied with my system that I had resigned myself to putting up with it until I could afford to basically replace everything (amp, preamp/dac, speakers). Since then, without changing any of these and relatively little cash outlay, at least compared to the cost of even one new component, my system has improved, to my ears at least, so much that I have no desire to upgrade/replace anything major and multiple times a day now while listening, I'll be thinking or saying "Geez this sounds good". This gradual improvement probably started with me installing a Furutech GTX-D rhodium receptacle. The changes also include upgrading my power cables (most expensive was $150 used), speaker cables, digital cable, Windows operating system to WS2012 and other tweaks to my server/player computer. I'm sure others have wildly different experiences but I'm very happy with the fact that it was the "little things" (and least expensive) that made the difference for me. Link to comment
InfernoSTi Posted February 21, 2014 Author Share Posted February 21, 2014 First, thank you for the extremely thoughtful responses. This has widened my perspective of what folks are considering. Some key things I've learned include the variation being so dramatic between priorities. Each of us has come to our perspective by some means unique to each of our experiences. Things that work are logged, things that don't are set aside. Some things don't even have to do with the systems (ears, Scotch, a comfortable chair). I also think that the conversation made me consider ranking my priorities in a different manner. Let me attempt this revised list: 1. Music I love (and music I love to hear..sometimes two different things). 2. Room environment/comfort/experience (chair, beverages and emotions included). 3. System balance/synergy (not noticing "that" weak link because it all works well together at what ever level it's at). 4. Equipment: Most important a. Speakers (including location) b. Room Treatment (absorption and diffusion) Really important c. (tie) Amp/Pre Amp c. (tie) DAC Significant e. Server f. Clean Power/Electrical g. File Resolution/File Format h. Player Software/Audio Optimizing Noticeable i. Amp Electronic Tweaks (better capacitors, tubes, etc) j. Speaker Cords/USB and RCA Cables/Power Cords k. Isolation/Dampening Tweaks I think this is a more accurate representation of "What's important to a great system" to me a day later and after reading the posted responses… Best, John P.S. I was really tempted to respond to each post…that is how interesting each one was…but that would become tedious for others so just accept my thanks for taking the time to write such a variety of meaningful posts. Positive emotions enhance our musical experiences. Synology DS213+ NAS -> Auralic Vega w/Linear Power Supply -> Auralic Vega DAC (Symposium Jr rollerball isolation) -> XLR -> Auralic Taurus Pre -> XLR -> Pass Labs XA-30.5 power amplifier (on 4" maple and 4 Stillpoints) -> Hawthorne Audio Reference K2 Speakers in MTM configuration (Symposium Jr HD rollerball isolation) and Hawthorne Audio Bass Augmentation Baffles (Symposium Jr rollerball isolation) -> Bi-amped w/ two Rythmic OB plate amps) -> Extensive Room Treatments (x2 SRL Acoustics Prime 37 diffusion plus key absorption and extensive bass trapping) and Pi Audio Uberbuss' for the front end and amplification Link to comment
wakibaki Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Speakers, and where you listen to them. Headphones. Everything else can be taken for granted these days. w Mike zerO Romeo Oscar November http://wakibaki.com Link to comment
crisnee Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Speakers, and where you listen to them. Headphones. Everything else can be taken for granted these days. w Huh? Chris Link to comment
Melvin Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 I was firmly in the speakers 1st camp for most of my time pursuing great sound. Now .. not so much. I've heard obvious and often dramatic differences when swapping either amps/pre, DACs, or speakers and would have a difficult time ranking these in order of importance at this point. I have come to believe a bit differently: 1. speakers 1. source 1. amps/pre 2. the room 3. cables Link to comment
mav52 Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Speakers ( if you have poor performing speakers nothing is going to sound good regardless of how good your source, your amp and music is) Amp/Pre Room 'The Music' The Truth Is Out There Link to comment
beetlemania Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 if you have poor performing speakers nothing is going to sound good regardless of how good your source, your amp and music is A poor amp will likewise hold back the performance of decent speakers. Roon ROCK (Roon 1.7; NUC7i3) > Ayre QB-9 Twenty > Ayre AX-5 Twenty > Thiel CS2.4SE (crossovers rebuilt with Clarity CSA and Multicap RTX caps, Mills MRA-12 resistors; ERSE and Jantzen coils; Cardas binding posts and hookup wire); Cardas and OEM power cables, interconnects, and speaker cables Link to comment
