SOTM USB card vs PPAstudio USB Card v2

[TJHUB]

I've owned both the PCI, and PCIe versions of the SOtM cards, and now have the PPA v2 card. I switched to the PPA card because I couldn't get the driver for the SOtM PCIe card to work with Windows Server 2012 in core mode no matter what I tried. IMO, the PPA card sounds every bit as good, or better (read clearer, and smoother) sounding than the SOtM cards. But even if they sound the same, the PPA card is a steal compared to the SOtM cards. I have 2 friends that switched from SOtM cards to PPA cards, and neither of them would switch back.

 

I wanted to post this in case this latest discussion was confusing anyone considering these cards. Both are an absolute necessity to get great sound using USB output.

 

If I was looking for something "better," I'd be looking into the JCAT USB card from the JPLAY people. It's pricey though.

[sligolad]

I have all 3 cards mentioned and my ranking goes like this:

 

1 JCat USB

2 PPA USB V2

3 SOTM USB

 

I did not even try to sell the SOTM card as I would have difficulty stating that it would make an improvement in sound based on my listening.

With the other 2 cards that would not be an issue!!

Cheers,

Pearse.

[mourip]

There is enough chest thumping in this thread to arouse King Kong :-)

 

There is a great video called "Wine for Dummies" that is narrated by John Cleese of Monty Python fame. In one segment he has a party in which he has paper cups with lids on them filled with various wines that are more or less expensive(acclaimed). Each person rates the wine without knowing what it is. The results are that some of the "poor" wines get rated well and the "best" wine often does not. Some folks could not even tell the difference between red and white by taste. In the end the wisdom is that the "best" wine is the one you like.

 

I do not see this as any different than audio. In the end people buy(build) and keep equipment that produces a sound that they personally like. While it is true that science and theory play a part in getting there, listening is the key.

 

So what is the best equipment? Seems to me it is that which sounds best to you. Very subjective. If it were not we would all own the exact same system!

 

I have a PPA on order. I will report back on how I think it sounds in my own system. Subjective ...a bit like cooking.

[InfernoSTi]

Some folks could not even tell the difference between red and white by taste.

 

This kind of example is really too bad.

 

There are people who study wine and can taste the differences at a level that is an indication of real expertise and differentiation. The "Practical Tasting" section of the Master Sommelier test requires, for example, the ability to clearly and accurately describe six different wines within twenty-five minutes, including identify grape varieties, country of origin, district and appellation of origin, and vintages of the wines tasted. This is a real test that is blind and people pass it after years of study and preparation.

 

Just because someone hasn't put in the effort to learn what they are doing isn't proof that there isn't a very real difference between wines. In other words, just because someone who hasn't studied or otherwise prepared themselves doesn't mean that there aren't real differences.

 

The more you study, the more you try, the more you learn to articulate first to yourself then to others, the more you appreciate what you might not have otherwise even noticed. And some people have more talent to begin with, as well. The same is true with audio...

 

Best,

John

[TJHUB]

There is enough chest thumping in this thread to arouse King Kong :-)

 

There is a great video called "Wine for Dummies" that is narrated by John Cleese of Monty Python fame. In one segment he has a party in which he has paper cups with lids on them filled with various wines that are more or less expensive(acclaimed). Each person rates the wine without knowing what it is. The results are that some of the "poor" wines get rated well and the "best" wine often does not. Some folks could not even tell the difference between red and white by taste. In the end the wisdom is that the "best" wine is the one you like.

 

I do not see this as any different than audio. In the end people buy(build) and keep equipment that produces a sound that they personally like. While it is true that science and theory play a part in getting there, listening is the key.

 

So what is the best equipment? Seems to me it is that which sounds best to you. Very subjective. If it were not we would all own the exact same system!

 

I have a PPA on order. I will report back on how I think it sounds in my own system. Subjective ...a bit like cooking.

 

Since what these cards seem to do is clean up the USB output by improving clarity, the improvement should not be perceived as subjective. Which one performs better should be identifiable. What's subjective is whether the improvement is worth the price.

[mourip]

This kind of example is really too bad.

