ripping the subjectivist way...?

[PopPop]

@wgscott - thanks for that. Struther Martin was a great character actor, loved his part in Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid.

 

WB

[esldude]

 

I found this comment on the Linn Forum from one of its engineers which you may be interested in

 

We have done extensive measurements on power supply disturbance recently, and have compared results for both FLAC and WAV streaming. Our findings are as follows :

 

1. If we measure the power rail that feeds the main processor in the DS we can clearly see identifiable disturbance patterns due to audio decoding and network activity. These patterns do look different for WAV and FLAC - WAV shows more clearly defined peaks due to regular network activity and processing, while FLAC shows more broadband disturbance due to increased (but more random) processor activity.

 

2. If we measure the power rails that feed the audio clock and the DAC we see no evidence of any processor related disturbances. There is no measurable difference (down to a noise floor measured in micro-volts) between FLAC and WAV in any of the audio power rails.

 

3. Highly accurate measurements of clock jitter and audio distortion/noise also show no difference between WAV and FLAC.

 

As it seems less activity, by my pc, seems to help towards more enjoyable playback, dbpower amp seems a reasonable thing to trial :-) making the processor have a more even working life, rather than a more erratic flac decoading life..

I shall have a listen and see ;-)

 

Many thanks for all the comments, especially all the tips on what I can try.

Cheers for now

Mark

 

Thanks for the quote from Linn.

 

I do find your conclusion a bit curious.

 

Point #1 about the PS rails on the CPU differing is not at all surprising.

 

Point #2 and #3 would surprise some. But given they find no difference in the DA clock or audio output from the activity of either WAV or FLAC, then why would you not conclude just go FLAC and have nothing to worry about?

[sandyk]

Thanks for the quote from Linn.

 

I do find your conclusion a bit curious.

 

Point #1 about the PS rails on the CPU differing is not at all surprising.

 

Point #2 and #3 would surprise some. But given they find no difference in the DA clock or audio output from the activity of either WAV or FLAC, then why would you not conclude just go FLAC and have nothing to worry about?

 

Since when have measurements taken precedence over what many members are reliably able to confirm hearing under non sighted conditions ?

The simple fact is that they did say that WAV shows more clearly defined peaks due to regular network activity and processing, I have already mentioned previously that I hear an improvement when the Broadband modem is unplugged, and network activity is no longer involved. I have confirmation from a couple of Sydney EEs that this does result in a better sounding rip, and it seems highly likely that this will almost certainly apply to playback as well.

[coxhaus]

Wow lots gone on since I last had a read :-o last two videos :-)

 

 

Any way, almost got round to ripping, think I have settled upon a plan:

 

Going to try the windows 8 machine (as suggested) but with fidelizer, and some iso feet, (check it has twin run sata cables) and compare to the xp safe mode iso feet rips, I'm expecting it to be rather difficult to tell any difference, from what has been mentioned. Will see if I can find the same cd drive. If I hear no difference it will be pleasing as I can then use the win8 machine, that will be a lot easier than rigging up the XP machine to a win8 network. (going from XP to win8 was a noticeable improvement in playback, so my! (possibly daft) logic says ripping may be good too ;-)

 

Been looking into flac compression levels, and learnt that 0 compression is not exactly 0 compression, so plan to trial the dbpower amp wav flac wrapper, (after first few comparisons XP/win8) something I came across in the Linn forum someone posted I found rather interesting:

 

I found this comment on the Linn Forum from one of its engineers which you may be interested in

 

We have done extensive measurements on power supply disturbance recently, and have compared results for both FLAC and WAV streaming. Our findings are as follows :

 

1. If we measure the power rail that feeds the main processor in the DS we can clearly see identifiable disturbance patterns due to audio decoding and network activity. These patterns do look different for WAV and FLAC - WAV shows more clearly defined peaks due to regular network activity and processing, while FLAC shows more broadband disturbance due to increased (but more random) processor activity.

 

2. If we measure the power rails that feed the audio clock and the DAC we see no evidence of any processor related disturbances. There is no measurable difference (down to a noise floor measured in micro-volts) between FLAC and WAV in any of the audio power rails.

 

3. Highly accurate measurements of clock jitter and audio distortion/noise also show no difference between WAV and FLAC.

 

As it seems less activity, by my pc, seems to help towards more enjoyable playback, dbpower amp seems a reasonable thing to trial :-) making the processor have a more even working life, rather than a more erratic flac decoading life..

I shall have a listen and see ;-)

 

Many thanks for all the comments, especially all the tips on what I can try.

Cheers for now

Mark

 

 

This is interesting as I stated a while ago I feel like I have a blacker background when I unplug the network cable.

[esldude]

Since when have measurements taken precedence over what many members are reliably able to confirm hearing under non sighted conditions ?

The simple fact is that they did say that WAV shows more clearly defined peaks due to regular network activity and processing, I have already mentioned previously that I hear an improvement when the Broadband modem is unplugged, and network activity is no longer involved. I have confirmation from a couple of Sydney EEs that this does result in a better sounding rip, and it seems highly likely that this will almost certainly apply to playback as well.

 

Well here you have the usual situation. Linn supplies measurements showing the CPU has different PS rail fluctuations. Not at all surprising in any way. The clock lines and DA output measure as not effected whatsoever. So you accept the measurements that fit your sighted listening, but ignore those which don't. In fact the measurements in no way support your results.