wakibaki Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Huh? Well, as I posted elsewhere, I have over a dozen DACs, in TVs, TV receivers, computers, external (USB, spdif) DACs, DAPs, mobile phones, sound cards. While there are differences between them, they're negligible from the perspective of listening to music. I never feel the need to switch between them because I feel the reproduction is lacking, and I'm a musician, and I'm just a couple of units short of passing the Philips 'Golden Ears' challenge. Similarly with amplification, you can get 60-odd watts from a monolithic integrated circuit that costs peanuts. If you want to run FR speakers, which I do, amongst others, then you can get away with a Sonic Impact clone and PSU that costs ~$20. Again, there might be slight differences detectable between them, but they are trivial, in terms of interfering with the enjoyment of music. So if I had a lot of money to spend, I'd probably add a pair of expensive electrostatic speakers to my collection, but I don't feel that not having them leaves a gaping hole in my life or my enjoyment of music. I do feel that much of the fuss (I'm so sensitive and aesthetic you know) surrounding Hi-fi is created by people trying to fill the holes in their lives left by not having applied themselves to learning to play an instrument. w Mike zerO Romeo Oscar November http://wakibaki.com Link to comment
bluesman Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 I do feel that much of the fuss (I'm so sensitive and aesthetic you know) surrounding Hi-fi is created by people trying to fill the holes in their lives left by not having applied themselves to learning to play an instrument. Ouch! - that kind of talk will get you into trouble almost as fast as my tongue-in-cheek description of my son: "I wanted a musician, but all I got was a drummer." you can get 60-odd watts from a monolithic integrated circuit that costs peanuts And everybody knows that the even watts have superior sound quality to odd watts. As they only come out of tubes, they cost more. Link to comment
speavler Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 adding a "high end" preamp made the biggest difference in my system (next to speakers/subwoofer). I know that's not supposed to be the case, but..*shrugs* Link to comment
wakibaki Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Ouch! - that kind of talk will get you into trouble almost as fast as my tongue-in-cheek description of my son: "I wanted a musician, but all I got was a drummer." You made me laugh. Even a (deaf) percussionist can be a musician. Vid Evelyn Glennie. w Mike zerO Romeo Oscar November http://wakibaki.com Link to comment
Paul R Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Wow - harsh dude. I feel the problems most people have in life stems from failing to learn the mathematics that a healthy human animal should learn in Jr. High School. But that's just me... Well, as I posted elsewhere, I have over a dozen DACs, in TVs, TV receivers, computers, external (USB, spdif) DACs, DAPs, mobile phones, sound cards. While there are differences between them, they're negligible from the perspective of listening to music. I never feel the need to switch between them because I feel the reproduction is lacking, and I'm a musician, and I'm just a couple of units short of passing the Philips 'Golden Ears' challenge. Similarly with amplification, you can get 60-odd watts from a monolithic integrated circuit that costs peanuts. If you want to run FR speakers, which I do, amongst others, then you can get away with a Sonic Impact clone and PSU that costs ~$20. Again, there might be slight differences detectable between them, but they are trivial, in terms of interfering with the enjoyment of music. So if I had a lot of money to spend, I'd probably add a pair of expensive electrostatic speakers to my collection, but I don't feel that not having them leaves a gaping hole in my life or my enjoyment of music. I do feel that much of the fuss (I'm so sensitive and aesthetic you know) surrounding Hi-fi is created by people trying to fill the holes in their lives left by not having applied themselves to learning to play an instrument. w Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC. Robert A. Heinlein Link to comment
mayhem13 Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 A poor amp will likewise hold back the performance of decent speakers. And crappy speakers will sound like crap through a great amp. Link to comment
bluesman Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 I feel the problems most people have in life stems from failing to learn the mathematics that a healthy human animal should learn in Jr. High School. Sorry, Paul - that just doesn't add up. David Link to comment
Paul R Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Always takin' it to the limit... -Paul Sorry, Paul - that just doesn't add up. David Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC. Robert A. Heinlein Link to comment
crisnee Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Originally Posted by beetlemania A poor amp will likewise hold back the performance of decent speakers. And crappy speakers will sound like crap through a great amp. It's hard to find a poor amp, an amp that won't make adequate speakers sound at least decent. But speakers, ouch. Like those huge 1.6 lb. speakers with the fly away 12" woofers and fiber board backs, available at trendy electronics import shops everywhere. And speaking of so-called crappy stuff that sounds great at times. A short story: I went to the post office today and what was playing but The Allman Brothers, One Way Out. Great song, Duane's slide, Greg's black and white blues growl. It sounded good enough that I stayed to listen for awhile. The lobby was rather large, mostly stone and glass, high ceiling. I figured that we were talking decent corner speakers angled into the lobby; but no, and not in-ceiling speakers either. So what gives? This sound was to die for. Turns out about above the entrance (a vestibule built into the lobby) someone had placed a small boombox, no more than 6"x6"x12". Ok, perhaps the sound would have gotten old after awhile, but boy, it sure sounded good while I was licking stamps and counting nickels. Chris Link to comment
