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Expensive vs. Moderately Priced.


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I don't deny that power cables can make a difference, but generally I would never pay crazy money for them because that money could certainly be used to buy a better amp or something else.Rationally, they make the idea of spending big money on power cords absurd. As I said, I don't deny a power cords can sound different, but I would rather spend my money elsewhere.

 

"Crazy money" and "big money" are obviously relative terms. I don't consider paying a few hundred dollars for a cord to power a unit that costs over $5000 to fit either of your descriptions. Rather, I consider that additional expense to be a good investment when the result serves to extract the maximum sonic from that piece of equipment OTOH, I completely agree that unless you are independently wealthy or have money to burn, paying thousands of dollars for a power cord makes no sense.

"Relax, it's only hi-fi. There's never been a hi-fi emergency." - Roy Hall

"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." - William Bruce Cameron

 

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George, again your are miscontruing my words. I never said that an aftermarket cord doesn't sound better than a stock cord. I said the opposite.

 

Now it's you who is misconstruing MY words. I know that you believe that after market power cables sound better than stock ones. That was my point. I've had my say....

George

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Pull the main fuse out of your power amp just for fun (usually located just where the power cord plugs in.) Look at it and realize how tiny it is and think that all the current has to squeeze through that tiny filament.

 

Why don't you think about your "bottleneck" theory a bit, and when you realize that if the tiny fuse wire couldn't couldn't carry the current needed for the amplifier - and a bit more, that it would burn out the moment you turned the amp on, get back to me. :)

George

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These gross over generalizations really do no one any service. Really, as if no one thought about the fuses or that this is part of a larger power network? I do mean network in the electrical sense too btw. To attempt to separate how a device interacts with the other elements is one of the first failings in some of this sort of thing.

Why don't you think about your "bottleneck" theory a bit, and when you realize that if the tiny fuse wire couldn't couldn't carry the current needed for the amplifier - and a bit more, that it would burn out the moment you turned the amp on, get back to me. :)

Forrest:

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Is that so? You are sure?

 

Dang, I must be imagining the difference these little Venom power cords make here. Sure is a sweet dream though. Probably imagining the difference an isolating power filter makes too- but I sure enjoy listening more with them in place. :)

 

I do not have an explanation for why they make any difference at all- at least not one that makes any sense or that I am willing to present and defend with any enthusiasm. But everyone who has listened here can clearly detect an improvement using those relatively inexpensive power cables.

 

Paul

 

 

[ But, there is no need to disparage the very large number of people who have improved the sound quality of their systems by replacing those generic cords. /QUOTE]

 

Hi Allan

Nevertheless, an aftermarket power cord can only be as good as the quality of the sockets that it plugs into at both ends, especially after repeated insertions and removals. Some IEC sockets for example are utter rubbish, with some even having a thin outer shell over the top of the thick metal underneath. As another example I have a 6 outlet power board where the majority of the mains sockets have lost their tension, and plugs are quite a loose fit. I keep forgetting to replace it though.

 

Regards

Alex

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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These gross over generalizations really do no one any service. Really, as if no one thought about the fuses or that this is part of a larger power network? I do mean network in the electrical sense too btw. To attempt to separate how a device interacts with the other elements is one of the first failings in some of this sort of thing.

 

Precisely! I just love how people just assume that because something looks a certain way ("...how can all those Watts get through that tiny fuse? Answer: they obviously can't. That's got to be a bottleneck."), that it just has to make a difference (positive or negative).

George

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Is that so? You are sure?

 

Dang, I must be imagining the difference these little Venom power cords make here.

 

I do not have an explanation for why they make any difference at all- at least not one that makes any sense or that I am willing to present

 

Paul

 

 

 

I do. When you spend money to improve something, it must be improved. There's an equation for this in the audiophile textbook of quantum physics and mathematical probobility edition 1. X+ (X+Y) *$= improvement.

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Tsk tsk -- can you name 3 improvements one can make to one's system without spending money? :)

 

-Paul

 

Is that so? You are sure?

 

Dang, I must be imagining the difference these little Venom power cords make here.

 

I do not have an explanation for why they make any difference at all- at least not one that makes any sense or that I am willing to present

 

Paul

 

 

 

 

I do. When you spend money to improve something, it must be improved. There's an equation for this in the audiophile textbook of quantum physics and mathematical probobility edition 1. X+ (X+Y) *$= improvement.

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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Why don't you think about your "bottleneck" theory a bit, and when you realize that if the tiny fuse wire couldn't couldn't carry the current needed for the amplifier - and a bit more, that it would burn out the moment you turned the amp on, get back to me. :)

 

Of course the tiny filament can carry all the current needed. So can a lamp a cord. So why does an aftermarket power cable make sense as long as it is a reasonable length, and carrying consumer levels of current? A lamp cord could carry all that is needed and then some. As I said, I don't deny power cables can and do make a difference (and with some amps more than others.) I have wondered if some of the ultra thick cables I have seen with multiple strands end up with so much reactance in them they act like filters. They certainly would at higher frequencies but at power frequencies I don't see that much function in them.