 

There are people who study wine and can taste the differences at a level that is an indication of real expertise and differentiation. The "Practical Tasting" section of the Master Sommelier test requires, for example, the ability to clearly and accurately describe six different wines within twenty-five minutes, including identify grape varieties, country of origin, district and appellation of origin, and vintages of the wines tasted. This is a real test that is blind and people pass it after years of study and preparation.

 

Just because someone hasn't put in the effort to learn what they are doing isn't proof that there isn't a very real difference between wines. In other words, just because someone who hasn't studied or otherwise prepared themselves doesn't mean that there aren't real differences.

 

The more you study, the more you try, the more you learn to articulate first to yourself then to others, the more you appreciate what you might not have otherwise even noticed. And some people have more talent to begin with, as well. The same is true with audio...

 

Best,

John

 

Very good point but I am thinking that a Master Somm can only tell what the differences are, not really if the wine is "better". They are masters of wine discrimination. Better is subjective. "Good" is determined by a bunch of folks with similar tastes agreeing. For example, I do not really like Bordeaux. In a blind tasting I might be able to identify it and possibly even tell that it was a high quality vintage but that does not mean that I would like it. On the other hand I love Rioja and hardly ever met one I did not enjoy...even cheap ones.

 

I have changed a ton of things in my system over the years that made an audible difference but I am the only one to determine if that was a "good" change or not. There is really no absolute to compare to, just what pleases us. That is all I am trying to say. The arguing about how something should not sound good based upon theory without ever hearing it seems a bit shaky to me.

 

I could never go back to listening to the system I had even a month ago. Once I upgraded to a "CAPS-like" PC with Windows Server 2012 and AO I subjectively moved into a world of greatly enhanced subjective musical pleasure. I am intellectually interested in how changing the OS could make such a big change but only really interested in how much enjoyment it is giving me. I was not trying to say that there are no objective differences, just that all that matters is that you are happy with the sound you are getting. being intellectually stimulated in the process is like icing on the cake however it will not take you far if you do not like what you are hearing. The sport seems to be using your mind to find things that make the sound better for you.

 

Most of us with audiophilia are trapped in the endless cycle of hoping to incrementally improve our sound. We are optimists. It is a sort of ratchet effect locking one into usually more expensive and well thought out gear. Yes, I did say "well thought out". I do believe in science:-) Ours is an endless pursuit that does not seem to plague normal music lovers. In the end however only one person (or perhaps your mate) needs to be satisfied with the result...

 

Climbs down from soap box...

[mourip]

Since what these cards seem to do is clean up the USB output by improving clarity, the improvement should not be perceived as subjective. Which one performs better should be identifiable. What's subjective is whether the improvement is worth the price.

 

I agree that if something sounds better it is probably measurable or at least follows a logical principle even if it is not at first clear.

 

I also agree that "worth the price" is subjective... at least if it falls within your financial reach. I think that a Pass Labs SIT2 amp is worth the price but I cannot afford it :-)

[BobSherman]

Hey angry man - using your own words - "Just to follow up... When did I say that?" I never make sound judgements as they indeed do require the DBT which you will never dare to take.

 

Perhaps you should calm down and read properly first.

 

 

No anger, just a dislike of stupidity.

 

"What this "mod" does is the complete opposite - sharp edges of the clock board are being blurred by a bandwidth-limiting transformer, adding further jitter to the signal by catching all the PC EMI/RFI noise induced in the huge transformer"

 

This is what you said...Should we be that stupid to think that your comment has nothing to do with sound? What does your INCORRECT assumption of more jitter mean? Does it mean the computer will jump up and down and vibrate around the room, or does your comment on jitter affect sound???

 

As far a DBT goes the only people you should be chatting with is the hydrogen audio crowd, they think the same. We are not calibrated microphones, we are human and have a mind. When listening can only be done with DBT you misunderstand the importance and power of the mind and the human experience.

[Priaptor]

I have all 3 cards mentioned and my ranking goes like this:

 

1 JCat USB

2 PPA USB V2

3 SOTM USB

 

I did not even try to sell the SOTM card as I would have difficulty stating that it would make an improvement in sound based on my listening.

With the other 2 cards that would not be an issue!!

Cheers,

Pearse.

 

Well I would have agreed with you three weeks ago as that was my ranking albeit with the PANG V1.