 

BTW, your definition of members reliably confirming what they hear under non-sighted conditions as far as I can tell, in fact are nothing of the sort. They are under sighted conditions. This is at least the second time you said, unsighted when you actually don't have that. Or do you now, unlike a few days ago have unsighted results? Or will you like last time I asked get incensed because you don't have unsighted confirmations?

 

If the person posting the Linn measurements thought them worthwhile info, the info indicates there is nothing causing a signal change in the output between either WAV and FLAC. So the idea to go ahead and stick with WAV is something of a disconnect with the info supplied. His right to do so. I just wondered what the reasoning was considering the measured results.

[esldude]

This is interesting as I stated a while ago I feel like I have a blacker background when I unplug the network cable.

 

I get blacker backgrounds when I reduce the electrical pollution of room lighting by turning off the lights.

[coxhaus]

I get blacker backgrounds when I reduce the electrical pollution of room lighting by turning off the lights.

 

I thought it was a network cable, I guess I pulled the wrong one.

[Gadgety]

I thought it was a network cable, I guess I pulled the wrong one.

This is a very entertaining thread. Thank you, and esldude, for making me laugh.

[Deaf Cat]

Thanks for the quote from Linn.

 

I do find your conclusion a bit curious.

 

Point #1 about the PS rails on the CPU differing is not at all surprising.

 

Point #2 and #3 would surprise some. But given they find no difference in the DA clock or audio output from the activity of either WAV or FLAC, then why would you not conclude just go FLAC and have nothing to worry about?

 

Measurements are on a Linn product, (posted comments as thought they may be of interest) mine is a normal pc so who knows what the measurements are on that.

 

As it has been mentioned differences have been heard between flac and wav.

 

So my conclusion is, I will give it a go too, just to see/hear if there is a difference between flac and wav. I would not have the faintest idea how to measure jitter and processor rails, as I listen to the music with my ears, I shall let them do the measuring for me, and see if I prefer wav or flac, simple ;-)

 

Cheers

[Deaf Cat]

Well, on the day to day win8 pc EAC would not run if fidelizer stopped services, so ran it on audiophile mode, changed the dvd drive sata cable to a twin Lenovo sata cable, only had the one so the OS and newly installed music hdd had stock Lenovo sata cables, unplugged the broadband router from the wall, and put the day to day pc on iso feet.

 

Ripped to the internal hdd, and then copied 4 tracks over the network to the hdd in the win8 music pc, rescanned the music library, made a play list of 8, 4 rips from the XP safe mode iso feet pc and same tracks ripped on the win8 fidelizer iso feet pc.

 

Difference was there but small, I prefered the win8 rips; slightly more alive sounding :-)

 

Never done a blind listening test before but due to the amount of bits is bits arguments, I left the room to help the kids, do breakfast, watch a bit of tv, etc when returned to the room had a listen, and decided in my mind if it was an XP rip or a win8 rip I was listening to, and then looked up to check. Three times I did this and 3 times I got it right.

 

So that leads me on to the next step of testing :-)

 

Alex, I printed out your CLC filter circuit diagram for hdd's and dvd drives a while back, but being a total soldering beginner I'm not 100% sure of the circuit, I hope you don't mind but I have drawn over the 12V part and wondered if you could say if I have it right in my mind as to how one would make the circuit up:Sandyk clc.pdf

 

Many Thanks

Mark

[sandyk]

Hi Mark

Yes, that is correct. If you have a SATA to 4 pin Molex lead then you can simply cut it in half and retain the same colours.

The differences will be quite subtle , but these things all add up.

Kind Regards

Alex

 

[Deaf Cat]

Wonderful thanks Alex :-)

 

Yes all the little improvements do add up.

 

I may even try some contact enhancer on all the push fit connections in the pc... worked nicely on the push in op amps in my pre/dac, another little +

 

Cheers for now

Best Regards

Mark

[topofdaworldma]

Don

No I haven't sent the original HDD away, as that would mean buying a new one to replace it. I have however also sent a couple of Corsair Voyagers over recent years with the comparison files on them to European members of another forum to be passed around. Many of those members also had the benefit of a similar JLH PSU to that I am using with the Corsair Voyagers, as a result of a well received DIY project that I posted in another forum. After a while they appear to fail to get passed on to the next recipient.

The rest of what you are saying is basically correct. I will need to look closer at your post after I eventually manage to get breakfast and pop some pills. I need a shot of caffeine right now, it's now after 10Am! (I was up at 7.15AM .)

 

Regards

Alex

 

 

P.S.

There have now been > 800 JLH PSU Add-on PCBs been made available worldwide.

 

As I fit that description I can personally vouch for the differences achieved between files using many of the described methods, these I have verified/reproduced on my own lesser system.

 

If you have genuinely tried these to the letter and hear no difference then don't worry, move on, you don't need it.

Otherwise, enjoy the improvement to be had.

 

We all listen differently and have different priorities in the way we listen/rip. The majority of my rips use the installed extra methods but I may not go the extra mile with safe-mode, unplugging other USB devices and the ADSL modem if the original is not really of any outstanding recording quality in the first place.

I will with the really good ones though, it's worth it to me and for others.

 

Until definitive reasons are found and measured as to why these methods work (for some) I'm happy with just the end result.