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The dreaded iTunes exclamation point of death


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He's saying JRiver works with the folders as he makes them with XLD, rather than mucking with them further as iTunes does.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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I was waiting for someone to bring that up. :)

 

What I'm looking for is two things: customizability and flexibility. I want to be able to tweak the metadata the software bases its decision on per recording in advance, so with a change of one setting the recording imports the way I want it. It would also be nice to be able to access metadata from multiple databases, as XLD does with cover art.

 

Jud, I'm really trying to picture what you're imagining.

 

Say if "the metadata the software bases its decision on per recording" comes from the Gracenote database, as used by iTunes.

Do you imagine that you could change the Gracenote settings in advance so that it won't get a track name wrong?

Or change the Gracenote settings so that it will always have the composer name(s), even if that data isn't already there in the Gracenote database?

 

What is that one setting you're wanting?

 

I mean, databases of all kinds have incorrect data. To pre-populate the fields in music files -- if sometimes imperfectly, sometimes incompletely -- is the reason for Gracenote or any other database, and that makes it a time-saver.

 

But any database -- and now I'm thinking of the music library on each of our computers -- needs tweaking to become more accurate.

 

You do realize that individual humans have input the metadata into Gracenote or those other music databases, and that's not created automagically either. So its results, as transmitted to your or my computer, are imperfect.

 

You're right about accessing metadata from multiple sources, and that would be a nice choice for iTunes too -- but multiple sources do not necessarily mean greater initial accuracy. And how would you know ahead of time which of those multiple sources has the most accurate and complete metadata for, say, the new Rosann Cash album (see, the name was input wrong) or that the genre is "country" when the database considers it "rock"…and you, over there, consider her music "pop."

 

Sorry, to have the least imperfect database, individual tweaking will always be needed.

 

Dave, who understands there are errors in the NSA database too

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Music is love, made audible.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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He's saying JRiver works with the folders as he makes them with XLD, rather than mucking with them further as iTunes does.

 

And still I ask, what's the benefit of that folder control?

Truly, it's not clear.

 

And is it mucking, as you call it, when for many people -- especially those people who aren't mainly ripping classical music -- that iTunes folder structure works very well.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Music is love, made audible.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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And still I ask, what's the benefit of that folder control?

Truly, it's not clear.

The point being that other music servers don't physically move the music files about on the storage device when organising the music library, the files are left where they were originally placed. Given that the user put them there in the first place, I would have thought it quite beneficial to find them all still there, untouched.

We are far more united and have far more in common with each other than things that divide us.

-- Jo Cox

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The point being that other music servers don't physically move the music files about on the storage device when organising the music library, the files are left where they were originally placed. Given that the user put them there in the first place, I would have thought it quite beneficial to find them all still there, untouched.

 

People put files in all kinds of places on their computers, and then they get lost sometimes. Really. With iTunes, you can still find the original file where you put it -- if you need it for some reason -- and the file iTunes uses is just a copy, and it's easy to find that too.

 

And often that original file is a CD, and so when iTunes rips the CD, I have the benefit of knowing easily where to find the file (if for some reason I need to deal with the file directly, which is extremely rare).

 

What's the problem with putting all the music files in one place, other than the lack of some abstract control?

 

For me, and for people who like to backup their music libraries, having all the music files in one place -- rather than scattered in different places in a computer system -- the big benefit is easier backup.

 

I mean, how is having music files in various locations conducive to making backups?

 

Dave, who cannot seem to let go of this thread today but also after many years and deep experience using personal computers is trying to understand this need to manipulate files directly which is what operating systems back in the 1980s and 1990s forced people to do but has no pleasure in itself

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Music is love, made audible.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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He's saying JRiver works with the folders as he makes them with XLD, rather than mucking with them further as iTunes does.

 

Actually, they work perfectly well with iTunes too, which is one of the better points. The same media files I use for iTunes, I use for JRMC on both Windows and MacOS, and with LMS under Linux, and they work perfectly well with other systems, like Sonos, too.

 

That works because I *uncheck* the following two options in iTunes - "Keep iTunes Media Folder Organized" and "Copy files to iTunes Medial folder when adding to library". I don't let JRMC muck about with those files either- no updating the album art or whatever it decides it wants to do. It's really the only way I know of to ensure that the files do not get trashed. I have had to restore the library more than once... hard lessons to learn.