 

I relegated the SOTM to the "to be sold" pile. Along comes my Core Technologies Kaia dual rail linear power supply and the shoot out begins. The SOTM shines beyond belief. From my perch the SOTM with Kaia can't be touched. Timbre, side to side and front to back imaging, bass control and overall accuracy is right it is scary.

 

With a lesser LPS or battery supply the other two may indeed be the right choice but with something like the Core Technology Kaia feeding the SOTM it is beyond anything I have ever heard in my system.

 

I use the Light Harmonics Lightspeed USB.

[mourip]

My PPA USB card arrived and a couple of question came to mind. I am running Server 2012 R2 in Core mode and I turned off Plug n' Pray.

 

Does the card require drivers in WS 2012? Do I need to exit Core mode and turn on P&P for the card to be picked up by the OS?

 

Thanks!

 

Paul

[tranz]

Well I would have agreed with you three weeks ago as that was my ranking albeit with the PANG V1.

 

I relegated the SOTM to the "to be sold" pile. Along comes my Core Technologies Kaia dual rail linear power supply and the shoot out begins. The SOTM shines beyond belief. From my perch the SOTM with Kaia can't be touched. Timbre, side to side and front to back imaging, bass control and overall accuracy is right it is scary.

 

With a lesser LPS or battery supply the other two may indeed be the right choice but with something like the Core Technology Kaia feeding the SOTM it is beyond anything I have ever heard in my system.

 

I use the Light Harmonics Lightspeed USB.

 

Thanks for sharing. Externally powering as much as possible via LPSU and reducing as much electrical taxing of the computer (incl. e.g. Background processes, HD,etc.) really makes a difference I have found as well.

 

If I remember correctly you had moved from Mac to PC and liked the improvement in audio. Not sure how much Mac tweaking you had done, but I think a key tweak, which sadly is unavailable to Mac OS, is the SoTM USB powered externally. This SoTM combines the filtering, clocking and lower electrical draw benefits.

 

Cheers

[ALRAINBOW]

May I ask what psu did I use for the PPA ?

[Priaptor]

May I ask what psu did I use for the PPA ?

 

I am not sure if the question was for me but I was/am using Core Technologies Kaia LPS.

[Priaptor]

Thanks for sharing. Externally powering as much as possible via LPSU and reducing as much electrical taxing of the computer (incl. e.g. Background processes, HD,etc.) really makes a difference I have found as well.

 

If I remember correctly you had moved from Mac to PC and liked the improvement in audio. Not sure how much Mac tweaking you had done, but I think a key tweak, which sadly is unavailable to Mac OS, is the SoTM USB powered externally. This SoTM combines the filtering, clocking and lower electrical draw benefits.

 

Cheers

 

Yes I gave up on MacOS long ago. I am extremely happy with Windows Server 2012 R2 with AudioPhil. High quality electric is really important to all cards. However, I was not ready for how much better the SOTM became with the Kaia

[TJHUB]

Yes I gave up on MacOS long ago. I am extremely happy with Windows Server 2012 R2 with AudioPhil. High quality electric is really important to all cards. However, I was not ready for how much better the SOTM became with the Kaia

 

are you running a single PC in core mode?

[ALRAINBOW]

Yes I was looking for a comparison is PSU for the two cards. I have been told the PPA card is the card to choose. In all,of this is choice and in that is the point of view on what we think as individuals as better. Although some choices are just obvious but I also feel system dependicy also has a hand in this. I own bothan offramp loaded and there PSU and the ap1/PP. I have them for a year or more. I put blame on almost all dac makers as not caring enough about PSU and cleaning up the USB on our dacs. Having spent the money on them was the best cash I ever spent . The increase in low end and treble clarity is amazing. I cannot understand how someone can make a dac and not consider this issue.

To buy a dac at 2000 or more and no choice but to spend much more to obtain far better quality is just not cool.

Al

[Priaptor]

are you running a single PC in core mode?

 

Yes.

 

I have an MSB Diamond Plus. Before I the MSB came out with their latest ASIO driver, I found the DAC sounded best with a dual PC JPlay. However, once they released their latest ASIO driver I found JRiver on an optimized Windows machine, initially 8 then 2012 R2 was better than JPlay.

