Expensive vs. Moderately Priced.

[Paul R]

"In my perception" as you say I do not see a reason for boutique power cords to exist... I have to repeat that I believe that quality components manufacturers know if a good engineering concept is there, and are conscentious enough to sell their components with a power cord that will NOT degrade the performance of their products, even more so as a good power cord will NOT cost them hundreds of dollars (let me not comment about thousand dollars power cords)[/Quote]

 

And yet, changing in a $70 power cable does, when all else has been done, often add a noticeable improvement. Same as upgrading a power supply, changing in speaker cables, upgrading an amp, DAC, cartridge, turntable, preamp, or... well, you get the idea. As our Barrows is wont to say - Everything Matters. In this case, power cables do too.

 

The range of opinion here varies from yours and Mayhems to about where Forrest and I are to the more extreme members who have found improvements with $1000 power cables and the like.

 

The funny thing is - it is exceedingly probable that every single one of us is correct, from one viewpoint or another.

 

 

 

The pain does not set in at any price point because I'm not replacing the supplied power cords for the above mentioned reasons.[/Quote]

 

The only real reason I can see to spend money on power cords is because it makes your system sound better to you. And that is also a sufficient reason to do so, I think. You may of course, think differently.

 

-Paul

[Allan F]

...I believe that most (if not all) hardware manufacturers know their business and are conscentious enough to sell their components with a power cord that will NOT degrade the performance of their product.

 

I agree with the first part of your statement but believe the conclusion you draw is incorrect. Rather, IMO, equipment manufacturers know that most buyers are going to replace the generic cord with some aftermarket cord, and therefore are not concerned that the cheap one they provide will not get the most out of their product. In fact, a number of equipment manufacturers will recommend specific brands of cords that they have found to work well with their products. And they are probably confident that the remaining objectivist naysayers' bias wouldn't allow them to hear the difference in any case.

[gmgraves]

You've got to be joking ! These kinds of posts pop up everywhere from the usual suspects.

 

It's true. This is a public forum. Everybody is entitled to voice their opinion, no matter how factual or fact-free that opinion might be. Obviously you have a problem with opinions that differ from yours, so, for the sake of your blood pressure, you're probably better off avoiding them!

 

Really ? Then stop treating the majority of C.A. readers as brainless idiots/ignorant people being led like lambs to the slaughter.

In case you haven't noticed, the mains supplies these days are heavily polluted due the proliferation of switch mode powered devices, and even the huge amounts of radiated rubbish from many modern LED lighting solutions. Try looking at the mains supply in many homes where they have several computers operating at the same time.

 

And you still haven't answered my question: What does any of this have to do with cable lifts and other audio mouse-milk? And again, I'm not treating anyone like an idiot!

[gmgraves]

The topic of this thread is power cords. Many people are using expensive power cords to try and clean up noise in the power going to various components.

I would have thought that further separation between mains leads and loudspeaker leads, as well as between power leads and interconnects is a legitimate alternative to trying to improve the last 2 metres of a mains power supply ?

A high quality mains filter, or even isolation transformers are further alternatives to boutique mains leads.The best method is likely to be to improve the interface between the mains cable and the transformer itself.

 

I don't think anyone has a problem with the wisdom behind separating mains cords from signal-carrying cords, especially where low-level signals are concerned. Also. no one should have a problem with one taking extraordinary measures to eliminate RFI if that's the problem. It just seems that these things are fairly tangental to the problem that you seem to have with me.

[gmgraves]

And yet, changing in a $70 power cable does, when all else has been done, often add a noticeable improvement. Same as upgrading a power supply, changing in speaker cables, upgrading an amp, DAC, cartridge, turntable, preamp, or... well, you get the idea. As our Barrows is wont to say - Everything Matters. In this case, power cables do too.

 

The range of opinion here varies from yours and Mayhems to about where Forrest and I are to the more extreme members who have found improvements with $1000 power cables and the like.

 

The funny thing is - it is exceedingly probable that every single one of us is correct, from one viewpoint or another.

 

 

 

 

 

The only real reason I can see to spend money on power cords is because it makes your system sound better to you. And that is also a sufficient reason to do so, I think. You may of course, think differently.