 

-Paul

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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individual CD's.

 

CDs.

Again, touché.

 

 

Why does the library manager need to get involved with the physical folder structure in the first place?CDs.
To keep track of where the music files are, to call them up as needed???

 

The library software doesn't need a folder structure to keep track of files - that's for humans. As long as it knows the root folder(s) to monitor, the software can just dig through the folder tree and get the necessary data from the metadata of the files it encounters. Lots of media libraries do that - JRiver, Picasa, maybe even iPhoto if I'm not mistaken.

 

 

XLD enables me to specify which folder each rip goes into and there they stay.
And the benefit of that is…?

 

Really, I'd like to understand how that helps you.

 

Well I don't have all that tom-foolery with individual performers on albums getting split into separate folders.

 

iTunes has some aggravating habits, like calling albums where artists do a couple of covers (e.g., Beatles for Sale) or have guest harmony vocalists on a couple of songs (Roseanne Cash's "the List") "Compilations," and putting them off in a folder separate from the artist's other albums. Or sometimes it will do kind of the opposite, as when it insists on moving the first track of the compilation "The Gathering" into a separate folder under the name of the individual artist on that track. And if you want to move your library to a new location....
Yes, I do the same thing with moving a guest artist's name to prevent a single artist's album from winding up in the Compilations folder, or worse, if the Compilations box isn't checked, as more than one album.

 

I've found the best place for those "pesky" guest artist names are with the track name itself.

 

So, on the excellent Bert Jansch album, The Black Swan, here's how one track is named: "Katie Cruel [with Beth Orton]"

I rest my case.

 

 

And is it mucking, as you call it, when for many people -- especially those people who aren't mainly ripping classical music -- that iTunes folder structure works very well.

Well for those who have no interest at all in classical music, that's fine. I would rather have an arrangement that could handle all music genres.

 

People put files in all kinds of places on their computers, and then they get lost sometimes. Really. With iTunes, you can still find the original file where you put it -- if you need it for some reason -- and the file iTunes uses is just a copy, and it's easy to find that too.

 

And often that original file is a CD, and so when iTunes rips the CD, I have the benefit of knowing easily where to find the file (if for some reason I need to deal with the file directly, which is extremely rare).

 

What's the problem with putting all the music files in one place, other than the lack of some abstract control?

 

For me, and for people who like to backup their music libraries, having all the music files in one place -- rather than scattered in different places in a computer system -- the big benefit is easier backup.

 

I mean, how is having music files in various locations conducive to making backups?

 

Geez, it's not that complex. Just put all your music folders under one root folder called ummmm Music! That's it, all you have to do. You can move the whole thing as one, back it up, whatever.

 

Dave, who cannot seem to let go of this thread today but also after many years and deep experience using personal computers is trying to understand this need to manipulate files directly which is what operating systems back in the 1980s and 1990s forced people to do but has no pleasure in itself

It's fine to let the software do the job, as long as you can configure it to do what you want. I recall long ago using Musicmatch Jukebox for my music library. It gave you the option of organising folders as Album->Artist or as Artist->Album. I gather that's not an option with iTunes.

Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted.

- Einstein

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I don't let JRMC muck about with those files either- no updating the album art or whatever it decides it wants to do. It's really the only way I know of to ensure that the files do not get trashed. I have had to restore the library more than once... hard lessons to learn.

 

-Paul

+1 It was driving me crazy losing info in some tags I had customized, till I realised JRiver kept updating them by default.

Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted.

- Einstein

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+1 It was driving me crazy losing info in some tags I had customized, till I realised JRiver kept updating them by default.

 

Yes, and neither the berated iTunes, nor Audirvana Plus nor Amarra does that.

(Beware Windows-born applications on Macintosh computers.)

 

Do not search for the truth - just let go of your opinions.

Seng-Ts'an

 

And therefore, thank you Mr. Snowmonkey...I rest my case.

 

And further realize that if anyone's method helps them play music without interruption, no opinions matter.

 

Thank you.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Music is love, made audible.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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The point being that other music servers don't physically move the music files about on the storage device when organising the music library, the files are left where they were originally placed. Given that the user put them there in the first place, I would have thought it quite beneficial to find them all still there, untouched.

