If a difference is audible, is it measurable?

[bluesman]

On the other hand I don't think abstract concepts like sound stage can be measured.

If there's a difference, it can be measured - but only if we know in what parameter(s) the difference is measurable (and only if we have the equipment with which to measure whatever energy or phenomenon is affected). There may be some kind of multidimensional array to measure spatial dispersion of sound by frequency by phase, like a 3-D chess board. But as long as no one knows how, it remains an elusive quest. Maybe someday......

 

David

[Jud]

Unless of course the O.P. was asking the question as he wrote it, not as you wrote it. In other words, can the difference be detected with an instrument, in principle, if we know what physical quantity to measure, and have a device capable of doing so?

 

The question is based on the suggestion (which I think is false) that the human ear is more sensitive than any measuring device.

 

Of course the ear isn't more sensitive than any measuring device.

 

As to whether we know exactly what to measure for, sure, that's why all audio equipment from competent designers at equivalent price points, including speakers, sounds exactly the same.

[Paul R]

As well, if the difference is audible in the first place- why bother going to the time and expense of testing it on a bench when your ears and brain are perfectly capable of telling you if you like it or not? Wasted time and expense.

 

Now an audio product company? Definitely migh be worth their time to test it- if for no other reason than to learn how to duplicate it if they wish.

 

Here's some insight.......to a thread that's the inverse of one I started earlier.

 

I firmly believe that if it's audible, it's measurable.....but very difficult to properly set up and perform correctly. First things first before looking for a difference one should carefully determine if it exists in the first place........which should be a carefully developed and administered test regimen.

 

Now as to the actual measurements. It's called power response.....and it ain't easy. Sometimes polar response plots will reveal some small spacial or soundstage variance but power response can nail down even the most elusive differences.

 

.....but who's got the time for such extensive testing?....not many

 

musicanddesign.com

 

If you don't understand any of the terms, please take some time to research the definitions as the article leaves little room for interpretations.

[astrallite]

The first thing comes to mind is power cables. They seem to affect the sound of all my components. My understanding there is not a measurable difference.

 

There is a measurable difference between most cables, however the difference in the measurements themselves are often cited as being inaudible due to the differences usually being on the far ends of the audible spectrum (say at below 20Hz and above 18KHz) and only being generally in 0.05 db increments.

 

The measured differences usually do not explain the claims of "opened up midrange" for instance.

 

However depending on the element being used in the medium (copper or silver) there is well-known scientific differences in audibility.

[mayhem13]

As well, if the difference is audible in the first place- why bother going to the time and expense of testing it on a bench when your ears and brain are perfectly capable of telling you if you like it or not? Wasted time and expense.

 

???........to identify and isolate it so it can be quantified an/or removed if offensive......shall I go on?......or exactly what half these flame wars are all about in the first place. Kinda dogmatic response there pal.

[Paul R]

???........to identify and isolate it so it can be quantified an/or removed if offensive......shall I go on?......or exactly what half these flame wars are all about in the first place. Kinda dogmatic response there pal.

 

No, you just didn't read the next sentence, where I talk about audio industry reasons to fund such testing. .

 

Please provide a reason why a consumer would go to that time and expense.

[jhwalker]

No, you just didn't read the next sentence, where I talk about audio industry reasons to fund such testing. .

 

Please provide a reason why a consumer would go to that time and expense.

 

Because we are curious? My question would be: why would you *not*? I want to know how things work.

 

And that interest in how things work is *not* an inhibitor to enjoying music - some of us like to listen *and* to understand what we're hearing, and why

[Allan F]

Query:

 

If a difference is clearly audible, is it important to an equipment designer whether it is measurable or not? For example, if a designer prefers the sound of a particular capacitor, does it matter whether it measures differently than others?

[wgscott]

Sure. If you can't measure it, you can't design something to reproduce it, or improve it. The idea that engineers don't use measurements is laughable.

[mayhem13]

Because we are curious? My question would be: why would you *not*? I want to know how things work.

 

And that interest in how things work is *not* an inhibitor to enjoying music - some of us like to listen *and* to understand what we're hearing, and why

 

Agreed.

 

I think we can all 'agree' that this lot are a bit past the 'consumer' phase! Lol. We're all pretty passionate about audio and many would like to advance the position of the hobby in whatever way possible.

 

Has anyone bothered to read some of the link I posted earlier? I know it's a bit in depth compared to the ADC white papers that are more commonly exchanged here, but I really encourage people to spend some time with it.

[mayhem13]

Query:

 

If a difference is clearly audible, is it important to an equipment designer whether it is measurable or not? For example, if a designer prefers the sound of a particular capacitor, does it matter whether it measures differently than others?

 

Good point. As a designer, in order to develop and prove the design, it would be important to know why the capacitor changed the sound. This is common practice in speaker design, and it's measurable in the response.

[Paul R]

Because we are curious? My question would be: why would you *not*? I want to know how things work.

 

And that interest in how things work is *not* an inhibitor to enjoying music - some of us like to listen *and* to understand what we're hearing, and why

 

I can see that. Just a different perspective I suppose. Mostly, I would be unwilling to invest a couple thousand dollars in testing the equipment on a personal basis, since my goal is usually not to replicate or publish an analysis of it.

 

This is one thing the magazines, or at least Stereophile, is very well worth its subscription cost for. $15/year for trustworthy measurements. Stereo Review is looked down upon today, but they did have a point - it is very useful to measure the devil out of everything and report it. As long as the cost is not excessive.

[Boris75]

I am sure modern equipment can measure anything the ear+brain system can detect.

[Daudio]

Is it true that Jehovah's Witnesses spin in the opposite direction south of the equator?

 

 

OMG !! evidence that Dennis really does have a sense of humor !