 

So now I am running Core, AudioPhil using JRiver with MSB's ASIO driver.

[ALRAINBOW]

I own a msb platinum pro , galaxy clock with UMT plus and diamond and dual transport PSU,s. The sound is truly amazing. But I ordered a no holes barred server setup from Phil

and cannot wait to hear it. I also have a lampi level 7 coming as well. Now the lampi was improved with the offramp or AP1/PP. SO I am sure it will benifit from this as well. Audiophile if you would be so kind to feel in the blanks on what I ordered please here for me please . With all the money we spend it was about 6k more for top shelf Althogh I have not heard it yet as it's not here . Hurry up phile hahaha

also a little off topic. There is two recordings I highly reccomned for us dsd people.

One is Elvis stele 57 essentials vol 2 find it on dsd amazing also the new opus 3 dsd it has house of the rising sun a female vocal . These two albums are Among the best out there . A must for us.

Al

[Priaptor]

I own a msb platinum pro , galaxy clock with UMT plus and diamond and dual transport PSU,s. The sound is truly amazing. But I ordered a no holes barred server setup from Phil

and cannot wait to hear it. I also have a lampi level 7 coming as well. Now the lampi was improved with the offramp or AP1/PP. SO I am sure it will benifit from this as well. Audiophile if you would be so kind to feel in the blanks on what I ordered please here for me please . With all the money we spend it was about 6k more for top shelf Althogh I have not heard it yet as it's not here . Hurry up phile hahaha

also a little off topic. There is two recordings I highly reccomned for us dsd people.

One is Elvis stele 57 essentials vol 2 find it on dsd amazing also the new opus 3 dsd it has house of the rising sun a female vocal . These two albums are Among the best out there . A must for us.

Al

 

Phil or Paul Pang?

 

I know Pang is selling a knockout server but wasn't aware of Phil doing the same.

[ALRAINBOW]

Both really I asked phil to help pick it all,out for me. Really nice guy for sure.

Al

[tranz]

Hi Priaptor and ALRAINBOW,

 

Since both of you have MSBs I was curious whether you ended up with the MSB USB input. Many months ago I was able to listen to one and was not impressed with the USB input. They have a very expensive power supply, but then the USB input seems like a great way to get noise into the DAC. But perhaps the SotM and PPAs fix any noise upstream.

 

Cheers

[ALRAINBOW]

Absolutely USB if taken care of with a card is greatly improved. When I bought the stack I bought the UMT plus with it. So I only streamed over ip from a nas with SS drives. When I use USB it is for dsd 128 only . Now since I only own the stack from late last year the newer USB driver was always around. The only USB improvement was a firmware update .

regarding the PSU,s yes they are very large . But the USB and infect any input is greatly cared for and resampled or reclocked . Vince there rep told of many things going on inside to lower the jitter . Also power supply is very important not the PSU but the mains power.

It should be from a home run and min 10 gauge. If you wish I can post it here .

So before any of our improved interconnects and power cords are used how power gets there is very important. Now although I did all that the plan illustrated I never did an A/B test to try and hear a change.

If you wish ask and I will,post it .

al

[TJHUB]

Yes.

 

I have an MSB Diamond Plus. Before I the MSB came out with their latest ASIO driver, I found the DAC sounded best with a dual PC JPlay. However, once they released their latest ASIO driver I found JRiver on an optimized Windows machine, initially 8 then 2012 R2 was better than JPlay.

 

So now I am running Core, AudioPhil using JRiver with MSB's ASIO driver.

 

 

Thanks. I only asked because I could never get my SOtM PCIe card to work in core mode. I know others have, but couldn't.

[ALRAINBOW]

The PPA card works in core mode others have complained about the sotom and core mode is well

al

[Priaptor]

The PPA card works in core mode others have complained about the sotom and core mode is well

al

 

I had issues with the JCAT card and my motherboard on one computer but never an issue with the SOTM in core mode or either of my MOBOs.

 

The LPS I am now using has made a tremendous difference in my system that I wasn't quite expecting as was already using a pretty good power source but I am again amazed BUT NOT surprised at how much certain things matter that one would never have imagined.