 

Are you saying iTunes does this, puts folders in various locations? Maybe I don't have the most experience with iTunes having used it for maybe ten years and only five years in the context as the data manager for my computer audio library I have only experienced a couple of occasions where folders were not with the rest of my library as organized by iTunes and in each case it was my error in not having my external drive which houses my library available when I initially ripped the tracks. I have never experienced a single time where a folder was within my music library at one point and suddenly disappeared into the cosmos or magically appeared elsewhere.

"A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it is not open."
Frank Zappa
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Yes, and neither the berated iTunes, nor Audirvana Plus nor Amarra does that.

(Beware Windows-born applications on Macintosh computers.)

 

 

 

And therefore, thank you Mr. Snowmonkey...I rest my case.

 

And further realize that if anyone's method helps them play music without interruption, no opinions matter.

 

Thank you.

Actually, I don't recall berating iTunes at all, nor expressing any opinion. I simply asked why the library manager needs to get involved with the folder structure, then answered your questions factually.

Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted.

- Einstein

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Yes, and neither the berated iTunes, nor Audirvana Plus nor Amarra does that.

(Beware Windows-born applications on Macintosh computers.)

 

 

Ummm- iTunes certainly does exactly that kind of mucking around with your physical files, as well as with the library database. Else why would you think iTunes is so very well known for losing files?

 

And therefore, thank you Mr. Snowmonkey...I rest my case.

 

And further realize that if anyone's method helps them play music without interruption, no opinions matter.

 

Thank you.

 

Well, of course most reasonable people agree with that. Also, people who can reason well keep lots of backups when dealing with audio software and database managers... :)

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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Ummm- iTunes certainly does exactly that kind of mucking around with your physical files, as well as with the library database. Else why would you think iTunes is so very well known for losing files?

 

Well, there may be other factors involved, since I have never lost files using iTunes -- except for user error -- which is also what mwheelerk said above.

 

So are you absolutely sure it's iTunes losing files?

Are you convinced there's been no user error?

 

If you are convinced about that, well then, what can I say…?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Music is love, made audible.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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Perhaps a warning if you are attempting to write to a drive that isn't plugged in would help. The vast bulk of problems that occur on a computer are caused by user error. It's the job of software to help users reduce their errors. Otherwise, we could all just use software assemblers and get our computers to do anything we wanted (if we could avoid errors).

Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted.

- Einstein

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I see that attitude a lot on the audio world - it hasn't happened to me, or at least, I don't think it has, so it can not be true.

 

Indeed, it may not be true with the latest versions of iTunes. I do not know, because it did bite me so I took steps to avoid being bitten again. (Grin)

 

Do you ever audit your library? Are you sure all your albums and fracks are there and available to you? Most importantly of all- do you have good backups?

 

 

 

Well, there may be other factors involved, since I have never lost files using iTunes -- except for user error -- which is also what mwheelerk said above.

 

So are you absolutely sure it's iTunes losing files?

Are you convinced there's been no user error?

 

If you are convinced about that, well then, what can I say…?

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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I see that attitude a lot on the audio world - it hasn't happened to me, or at least, I don't think it has, so it can not be true.

 

Indeed, it may not be true with the latest versions of iTunes. I do not know, because it did bite me so I took steps to avoid being bitten again. (Grin)

 

Do you ever audit your library? Are you sure all your albums and fracks are there and available to you? Most importantly of all- do you have good backups?

 

Paul, while I've had minor issues in the past, I haven't had trouble with iTunes for quite some time now. For my own peace of mind, using XLD, I rip to WAV and store all files on a FW drive. The WAV files are then transcoded to AIFF via XLD and stored on a different FW drive in one folder (labeled AIFFs). I then import these to the iTunes library, which is located on the same drive, allowing iTunes to organize the library. Occasionally I have to alter metadata, but rarely. I do this for a number of reasons, of which, I am assured the original AIFF files are not mucked with (just copied). This drive is backed up to a 3rd drive for redundancy. The original AIFF (or WAV) files are used in Amarra and Audirvana when in playlist mode and for JMRC. This may sound like too much work for others but I feel confident in this approach.

 

edit: my point is once bitten ..

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I see that attitude a lot on the audio world - it hasn't happened to me, or at least, I don't think it has, so it can not be true.

