Instrument placement when listening

[bdiament]

...Oh, and one thing more, are all of those "issues" are also relevant to vinyl recordings?

 

 

Hi Krzysztof,

 

Since these things occur before the signals leave the microphones, in my view, they are relevant (and equally true) regardless of the final format.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

The Soundkeeper | Audio, Music, Recording, Playback

Barry Diament Audio

[mkrzych]

Hi Krzysztof,

 

Since these things occur before the signals leave the microphones, in my view, they are relevant (and equally true) regardless of the final format.

 

Best regards,

Barry

 

Well, that's for sure kind of the problem here as well and I will leave my last post here as the conclusion. Anyone want to add something here?

[Melvin]

Hello folks,

This thread becoming very interesting! I think we're touching the fundamental thing regarding the major step needed to bring to us so called audiophile recording - at least what we think is audiophile recording. What we get, we get the illusion (pleasant of course sometimes) that this and that is true audiophile sound and very, very close to the live experience or having (again), studio master file thinking that's the sound heard in the studio. In fact, most of that seems to be false.

 

Yes, interesting and enlightening.

 

All this makes me wonder why we use "live music" as the absolute reference point when it seems so many recordings aren't even close.

[Jud]

Yes, interesting and enlightening.

 

All this makes me wonder why we use "live music" as the absolute reference point when it seems so many recordings aren't even close.

 

Because it's a place where you can know there *is* a reference. You know what an acoustic guitar or human voice sounds like; does what is coming from your speakers sound like that? (If not, it could be the recording, your system...who knows?)

 

Kind of like watching a television, and instead of checking out some special effects spectacular to see if the picture is good, you tune to a channel with a "talking head" because you know what faces look like.

[Melvin]

Because it's a place where you can know there *is* a reference. You know what an acoustic guitar or human voice sounds like; does what is coming from your speakers sound like that? (If not, it could be the recording, your system...who knows?)

 

Kind of like watching a television, and instead of checking out some special effects spectacular to see if the picture is good, you tune to a channel with a "talking head" because you know what faces look like.

 

Yeah, I know .. must be my mood this morning after seeing more snow on the ground

[mkrzych]

Yeah, I know .. must be my mood this morning after seeing more snow on the ground

 

Don't worry, spring is coming soon ;-)

[Jud]

Yeah, I know .. must be my mood this morning after seeing more snow on the ground

 

Wait, when did you move into my neighborhood?

[InfernoSTi]

This is a great thread and a topic I have considered for a long time. I remember the first time someone told me my complaint was a "near mic'd" problem. That sent me down a bunny trail to figure out what he meant.

 

The 15' arms of the drummer are the worst to me…however, I don't mind if they are 7.5' instead. While a little exaggerated, the effect is pleasing. Kind of like a nice SET amp…a little color is pleasing, a lot is annoying.

 

This places "great" mastering on the list above high resolution, often times, anyway. A great example of a natural soundstage (to me) is the Van Morrison live album, "It's Too Late To Stop Now" which is so well mastered. I also like the Allman Bros Band…but two drummers makes the wide drumming believable!

 

Yes, interesting and enlightening.

 

All this makes me wonder why we use "live music" as the absolute reference point when it seems so many recordings aren't even close.

 

I think there are two answers to this besides what has already been stated.

 

First, the tone, timbre, attack/decay, and dynamics of live music is what sounds so amazing to me. This is the reference I am looking for, less so the soundstage.

 

Second, with small room amplified live music, you rarely get to hear any soundstage…it is truly a mono experience for the most part. I find I have to go the symphony or listen to acoustic music outdoors to really hear a soundstage.

 

Great thread!

 

John

[bdiament]

...This places "great" mastering on the list above high resolution, often times, anyway...

 

Hi John,

 

While many folks would be more than surprised at how much the soundstage can be altered in the mastering room, I would say this does *not* happen in 99% of cases. This is all determined long before the mastering room, long before the mix room (if there is a mix) and well before the sound has even been recorded.

 

What doesn't generally happen is a consideration of how the listener hears stereo. I've written about this elsewhere (such as in my Recording in Stereo articles and related blog entries) but in short, we utilize differences in amplitude, frequency and phase, as the brain compares the signals coming from both ears.

 

There is no way a recording, even with the best playback system, can emulate this if it was made with the idea that stereo can be achieved by combining multiple monaural pickups, arbitrarily combined into two discrete (mono) playback channels, devoid of any temporal coherence or any other coherent relationship to each other and further utilizing only one of the three types of cues our brains use to localize sounds. What I find amazing is that in spite of this, our brains will take those two unrelated mono signals and try to construct *something* vaguely recognizable. It might be fun but it isn't stereo.