 

One thing that would be curious to me is to test if increasing the power supply capacitance in an amp would make change in power cords more or less apparent, or if variables of the power cable could be tuned to the power supply in a systematic way. My dad's old Audio Research amp from the 90s has a non-removable cable, it made me wonder if they already had optimized it and didn't want people messing with it.

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Even wiring a suitably rated protective Metal Oxide Varistor across the primary windings of the transformer is likely to make a difference, even when not conducting, as they have several hundred Picofarads capacitance.

 

Alex

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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Tsk tsk -- can you name 3 improvements one can make to one's system without spending money? :)

 

-Paul

 

 

Sure, superior speaker placement. With stereo that is two speakers, two improvements.

 

Superior listener placement. That makes three.

 

;)

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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Of course the tiny filament can carry all the current needed. So can a lamp a cord. So why does an aftermarket power cable make sense as long as it is a reasonable length, and carrying consumer levels of current? A lamp cord could carry all that is needed and then some. As I said, I don't deny power cables can and do make a difference (and with some amps more than others.) I have wondered if some of the ultra thick cables I have seen with multiple strands end up with so much reactance in them they act like filters. They certainly would at higher frequencies but at power frequencies I don't see that much function in them.

 

I think that you "get it".

George

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have wondered if some of the ultra thick cables I have seen with multiple strands end up with so much reactance in them they act like filters.

 

I think that you "get it".

 

I wonder if either of you get it ?

Even if the individual wires were insulated from each other, which they aren't, the inductive reactance would be reduced as they would be in parallel. If you are talking about capacitive reactance due to 2 thick multi strand cables that are insulated from each other, being in close proximity that may be a slightly different story, but it will still depend on the dielectric used and the spacing between them.

 

P.S.

George

I don't doubt for a moment that you know far more about this area than most, but perhaps you shouldn't jump in so quickly just to score points ? (wink)

Regards

Alex

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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Sure, superior speaker placement. With stereo that is two speakers, two improvements.

 

Superior listener placement. That makes three.

 

;)

 

I agree completely! Experimentation and patience brings many sonic rewards.

I have dementia. I save all my posts in a text file I call Forums.  I do a search in that file to find out what I said or did in the past.

 

I still love music.

 

Teresa

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Totally depends- might have to hire movers to shift the position of some speakers, and pay for expertise to help you place them in the first place- like Jim Smith's book.

 

But more seriously, shifting the listener position usually invloves the purchase of some new furniture, at least it does to anyone who has any sense of esthetics. Or whose better half does!

 

 

(Grin)

 

Tsk tsk -- can you name 3 improvements one can make to one's system without spending money? :)

 

-Paul

 

 

 

Sure, superior speaker placement. With stereo that is two speakers, two improvements.

 

Superior listener placement. That makes three.

 

;)

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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I HAVE measured differences a power cord makes in the electrical properties of a piece of equipment.

 

In those threads on power supply design we talked a lot about transformer resonances and how they can affect ultrasonic noise getting into the electronics and out into the mains.

 

Power cords are one of the parts to that transformer resonance. On equipment that had not been damped (transformer resonances, not mechanical) different power cords made significant differences in those transformer resonances. This effect varied from device to device, but every one I tried had some degree of resonance change with power cords.

 

The power cords that had the lowest resonance on one device did not necessarily have the lowest on another.

 

I did not try a bunch of expensive cords since I don't have any. So I can't answer the "do expensive cords measure better" question. BUT I can say that I have measured differences with different cords and have a possible explanation for how that can affect sound.

 

BTW once you properly damp the transformer this cord interaction seems to go away.

 

It would be interesting for some people to try the transformer damping process and then see if the expensive cords make a difference any more.

 

John S.

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I tried smoothing out that bounce with a high capacity regenerative power supply, and that more or less worked pretty well. I am less inclined to go wiring up damping circuits across transformers these days than I might have been in my youth... :)

 

 

 

I HAVE measured differences a power cord makes in the electrical properties of a piece of equipment.

 

In those threads on power supply design we talked a lot about transformer resonances and how they can affect ultrasonic noise getting into the electronics and out into the mains.

 

Power cords are one of the parts to that transformer resonance. On equipment that had not been damped (transformer resonances, not mechanical) different power cords made significant differences in those transformer resonances. This effect varied from device to device, but every one I tried had some degree of resonance change with power cords.

 

The power cords that had the lowest resonance on one device did not necessarily have the lowest on another.

 

I did not try a bunch of expensive cords since I don't have any. So I can't answer the "do expensive cords measure better" question. BUT I can say that I have measured differences with different cords and have a possible explanation for how that can affect sound.

 

BTW once you properly damp the transformer this cord interaction seems to go away.

 

It would be interesting for some people to try the transformer damping process and then see if the expensive cords make a difference any more.

 

John S.

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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I HAVE measured differences a power cord makes in the electrical properties of a piece of equipment.

 

In those threads on power supply design we talked a lot about transformer resonances and how they can affect ultrasonic noise getting into the electronics and out into the mains.