 

Indeed, it may not be true with the latest versions of iTunes. I do not know, because it did bite me so I took steps to avoid being bitten again. (Grin)

 

Do you ever audit your library? Are you sure all your albums and fracks are there and available to you? Most importantly of all- do you have good backups?

 

Good points, Paul. But first, some personal history.

 

I've been using the iTunes application for nearly 13 years. In fact, I was one of the people who received the first iPods that Apple shipped in the fall of 2001, and had been using iTunes, ripping CDs, for several months before that.

 

But despite that long-time use, I'd say it's only been in the past couple of years that I fully understand the ins-and-outs of the iTunes database and CD ripping functions. Before that, I was ignorant of certain ways iTunes operates to create, organize and store music files and accompanying metadata.

 

I'd now say that iTunes, in its disguise as a database for media, appears more simple than it actually is.

 

And I see now how in certain matters, my ignorance -- one of two paths to user error, the other being lack of attention -- lead to my losing files. Or, to put that more accurately, how my ignorance of iTunes operations and capabilities created disconnects between the iTunes database and the actual files themselves.

 

I did it, the program did not.

 

Most importantly of all- do you have good backups?

Now to describe why I'm sure all my albums -- I don't know what "fracks" means here, just makes me think of fracking -- are there, along with my backup process.

 

In my computer setup, there's my iMac work computer in one room and my Mac Mini music computer, dedicated only to music playback, in another room.

 

I do all my CD ripping and music downloading on the Work Mac. Once that's complete, with the metadata including covers as I want it, I put that album on the Music Mac by simply adding it to that computer's iTunes library, using sharing over my home network.

 

That process, in essence, creates one backup.

 

Then, I have five external drives attached to my Work Mac -- one is that machine's main music drive, where the original rips go, and others have multiple purposes, including backing up the Work Mac's music drive. For that, I have a simple, two-step process.

(1) I use Apple's supplied Disk Utility application to check if the main music drive's file structure is accurate.

(2) Using Carbon Copy Cloner, I have four presets to backup any changes from the main music drive to the four other external drives. Those presets are set up to run manually, but I'm good at remembering to initiate them after new rips or downloads. Easy enough, too, since even an addition of 10 new albums, say, takes only about a minute each to backup.

 

In addition, since hard drives nowadays are cheap, I have three other external drives that I periodically hook up to my Music Mac to backup that drive (which is already the same, and backed up, on my Work Mac).

 

Furthermore, I have one small-size drive that has nearly all my music library that I also periodically backup, and is stored in my bank safe deposit box.

 

So, in total -- and most certainly to great excess -- I have 10 external drives with my music library on them.

 

And on both of my music systems -- the main Music Mac, and the Work Mac which is setup the same, but with different speakers, amps, DAC -- all the tracks I want to play, play, and to return to this thread's initial point, I do not get the "dreaded iTunes exclamation point of death."

 

So, those are my steps to avoid being bitten -- learn the iTunes application as fully as possible and backup to great redundancy.

 

Dave, whose background includes 10 years as a computer magazine editor from the mid 1980s to the mid 1990s so he really can say he's quite experienced and to brag for a moment is quite expert at using personal computers most notably the Macintosh which he has used since 1986

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Music is love, made audible.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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Am I sure it's iTunes moving one single track of a compilation under the individual artist's name, or putting two Beatles albums (Beatles for Sale and one of the two stereo singles collections from the 2009 remastered set) in Compilations rather than the Beatles?

 

Umm, yeah.

 

How could the management software work error-free for me? By simply following my folder structure. I put all my CDs and LPs in an order by which I know where to find them (e.g., Savall's Brandenburgs under Bach, Savall's recordings of more obscure composers under Savall). When ripping or downloading I organize recordings into folders similarly. If management software would follow my organization, I would be content.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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Am I sure it's iTunes moving one single track of a compilation under the individual artist's name, or putting two Beatles albums (Beatles for Sale and one of the two stereo singles collections from the 2009 remastered set) in Compilations rather than the Beatles?

 

Umm, yeah.

 

How could the management software work error-free for me? By simply following my folder structure. I put all my CDs and LPs in an order by which I know where to find them (e.g., Savall's Brandenburgs under Bach, Savall's recordings of more obscure composers under Savall). When ripping or downloading I organize recordings into folders similarly. If management software would follow my organization, I would be content.