 

-Paul

 

 

Paul: Will you or somebody please explain to me exactly what one of these fat mains cords is supposed to do and how it does it? What bothers me is that there is NO information available. The manufacturers of these, often, very expensive cables have "white papers" that are full of so much gobbledegook, nonsense, and bullpuckey science that it would have to make even Enid Lumley skeptical! Are there any formal DBT studies that show that these things actually make any noticeable difference? Shunyata says that you need to think of power cables as the "...first six feet of power that your system sees..." Isn't it the last six feet - I.E. the final length of a (perhaps) many hundred mile journey that your mains supply has taken just to get from the generator to your house? What can a power cord possibly do in six feet to counter what the environment has already done to your mains supply waveform in all the previous miles? And finally, what does the $3000 Shunyata 'Zitron' Anaconda do that their own 'Venom-3' (at $75) won't. Are they saying that in order to get the most from your stereo system, you NEED a $3000 mains cord? I really don't understand anything except the bling factor that a fancy thick line cord might provide. (I'm not picking on Shunyayta, here. I just picked two of their products because I was already on their web page looking for an explanation.)

 

I'm not saying that if I tried one of these things*, that I wouldn't hear any difference, we know about that route. But would I still hear a difference in a DBT or ABX test? That's the proof of the pudding. Isn't this just a matter of "look good, feel good"?

 

No, I'm not going to plunk down $3000 to try a Shunyata Anaconda. Somebody want to send me one? I'll try it. I truly will.

[Allan F]

Isn't this just a matter of "look good, feel good"?

 

No, it's a matter of "sounds better". And I don't really care why, although John Swenson did offer an opinion on the subject. I can't speak for others, but I don't give a hoot what they look like.

[mayhem13]

I've been using the stock power cords for my Marshall JCM and vintage PLEXI as well as my Boogie and Soldano. Wonder if Jimmy Hendrix or Clapton or Stevie Ray used high end cords? Anyone got a line on Rick Wakeman or Herbie Hancock? Their keyboards may have sounded a bit better with $1k power cords too!

[gmgraves]

No, it's a matter of "sounds better".

 

 

Are you sure? Are you 100% sure that it's not expectational bias that you're hearing? Because the electronics and logic of the situation strongly suggests that this is what you are experiencing.

[Allan F]

Are you sure? Are you 100% sure that it's not expectational bias that you're hearing? Because the electronics and logic of the situation strongly suggests that this is what you are experiencing.

 

Absolutely no doubt whatsoever. The difference was not subtle and was of a nature and degree that it could not possibly have been the product of expectation bias. I was not the only one to observe it. The effect on the bass response, in particular, thereafter became a notable characteristic of my system.

[Paul R]

No, I don't think I will venture into that ground, for several reasons.

 

So why is so important to you to prove that power cords don't make a difference?

 

Tell you a story, I determined to spend up to $200 to prove the idea of power cords making a difference was silly, wrong, and just plain idiotic. Even f they did make physical differences, I expected any changes to be well below the level of audibility.

 

So I bought some Venom's from the Cable Co. Plugged them in. Damn if they did not make a difference. That was most certainly NOT expectation bias, or more accurately, the results were not at all what I expected.

 

But regardless of any of my experience or theories - you only need to prove or disprove it for yourself. And to do that, the only reasonably method, in terms of time and expense, is to just try a few and give them a listen.

 

-Paul

 

 

Paul: Will you or somebody please explain to me exactly what one of these fat mains cords is supposed to do and how it does it? What bothers me is that there is NO information available. The manufacturers of these, often, very expensive cables have "white papers" that are full of so much gobbledegook, nonsense, and bullpuckey science that it would have to make even Enid Lumley skeptical! Are there any formal DBT studies that show that these things actually make any noticeable difference? Shunyata says that you need to think of power cables as the "...first six feet of power that your system sees..." Isn't it the last six feet - I.E. the final length of a (perhaps) many hundred mile journey that your mains supply has taken just to get from the generator to your house? What can a power cord possibly do in six feet to counter what the environment has already done to your mains supply waveform in all the previous miles? And finally, what does the $3000 Shunyata 'Zitron' Anaconda do that their own 'Venom-3' (at $75) won't. Are they saying that in order to get the most from your stereo system, you NEED a $3000 mains cord? I really don't understand anything except the bling factor that a fancy thick line cord might provide. (I'm not picking on Shunyayta, here. I just picked two of their products because I was already on their web page looking for an explanation.)

 

I'm not saying that if I tried one of these things*, that I wouldn't hear any difference, we know about that route. But would I still hear a difference in a DBT or ABX test? That's the proof of the pudding. Isn't this just a matter of "look good, feel good"?

 

No, I'm not going to plunk down $3000 to try a Shunyata Anaconda. Somebody want to send me one? I'll try it. I truly will.