 

Now, there are things I can do in the mastering room to take advantage of what our brains do when comparing the left and right signals -- and again, many will be quite surprised by just how much *can* be done with an already mixed stereo signal -- but this is not and won't ever be the same as getting all the cues correctly from the start, with the selection and placement of the mics.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

The Soundkeeper | Audio, Music, Recording, Playback

Barry Diament Audio

[InfernoSTi]

Hi Barry,

 

Thank you for the response. As ever, I seem to get an idea that is right in general and then learn that in specific it needs more analysis to be true! But that is the joy of learning, isn't it?

 

Can you comment on the "correct placement of mic's" in the context of a high quality soundstage such as the Van Morrison album mentioned in my post ("It's Too Late To Stop Now")?

 

It is a large band, perhaps 6-8 musicians on stage at the same time (varies by song). The soundstage is very real with instruments themselves being individually sized and located in a believable fashion. More importantly, these are also in proportion with each other. I find that I can believe the violin is located where I hear it and it is conveyed in the same "size" relative to the singer, drummer, guitarist, etc.

 

This must be very careful setup to record not too near or too far, as well as to mix them into each other expertly.

 

Best,

John

 

P.S. If I could, I would now edit my earlier post to read "great mic placement and great mastering" or some such….

[bdiament]

...Can you comment on the "correct placement of mic's" in the context of a high quality soundstage such as the Van Morrison album mentioned in my post ("It's Too Late To Stop Now")?

 

It is a large band, perhaps 6-8 musicians on stage at the same time (varies by song). The soundstage is very real with instruments themselves being individually sized and located in a believable fashion. More importantly, these are also in proportion with each other. I find that I can believe the violin is located where I hear it and it is conveyed in the same "size" relative to the singer, drummer, guitarist, etc.

 

This must be very careful setup to record not too near or too far, as well as to mix them into each other expertly...

 

Hi John,

 

Though I'm a long-time fan of Van and have many of his albums (and have probably heard the one you refer to), since I don't have this particular album and don't know it well, I can't say anything with regard to the mic placement. (Generally speaking, I find accuracy increases as the number of mics decreases.)

 

From what you're saying though, it appears whoever did this did a very nice job.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

The Soundkeeper | Audio, Music, Recording, Playback

Barry Diament Audio

[Jud]

Hi John,

 

Though I'm a long-time fan of Van and have many of his albums (and have probably heard the one you refer to), since I don't have this particular album and don't know it well, I can't say anything with regard to the mic placement. (Generally speaking, I find accuracy increases as the number of mics decreases.)

 

From what you're saying though, it appears whoever did this did a very nice job.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

The Soundkeeper | Audio, Music, Recording, Playback

Barry Diament Audio

 

Probably helps with the lead vocal mic at least that at the time of the recording Van was in his "World's Greatest Singing Statue" phase as a live performer.

[burnspbesq]

Recently, in playing around with and evaluating the BSG Technologies reveel, I had some experiences with soundstaging that were, to say the least, very interesting.

 

Yeah, Right: A Skeptic Plays with the BSG Technologies reveel

[astrotoy]

A few years ago, Chris C had the first and so far only Computer Audiophile Symposium in Berkeley,CA at the old Fantasy Studios. Keith Johnson was there and did a recording with a small group (I think 2 musicians piano and drum kit, maybe there was a third). Anyway the attendees were invited to go into the studio with the musicians and see exactly what Keith did to set up the several mikes, including some nice tricks to create some reverb in the rather dead studio. He then mixed it down to two channels in real time from the control room. I was in one of the two recording sessions standing near the musicians and then for the second session stood behind Keith in the control room. As I remember it was all of Keith's famed electronics and he recorded everything using one of his Model Two's. We then almost immediately heard the playback in the main listening room with very nice (Magico?) speakers and fine electronics. The big shock to me was that the recording sounded like musicians in a club- atmospheric, with the sound of the instruments in a real acoustical space, where I could easily picture the piano and drums. The reality was that the set up in the recording studio looked nothing like that. It was a fiction, much better than the reality of recording studio!

 

Now that is very different from the typical great orchestral recordings from Decca in the golden era where the main sounds of the orchestra are from three mikes (the famous Decca Tree) with a couple of outrigger mikes and a few supplemental mikes to highlight sections of the orchestra. Those recordings quite accurately reflect the location of the instruments in a real acoustical space.

 

So it wouldn't be a surprise to me that the photos from a recording studio session are an accurate representation of the recording session, but do not sound like the recording.

 

Larry