 

Power cords are one of the parts to that transformer resonance. On equipment that had not been damped (transformer resonances, not mechanical) different power cords made significant differences in those transformer resonances. This effect varied from device to device, but every one I tried had some degree of resonance change with power cords.

 

The power cords that had the lowest resonance on one device did not necessarily have the lowest on another.

 

I did not try a bunch of expensive cords since I don't have any. So I can't answer the "do expensive cords measure better" question. BUT I can say that I have measured differences with different cords and have a possible explanation for how that can affect sound.

 

BTW once you properly damp the transformer this cord interaction seems to go away.

 

It would be interesting for some people to try the transformer damping process and then see if the expensive cords make a difference any more.

 

John S.

 

 

John, thanks for the post. To me, this is a very significant finding and merits a dedicated thread. People have been asking for measurements as evidence of the potential impact of power cords for a long time.

 

Would you mind starting a separate post with perhaps some additional detail about your measurements, methods and findings?

 

Cheers, Blake

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As to an aftermarket cord not sounding better than a stock cord (or vise versa, even) you're correct. They won't. They will make no difference whatsoever. They simply can't.

 

George:

 

Nothing personal but, notwithstanding your certainty to the contrary, John Swenson seems to think that they can. You will excuse me if I put more stock in what he has to say:

 

I HAVE measured differences a power cord makes in the electrical properties of a piece of equipment.

 

In those threads on power supply design we talked a lot about transformer resonances and how they can affect ultrasonic noise getting into the electronics and out into the mains.

 

Power cords are one of the parts to that transformer resonance. On equipment that had not been damped (transformer resonances, not mechanical) different power cords made significant differences in those transformer resonances. This effect varied from device to device, but every one I tried had some degree of resonance change with power cords.

 

The power cords that had the lowest resonance on one device did not necessarily have the lowest on another.

 

I did not try a bunch of expensive cords since I don't have any. So I can't answer the "do expensive cords measure better" question. BUT I can say that I have measured differences with different cords and have a possible explanation for how that can affect sound.

 

BTW once you properly damp the transformer this cord interaction seems to go away.

 

It would be interesting for some people to try the transformer damping process and then see if the expensive cords make a difference any more.

 

John S.

"Relax, it's only hi-fi. There's never been a hi-fi emergency." - Roy Hall

"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." - William Bruce Cameron

 

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Precisely! I just love how people just assume that because something looks a certain way ("...how can all those Watts get through that tiny fuse? Answer: they obviously can't. That's got to be a bottleneck."), that it just has to make a difference (positive or negative).

 

It's current George. Fuses go open on an overcurrent versus a time period.

AS Profile Equipment List        Say NO to MQA

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If you look at the cable as a multiple smaller inductances with capacitors in parallel, your classic T network filters, then at certain frequencies, attenuation can start.

The origin of the noise (whether it be resonances or harmonics or both!) is close to the transformer as John Swenson discovered, the level of attenuation by the cable is significant in the first "turns" of the inductances.

 

This is even before we start discussing shields. Certain dielectrics can be deliberately chosen to increase/decrease capacitance, therefore the filtering action depends on your install and the transformer in the audio component.

 

Anyway, I think we have been down this road before, some bozo usually wants proof, but the physics are all there.

AS Profile Equipment List        Say NO to MQA

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John, thanks for the post. To me, this is a very significant finding and merits a dedicated thread. People have been asking for measurements as evidence of the potential impact of power cords for a long time.

 

Would you mind starting a separate post with perhaps some additional detail about your measurements, methods and findings?

 

Cheers, Blake

 

Good luck with that!

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If you look at the cable as a multiple smaller inductances with capacitors in parallel, your classic T network filters, then at certain frequencies, attenuation can start.

The origin of the noise (whether it be resonances or harmonics or both!) is close to the transformer as John Swenson discovered, the level of attenuation by the cable is significant in the first "turns" of the inductances.

 

This is even before we start discussing shields. Certain dielectrics can be deliberately chosen to increase/decrease capacitance, therefore the filtering action depends on your install and the transformer in the audio component.

 

Anyway, I think we have been down this road before, some bozo usually wants proof, but the physics are all there.

 

You can make a physical case for anything really.......proof is another matter entirely. Yes, the composition, gauge, shielding of a cable produce a measurable difference with the content of electrical current. How those changes propagate through a piece of gear and ultimately become audible has yet to be explained....no less proven. IMO and IME, the values of changes quoted (capacitance, inductance, resistance) are simply far to small to have any real influence on the operation of the circuit. If we simply examine a passive speaker's crossover network, you'll find real world examples of how much variance is needed to effect a measurable change, not to mention audibility.

 

Clean, stable current and sound connections with enough wire to support the load is all that is needed. Sorry.

 

Just wondering of there were any audiophile grade circuit breakers or panels out there for purchase?

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Just wondering of there were any audiophile grade circuit breakers or panels out there for purchase?

 

Well of course there is:

 

Power

 

ISOCLEAN POWER

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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