beetlemania Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 It's hard to find a poor amp, an amp that won't make adequate speakers sound at least decent. Switching from my NAD integrated to my Ayre integrated made about as big a jump in sonics as switching from my B&W DM12s to Thiel 1.6s. That's my experience. I suspect I would prefer my Ayre driving my Vandersteen 2s over, say, an Arcam or Rega amp driving Wilson Sashas. Restated, to the extent that any "competent" amp will give good performance, the same might be said of speakers. YMMV. Roon ROCK (Roon 1.7; NUC7i3) > Ayre QB-9 Twenty > Ayre AX-5 Twenty > Thiel CS2.4SE (crossovers rebuilt with Clarity CSA and Multicap RTX caps, Mills MRA-12 resistors; ERSE and Jantzen coils; Cardas binding posts and hookup wire); Cardas and OEM power cables, interconnects, and speaker cables Link to comment
mav52 Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 A poor amp will likewise hold back the performance of decent speakers. Got that right The Truth Is Out There Link to comment
NOMBEDES Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 The recording. GIGO. The "best" system in the world will sound terrible with a bad recording. In any dispute the intensity of feeling is inversely proportional to the value of the issues at stake ~ Sayre's Law Link to comment
tne Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Yes you are, John - and I suspect Blake will agree. Lubrication is essential for a most pleasant aural experience. Friday night in Shanghai. Listening to Ella sings the Duke Ellington Songbook. And these - You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star Link to comment
realhifi Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 I suspect I would prefer my Ayre driving my Vandersteen 2s over, say, an Arcam or Rega amp driving Wilson Sashas. I've heard a little Naim Nait driving those Sasha's and it sounded great. It's really difficult to qualify which part of a hifi is more important than another really. Matching all the moving parts is probably the biggest challenge and usually the best place to start is the speakers I have found. David Link to comment
NOMBEDES Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Friday night in Shanghai. Listening to Ella sings the Duke Ellington Songbook.And these - \ hey TNE, is there any special equipment you have to use in China to keep the smog out of your equipment? In any dispute the intensity of feeling is inversely proportional to the value of the issues at stake ~ Sayre's Law Link to comment
Teresa Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 1) Music I love. 2) Clean ears. 3) Best speaker placement and best seating placement determined by painstaking moving speakers and setting location 1/16 of an inch at a time. It took me over a month to get everything close and six months to get them where I think they sound the best. 4) Stereo equipment I am comfortable with and enjoy listening to music through. 5) Finally, hope that everything keeps working and if it needs repair that it doesn't cost much, so I don't have to start this process all over again. I have dementia. I save all my posts in a text file I call Forums. I do a search in that file to find out what I said or did in the past. I still love music. Teresa Link to comment
PopPop Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Got that right I agree, and for that reason I put my amp and speakers at the same level of importance. My planar speakers didn't start to dazzle me until I replaced my old Rotel amp with Magnum Dynalab. That I ask questions? I am more concerned about being stupid than looking like I might be. Link to comment
InfernoSTi Posted February 22, 2014 Author Share Posted February 22, 2014 I would say that the "right amp" is speaker dependent. This is a case of impedance matching or system synergy. A low ohm load on planer speakers needs a great amp that is matched to play that load. A highly efficient 100 db speaker prefers that golden first watt often found with Class A amps ranging from 1 to 15 watts of power (tube or SS). To say "the amp doesn't matter" or "the speaker doesn't matter" misses the fact that a great amp with a great set of speakers can fail simply due to the design of each of them not matching. Switch amp or switch speakers and it all "works" again. It isn't that the speaker or amp were not great, it means that the pairing was not appropriate as a combination. This synergy is the key to a great system in many ways. Best, John Positive emotions enhance our musical experiences. Synology DS213+ NAS -> Auralic Vega w/Linear Power Supply -> Auralic Vega DAC (Symposium Jr rollerball isolation) -> XLR -> Auralic Taurus Pre -> XLR -> Pass Labs XA-30.5 power amplifier (on 4" maple and 4 Stillpoints) -> Hawthorne Audio Reference K2 Speakers in MTM configuration (Symposium Jr HD rollerball isolation) and Hawthorne Audio Bass Augmentation Baffles (Symposium Jr rollerball isolation) -> Bi-amped w/ two Rythmic OB plate amps) -> Extensive Room Treatments (x2 SRL Acoustics Prime 37 diffusion plus key absorption and extensive bass trapping) and Pi Audio Uberbuss' for the front end and amplification Link to comment
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