[gmgraves]

No, I don't think I will venture into that ground, for several reasons.

 

So why is so important to you to prove that power cords don't make a difference?

 

Well, most importantly, it means that we can't trust our knowledge of the very technology upon which our entire civilization runs. To me that's very unnerving. If we can't even trust our more than 100 years of knowledge about the AC power grid and the technology behind our consumer appliances, what does it say about our knowledge wrt the rest of our technological infrastructure? It is IMPOSSIBLE for power cords to do anything, under any circumstances based on what we know about how electricity works. If what we know were to be wrong, what does that say about the rest of our knowledge? I simply can't believe that so many scientists and engineers could be so wrong about something so obvious.

 

Tell you a story, I determined to spend up to $200 to prove the idea of power cords making a difference was silly, wrong, and just plain idiotic. Even f they did make physical differences, I expected any changes to be well below the level of audibility.

 

So I bought some Venom's from the Cable Co. Plugged them in. Damn if they did not make a difference. That was most certainly NOT expectation bias, or more accurately, the results were not at all what I expected.

 

I suggest that you can't possibly know that without having tested the "fancy" cord against the stock cord in some kind of bias-neutral test. Without that information, your results are merely anecdotal, and I'm sorry, but when the stakes are this high (see above), it's not good enough for me and it shouldn't be good enough for you (or anybody else).

 

But regardless of any of my experience or theories - you only need to prove or disprove it for yourself. And to do that, the only reasonably method, in terms of time and expense, is to just try a few and give them a listen. -Paul

 

It would have to be in some kind of formal bias-controlled study, because I'm human just like you, and just as susceptible to expectational bias. To get to the truth, the possibility of bias HAS to be removed from the equation.

 

Frankly, if the whole world worked like many of the audio "subjectivists" who post here, as a civilization we'd still be saying that the earth is flat, practicing alchemy instead of chemistry, and witchcraft instead of physics.

 

And Paul, I understand why you don't want to venture onto that ground, because you can't. There is no rational explanation why the six feet between your wall receptacle and your component's IEC connector could possibly make any difference whatsoever. The makers of these cords know that, that's why their explanations ring so hollow and sound so incredibly silly.

[Allan F]

Well, most importantly, it means that we can't trust our knowledge of the very technology upon which our entire civilization runs. To me that's very unnerving. If we can't even trust our more than 100 years of knowledge about the AC power grid and the technology behind our consumer appliances, what does it say about our knowledge wrt the rest of our technological infrastructure? It is IMPOSSIBLE for power cords to do anything, under any circumstances based on what we know about how electricity works...

 

Frankly, if the whole world worked like many of the audio "subjectivists" who post here, as a civilization we'd still be saying that the earth is flat, practicing alchemy instead of chemistry, and witchcraft instead of physics.

 

Really, George, do you really believe this hyperbole?

 

And, with respect, I would suggest that it would be more correct to say that it may be impossible according to what you know about how electricity works. Perhaps, you provide part of the answer by lumping stereo gear, which reproduces sound, with "electrical appliances". When was the last time you heard people talking about hi-fi refrigerators or coffeemakers? I'm no expert and have no intention of getting into a debate with you, but I don't understand why are you so quick to dismiss, among other things, the possible effects of RFI/EMI?

 

Look up! The sky is not falling because people hear differences because of power cords. Relax, take a pill.

[mayhem13]

Really, George, do you really believe this hyperbole?

 

And, with respect, I would suggest that it would be more correct to say that it may be impossible according to what you know about how electricity works. Perhaps, you provide part of the answer by lumping stereo gear, which reproduces sound, with "electrical appliances". When was the last time you heard people talking about hi-fi refrigerators or coffeemakers? I'm no expert and have no intention of getting into a debate with you, but I don't understand why are you so quick to dismiss, among other things, the possible effects of RFI/EMI?

 

Look up! The sky is not falling because people hear differences because of power cords. Relax, take a pill.

 

Allen.....it's not just George that believes this. Statistically on this site, I'd bet the ratio is 50/50 on the topic. Neither you or I or George are in the minority in our beliefs.

[Paul R]

MMm- your whole reasoning here is specious and designed to elicit emotional responses, not reason.

 

First, a power cable making a difference is quite obviously not impossible. It happens, and anything that happens must be following the reasonable and rational laws of the universe. Meaning of course, the universe is hardly going to fall apart because your assumptions, or anybody's assumptions, about how it should operate are challenged. It most likely means the person making the incorrect assumptions has incomplete knowledge and understanding of the situation, and has simply drawn incorrect conclusions based upon that incomplete understanding.