 

Jud, you're totally correct that the iTunes database could have several features that would make it work better.

 

But for now, if you use iTunes for its database function, you have to work within its limits.

And if you do that, correcting metadata -- such as album titles -- as needed, checking or unchecking the compilation box when ripping, as needed, then iTunes won't burst any surprises on you.

 

So, conceptually, I still see it differently -- it's not iTunes that's "moving one single track of a compilation," it's the person using iTunes who hasn't made accommodations for its limits that is the cause for that track's moving.

 

Dave, who more and more listens to various recordings from Jordi Savall and says he's transported by much of that music such as the "Istanbul" album

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Music is love, made audible.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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Thanks for sharing that. I remember being in San Fransicso at MacWorld in 2001 when iTunes was announced, and thinking that the money I had spent with Cassidy and Greene on SoundJam was now kaput. I was very glad to be proved wrong, as iTunes would actually RIP CDs on my SE30. It think version 2.0 introduced MacOS X compatibility, but it might have been V3. ;)

 

There are many documented problems with previous versions of iTunes eating up or otherwise mangling files. Anyone can check the knowledge base and see that. But that may not be an issue n iTunes 10 and above.

 

And that is not to say that I don't like iTunes, because I do. I even think iTunes sounds just fine and I could (and have) live with it, though I think players like A+ and others do sound better.

 

Al lot which is still to say, the only way I am sure of to keep iTunes tamed is to not let it move files around, instead setting those files up in a particular pattern of files and folders, an using a consistent naming standard. At least that way, I can always find my classical music when I want it.. not to mention that iTunes insists even to this day on breaking up some albums based on artist. I can control and stop that with careful use of the metadata.

 

My process is somewhat similar to yours - I RIP on my laptop, saving the files to SAN space in an area I call the "master" library. Once written, the data is immediately replicated to a second system, and then, around 2:00am the next morning, to tape. Since that space is shared over the network, most systems usually just use it in a "read only" mode to build up their physical library. Works for iTunes, JRMC, and others.

 

In some cases, I copy all or part of the library to local storage, usually to test things, and on more than one occasion, I have observed iTunes and other systems wreaking havoc with the copied library.

 

In specific, if one turns off those two options I mentioned in iTunes, one can import the entire media database seamlessly, and in only a few minutes. That includes a modest selection of video, books, and other things that get stored in iTunes. I carefully embed the album art into each track (fracks = track, typo) an I usually only have to do it once. Classical music is often a bit of a bear, and the titles can be far too long for Windows, but I do keep trying. :)

 

-Paul

 

 

Good points, Paul. But first, some personal history.

 

I've been using the iTunes application for nearly 13 years. In fact, I was one of the people who received the first iPods that Apple shipped in the fall of 2001, and had been using iTunes, ripping CDs, for several months before that.

 

But despite that long-time use, I'd say it's only been in the past couple of years that I fully understand the ins-and-outs of the iTunes database and CD ripping functions. Before that, I was ignorant of certain ways iTunes operates to create, organize and store music files and accompanying metadata.

 

I'd now say that iTunes, in its disguise as a database for media, appears more simple than it actually is.

 

And I see now how in certain matters, my ignorance -- one of two paths to user error, the other being lack of attention -- lead to my losing files. Or, to put that more accurately, how my ignorance of iTunes operations and capabilities created disconnects between the iTunes database and the actual files themselves.

 

I did it, the program did not.

 

 

Now to describe why I'm sure all my albums -- I don't know what "fracks" means here, just makes me think of fracking -- are there, along with my backup process.

 

In my computer setup, there's my iMac work computer in one room and my Mac Mini music computer, dedicated only to music playback, in another room.

 

I do all my CD ripping and music downloading on the Work Mac. Once that's complete, with the metadata including covers as I want it, I put that album on the Music Mac by simply adding it to that computer's iTunes library, using sharing over my home network.

 

That process, in essence, creates one backup.

 

Then, I have five external drives attached to my Work Mac -- one is that machine's main music drive, where the original rips go, and others have multiple purposes, including backing up the Work Mac's music drive. For that, I have a simple, two-step process.

(1) I use Apple's supplied Disk Utility application to check if the main music drive's file structure is accurate.