 

Perhaps you are just now trying after a reminder, but good non-the-less

[mayhem13]

I can see that. Just a different perspective I suppose. Mostly, I would be unwilling to invest a couple thousand dollars in testing the equipment on a personal basis, since my goal is usually not to replicate or publish an analysis of it.

 

This is one thing the magazines, or at least Stereophile, is very well worth its subscription cost for. $15/year for trustworthy measurements. Stereo Review is looked down upon today, but they did have a point - it is very useful to measure the devil out of everything and report it. As long as the cost is not excessive.

 

Dayton OmniMic....nice complete measurement suite you can have up and running in less than an hour $300.....cheaper when on sale. While I agree that stereophiles measurements are spot on, given the acoustics of your space, they're of little value IF you use them to predetermine a purchase worthy.

 

I'd LOVE to have an OmniMic kit available to CA readers for loan. A member could plop down a deposit, use the kit and return it after a determinate period and ship it back for a refund.....then on to the next member. I would bet that members would even fork over a $25 or so fee for shipping both ways and a few extra $$$ to cover maintanence.

 

Hint hint Chris C. We could start a new forum topic where members could ask questions as to use and configuration as well as post measurements for evaluation AND a database for those that would be worthy of referral. Sound good?

[Paul R]

Dayton OmniMic....nice complete measurement suite you can have up and running in less than an hour $300.....cheaper when on sale. While I agree that stereophiles measurements are spot on, given the acoustics of your space, they're of little value IF you use them to predetermine a purchase worthy.

 

I'd LOVE to have an OmniMic kit available to CA readers for loan. A member could plop down a deposit, use the kit and return it after a determinate period and ship it back for a refund.....then on to the next member. I would bet that members would even fork over a $25 or so fee for shipping both ways and a few extra $$$ to cover maintanence.

 

Hint hint Chris C. We could start a new forum topic where members could ask questions as to use and configuration as well as post measurements for evaluation AND a database for those that would be worthy of referral. Sound good?

 

That is a nice piece of kit - and I like your idea of a shared kit for CA.

 

I was thinking more of lab measurements, like jitter and response, but this makes perfect sense too.

 

-Paul

[realhifi]

Are there differences you (or an even more gifted audiophile) can hear that cannot be measured?

 

How about if two speakers measure identical but use different materials for drivers?

Say, one uses a metal dome tweeter and a plastic woofer and the other uses a silk dome tweeter and paper cone material for bass driver.

[esldude]

How about if two speakers measure identical but use different materials for drivers?

Say, one uses a metal dome tweeter and a plastic woofer and the other uses a silk dome tweeter and paper cone material for bass driver.

 

Usually such a difference in the driver material also measures differently. Different resonance, breakup patterns, and directivity.

[gmgraves]

There is a measurable difference between most cables, however the difference in the measurements themselves are often cited as being inaudible due to the differences usually being on the far ends of the audible spectrum (say at below 20Hz and above 18KHz) and only being generally in 0.05 db increments.

 

The measured differences usually do not explain the claims of "opened up midrange" for instance.

 

However depending on the element being used in the medium (copper or silver) there is well-known scientific differences in audibility.

 

 

Low frequencies? I agree with you that the effect that cables exhibit on signals increases as frequency increases (even that occurs only at frequencies much higher than audio or with runs longer than about 50 ft for speaker wire, and 20 ft for interconnects), I don't think that there are any phenomena of physics that would account for cables affecting the bottom end of the spectrum.

[gmgraves]

If there's a difference, it can be measured - but only if we know in what parameter(s) the difference is measurable (and only if we have the equipment with which to measure whatever energy or phenomenon is affected). There may be some kind of multidimensional array to measure spatial dispersion of sound by frequency by phase, like a 3-D chess board. But as long as no one knows how, it remains an elusive quest. Maybe someday......

 

David

 

Yes, correlating a measurement with what we actually hear is the difficult part of this question.

[sandyk]

I don't think that there are any phenomena of physics that would account for cables affecting the bottom end of the spectrum.

 

George

I have shown in a screen grab elsewhere that drums for example have an initial VERY fast envelope rise time.

Low capacitance cables such as the LC1 from Blue Jeans cables can in very revealing systems make them sound a little too metallic sounding. In other systems some may find they like them better for that reason.

 

Alex

[gmgraves]

George

I have shown in a screen grab elsewhere that drums for example have an initial VERY fast envelope rise time.

Low capacitance cables such as the LC1 from Blue Jeans cables can in very revealing systems make them sound a little too metallic sounding. In other systems some may find they like them better for that reason.

 

Alex

 

Yes, but the fast envelope and fast rise times are HIGH Frequency events, even though the drum fundamental itself might be very low.

[sandyk]

Yes, but the fast envelope and fast rise times are HIGH Frequency events, even though the drum fundamental itself might be very low.

 

Yes, but that's what makes all the difference to what is basically considered by most people as LF content.

[gmgraves]

Yes, but that's what makes all the difference to what is basically considered by most people as LF content.

 

Well, there is hope for the ignorant, but it must be of the self help kind.

[4est]

Are you saying that AC and DC act the same, and have the same characteristics? Surely not! It is a continuum, and needs to be viewed as thus. The issues with audio band freq are not the extremes, the net frequency band size, and that the signals behave very differently across that range. Bear in mind that I am of the belief(experience) that things should be capable of an order of magnitude beyond what is required to not exhibit performance degradations. I feel this may often be one of the primary stumbling blocks when measurements are the sole testing criteria.

Low frequencies? I agree with you that the effect that cables exhibit on signals increases as frequency increases (even that occurs only at frequencies much higher than audio or with runs longer than about 50 ft for speaker wire, and 20 ft for interconnects), I don't think that there are any phenomena of physics that would account for cables affecting the bottom end of the spectrum.