 

I believe this is the case here regarding your conclusions of course.

 

As for me being unwilling to join the debate with you on the subject - I suggest it has more to do with your large store of conclusions, and a lack of desire to argue the matter with someone who has already made up their mind, rather than any lack of ability. Again, go and listen. If you hear no difference, that is a valuable data point. If you do, then obviously, you have drawn an incorrect conclusion and that is also a valuable data point.

 

-Paul

 

 

Well, most importantly, it means that we can't trust our knowledge of the very technology upon which our entire civilization runs. To me that's very unnerving. If we can't even trust our more than 100 years of knowledge about the AC power grid and the technology behind our consumer appliances, what does it say about our knowledge wrt the rest of our technological infrastructure? It is IMPOSSIBLE for power cords to do anything, under any circumstances based on what we know about how electricity works. If what we know were to be wrong, what does that say about the rest of our knowledge? I simply can't believe that so many scientists and engineers could be so wrong about something so obvious.

 

 

 

I suggest that you can't possibly know that without having tested the "fancy" cord against the stock cord in some kind of bias-neutral test. Without that information, your results are merely anecdotal, and I'm sorry, but when the stakes are this high (see above), it's not good enough for me and it shouldn't be good enough for you (or anybody else).

 

 

It would have to be in some kind of formal bias-controlled study, because I'm human just like you, and just as susceptible to expectational bias. To get to the truth, the possibility of bias HAS to be removed from the equation.

 

Frankly, if the whole world worked like many of the audio "subjectivists" who post here, as a civilization we'd still be saying that the earth is flat, practicing alchemy instead of chemistry, and witchcraft instead of physics.

 

And Paul, I understand why you don't want to venture onto that ground, because you can't. There is no rational explanation why the six feet between your wall receptacle and your component's IEC connector could possibly make any difference whatsoever. The makers of these cords know that, that's why their explanations ring so hollow and sound so incredibly silly.

[gmgraves]

Really, George, do you really believe this hyperbole?

 

Yes, it is hyperbole. Hyperbole used to illustrate a point. The scientific establishment didn't just fall off the milk-train this morning. Don't you think that if six feet of fancy mains cable could do what it's proponents say that it can do, that somebody would know about it? Don't you think that the phenomenon would have been well studied by now? And if the sum total of mankind's knowledge about electrical power and the filtering of same were actually that shallow, wouldn't that actually mean that we don't understand all we know about the subject, and is that likely? Here's a thought: there are no materials scientisists, and/or electrical engineers burning the midnight oil in some lab somewhere trying to fathom why the last six feel of cable would affect the performance of an amplifier or other hi-fi component.

 

And, with respect, I would suggest that it would be more correct to say that it may be impossible according to what you know about how electricity works.

 

For your statement to be true, it infers that SOMEBODY knows how and why these fancy mains cables work. If that's true, then it must be a state secret because none of the people who make theses things seem to know or if they do, they certainly aren't telling anybody else. You are right when you say that this is impossible according to what I know about electricity, but it looks as if nobody knows. If you can find a rational explanation, how about sharing it with the rest of us? This only the third or fourth time that I've asked here. No? I thought not.

 

 

Perhaps, you provide part of the answer by lumping stereo gear, which reproduces sound, with "electrical appliances". When was the last time you heard people talking about hi-fi refrigerators or coffeemakers? I'm no expert and have no intention of getting into a debate with you, but I don't understand why are you so quick to dismiss, among other things, the possible effects of RFI/EMI?

 

You're joking here, right? You do realize that when I say "electrical appliances" I'm referring to the sum total of our knowledge about the interaction of the devices humans make to plug into the mains receptacles in the wall and the power coming out of those receptacles? That knowledge is either complete or it isn't.

 

Look up! The sky is not falling because people hear differences because of power cords. Relax, take a pill.

 

Believe me Allan, It really doesn't make any real difference to me, personally, because I'm not buying this nonsense, but it does bother me a bit, that my fellow audiophiles here require so little scientific rigor about this stuff. It's like a religion to many of them, taken on faith and not requiring any proof to get many here to buy-in to almost anything. I must admit that I do not understand this mindset.

 

OK. I know when I'm licked. There'll be no more from me on this subject. Enjoy your $3000 line cords in good health.

[sandyk]

pill.