(2) Using Carbon Copy Cloner, I have four presets to backup any changes from the main music drive to the four other external drives. Those presets are set up to run manually, but I'm good at remembering to initiate them after new rips or downloads. Easy enough, too, since even an addition of 10 new albums, say, takes only about a minute each to backup.

 

In addition, since hard drives nowadays are cheap, I have three other external drives that I periodically hook up to my Music Mac to backup that drive (which is already the same, and backed up, on my Work Mac).

 

Furthermore, I have one small-size drive that has nearly all my music library that I also periodically backup, and is stored in my bank safe deposit box.

 

So, in total -- and most certainly to great excess -- I have 10 external drives with my music library on them.

 

And on both of my music systems -- the main Music Mac, and the Work Mac which is setup the same, but with different speakers, amps, DAC -- all the tracks I want to play, play, and to return to this thread's initial point, I do not get the "dreaded iTunes exclamation point of death."

 

So, those are my steps to avoid being bitten -- learn the iTunes application as fully as possible and backup to great redundancy.

 

Dave, whose background includes 10 years as a computer magazine editor from the mid 1980s to the mid 1990s so he really can say he's quite experienced and to brag for a moment is quite expert at using personal computers most notably the Macintosh which he has used since 1986

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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In some cases, I copy all or part of the library to local storage, usually to test things, and on more than one occasion, I have observed iTunes and other systems wreaking havoc with the copied library.

 

Paul, I'm guessing this next comment is one you might take in, but is it possible that the havoc you describe and ascribe to iTunes is simply due to your not letting it copy and organize your library (the two check boxes under preference's "Advanced" tab)?

 

Also, you mention "a consistent naming standard."

As long as one is careful with multi-artist albums -- whether to make them compilations, with that check box, or to move the extra artist's name somewhere else, like to the track name as I do -- letting the iTunes database take care of the naming -- after any necessary metadata tweaks -- also delivers a consistent naming standard.

 

Oh yes, one more thing. You write: "if one turns off those two options I mentioned in iTunes, one can import the entire media database seamlessly." Well, since I can import entire media databases seamlessly too, and yet I have those two options turned on, that indicates those options are NOT the pivot for database import.

 

Dave

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Music is love, made audible.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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Well, you hit the same point, but seem to view it differently.

 

I don't want a disk moved about and stored in one or more folders under "Compilations" - I want them stored under whatever folder name I decide I want them stored under (usually the Album name) and I want all the tracks stored under that folder. In the (perhaps) rare event when iTunes or JRMC or whatever application screws up and I need to drop and rebuild the database, I want it to find everything.

 

So yes, in a way, the troubles are caused by iTunes moving things around, and as I said, if you disable those two options, iTunes is a lot more reliable IMNSOH.

 

In part, this is because if I do load the entire library onto local disks, it takes multiple disks to do that, and I can easily separate out the music on each disk by genre or whatever I happened to need at that time. One iTunes library, multiple physical disks, all is good.

 

It's also why I do not RIP with iTunes. I just recently learned that you can stop iTunes before it imports and edit the metadata, which is a necessary thing to do in my way of thinking. However, I was already used to XLD and saw no need to change.

 

-Paul

 

 

Paul, I'm guessing this next comment is one you might take in, but is it possible that the havoc you describe and ascribe to iTunes is simply due to your not letting it copy and organize your library (the two check boxes under preference's "Advanced" tab)?

 

Also, you mention "a consistent naming standard."

As long as one is careful with multi-artist albums -- whether to make them compilations, with that check box, or to move the extra artist's name somewhere else, like to the track name as I do -- letting the iTunes database take care of the naming -- after any necessary metadata tweaks -- also delivers a consistent naming standard.

 

Oh yes, one more thing. You write: "if one turns off those two options I mentioned in iTunes, one can import the entire media database seamlessly." Well, since I can import entire media databases seamlessly too, and yet I have those two options turned on, that indicates those options are NOT the pivot for database import.

 

Dave

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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Am I sure it's iTunes moving one single track of a compilation under the individual artist's name, or putting two Beatles albums (Beatles for Sale and one of the two stereo singles collections from the 2009 remastered set) in Compilations rather than the Beatles? Umm, yeah.

 

Jud, Ummm, no, it is the metadata, not iTunes.