Believe me Allan, It really doesn't make any real difference to me, personally, because I'm not buying this nonsense, but it does bother me a bit, that my fellow audiophiles here require so little scientific rigor about this stuff

 

What part don't you understand way back in post 42 from John Swenson ? John is a highly respected E.E. with wide industry experience.

[esldude]

What part don't you understand way back in post 42 from John Swenson ? John is a highly respected E.E. with wide industry experience.

 

All John Swenson basically said, was in regards to high frequency noise getting through due to transformer resonances different power cords (and he wasn't using esoteric high end cords by his description) altered that resonance. Also he said if the transformers were properly damped the cords didn't matter. So at best, you don't need a $3000 cord. You need either a properly damped transformer, or to add a little C or R as in LCR to control the electrical resonance. That is possible way less than $3k.

[Paul R]

I do not see anyone here arguing about $3000 power cords, with the exception of you and George. Most people have mentioned experiences with much lower cost power cables.

 

Paul

 

All John Swenson basically said, was in regards to high frequency noise getting through due to transformer resonances different power cords (and he wasn't using esoteric high end cords by his description) altered that resonance. Also he said if the transformers were properly damped the cords didn't matter. So at best, you don't need a $3000 cord. You need either a properly damped transformer, or to add a little C or R as in LCR to control the electrical resonance. That is possible way less than $3k.

[sandyk]

You need either a properly damped transformer, or to add a little C or R as in LCR to control the electrical resonance. That is possible way less than $3k.

 

Agreed . However, how many members are game enough, and knowledgeable enough to open up their gear, use a soldering iron and make appropriate modifications ? Even fitting a cheap IEC mains filter in line can have surprising results, and not always for the better as I found a couple of days ago with a low noise +5V Linear USB PSU .

Why do you guys insist on using way out examples like $3K power leads to try and make a point ?

[Allan F]

I do not see anyone here arguing about $3000 power cords, with the exception of you and George. Most people have mentioned experiences with much lower cost power cables.

 

Paul

 

+1

 

I guess when your argument is based totally on closed-minded belief and you won't try something for fear that the results may contradict that belief, you have to exaggerate or resort to hyperbole. Personally, I've never spent more than a few hundred dollars on a power cord. In fact, I have always bought them used from from either American or Canadian sites known for used gear at reasonable prices.

 

Believe me Allan, It really doesn't make any real difference to me, personally, because I'm not buying this nonsense, but it does bother me a bit, that my fellow audiophiles here require so little scientific rigor about this stuff.

 

Personally, George, I don't see the need for 'scientific rigor' when the results are plain to anyone who cares to actually listen. Whether you 'buy it' or not is of no consequence to me.

[esldude]

+1

 

I've never spent more than a few hundred dollars on a power cord. In fact, I have always bought them used from from either American or Canadian sites known for used gear at reasonable prices.

 

Few hundred, few thousand, not in principle different if the fix is $10-20.

[Allan F]

However, how many members are game enough, and knowledgeable enough to open up their gear, use a soldering iron and make appropriate modifications?

 

Not to mention the likelihood of voiding manufacturers' warranties by making those modifications.

[mayhem13]

What part don't you understand way back in post 42 from John Swenson ? John is a highly respected E.E. with wide industry experience.

 

No need to quote anyone....particularly out of context. Until he posts his measurements, his statement is quite useless in furthering his and your point.

[gmgraves]

+1

 

I guess when your argument is based totally on closed-minded belief and you won't try something for fear that the results may contradict that belief, you have to exaggerate or resort to hyperbole. Personally, I've never spent more than a few hundred dollars on a power cord. In fact, I have always bought them used from from either American or Canadian sites known for used gear at reasonable prices.

 

Personally, George, I don't see the need for 'scientific rigor' when the results are plain to anyone who cares to actually listen. Whether you 'buy it' or not is of no consequence to me.

 

 

Didn't I say that I was throwing-in the towel on this one? Why continue to flog a deceased equine?

[sandyk]

No need to quote anyone....particularly out of context. Until he posts his measurements, his statement is quite useless in furthering his and your point.

 

John Swenson's post which is a part of this thread, was linked to only. It was not taken out of context.

You "experts" hate it when another E.E. who is far more knowledgeable in these areas than yourselves, offers an explanation as to why people may hear things that don't agree with your tidy black and white view of electronics.

Again, why should anybody, even another E.E. , go out of their way to provide measurements to satisfy the demands of a few closed minded and vocal sceptics ?