 

iTunes uses the values in 3 metadata fields to organize data files in its media library: 'Artist Name', 'Album Name', and the 'Part of a Compilation' flag (PoaC).

 

Most track files get placed in a top folder, named for the 'Artist Name' value, and in a bottom folder named for "Album Name'. So as you scroll thru an iTunes Media/Music library, you see a list of Artist folders, and these can be expanded to one or more Album folders, containing the track files.

 

But, if the PoaC flag is set (checked) the Artist name becomes "Compilations" and thus is placed in the special 'Compilations' folder, again in bottom folders named for the Album Name.

 

So, a not very complicated, straight forward, organization ! But our music files get scattered around in weird ways that make them hard to find and us nervous. It is NOT iTunes fault. it is the metadata provided by Gracenote, MusicBrainz, or whomever, and the fools, idiots, and nice people that created it. Once you get that idea, fixing the organization is not so difficult.

 

If I am ripping a CD and find a bunch of different Artist names in the downloaded metadata, I now move the different names to the Track Name, or Comments fields. So a "Frank Sinatra with Barbra Streisand" becomes just "Frank Sinatra". I'll also check the PoaC to see if it needs turning off. There are other things one can do to these basic metadata fields to minimize the number of artist and album folders. They can also affect the display of album art.

 

I think lack of knowledge is fueling these scary opinions of iTunes 'Keep Organized' function, and leading to less good alt. solutions.

 

 

How could the management software work error-free for me? By simply following my folder structure... When ripping or downloading I organize recordings into folders similarly. If management software would follow my organization, I would be content.

 

I do that in iTunes by creating my own set of genre/sub-genre Playlist Folders, and ripping/dragging music to the appropriate folders.

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Am I sure it's iTunes moving one single track of a compilation under the individual artist's name, or putting two Beatles albums (Beatles for Sale and one of the two stereo singles collections from the 2009 remastered set) in Compilations rather than the Beatles? Umm, yeah.

 

Jud, Ummm, no, it is the metadata, not iTunes.

 

iTunes uses the values in 3 metadata fields to organize data files in its media library: 'Artist Name', 'Album Name', and the 'Part of a Compilation' flag (PoaC).

 

Most track files get placed in a top folder, named for the 'Artist Name' value, and in a bottom folder named for "Album Name'. So as you scroll thru an iTunes Media/Music library, you see a list of Artist folders, and these can be expanded to one or more Album folders, containing the track files.

 

But, if the PoaC flag is set (checked) the Artist name becomes "Compilations" and thus is placed in the special 'Compilations' folder, again in bottom folders named for the Album Name.

 

So, a not very complicated, straight forward, organization ! But our music files get scattered around in weird ways that make them hard to find and us nervous. It is NOT iTunes fault. it is the metadata provided by Gracenote, MusicBrainz, or whomever, and the fools, idiots, and nice people that created it. Once you get that idea, fixing the organization is not so difficult.

 

If I am ripping a CD and find a bunch of different Artist names in the downloaded metadata, I now move the different names to the Track Name, or Comments fields. So a "Frank Sinatra with Barbra Streisand" becomes just "Frank Sinatra". I'll also check the PoaC to see if it needs turning off. There are other things one can do to these basic metadata fields to minimize the number of artist and album folders. They can also affect the display of album art.

 

I think lack of knowledge is fueling these scary opinions of iTunes 'Keep Organized' function, and leading to less good alt. solutions.

 

 

Yes, certainly it's the metadata. It would be lovely for me personally, though not perhaps for those with much bigger libraries, if iTunes would allow for organization that followed my directory tree structure, giving precedence to the metadata for each recording that the existing structure indicated. (E.g., composer gets precedence for the Savall Brandenburgs, artist for some other Savall recordings, to follow the way I've laid out my folders and directories.) In saying this, I'm not claiming iTunes does anything awful or scary when it follows its metadata source rather than my directory tree, it's just inconvenient.

 

The thing is, I like to take care to do my organizing, backups, etc., on the front end. So when that's changed, it's not helping me. If I want to then make a playlist to take advantage of the metadata others have been good enough to provide, great for purposes of the playlist. But not great for me personally to make the directory tree or default order in which the library is displayed follow that metadata rather than my individually chosen directory structure.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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