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Do all DACs sound more or less the same?


Do DACS all sound the same?  

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The Benchmark DAC2 is reviewed in the latest Stereophile. The review itself is somewhat suspect as the reviewer did not seem to know how to properly connect it to his PC (he use USB 1.1 mode for some reason). However, the measurements were pretty stunning. This is a DAC where it would be hard to argue that it has any audible jitter at all. I don't know if all DACs sound alike, but I don't see how any DAC could sound truer to the input than this one.

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The Benchmark DAC2 is reviewed in the latest Stereophile. The review itself is somewhat suspect as the reviewer did not seem to know how to properly connect it to his PC (he use USB 1.1 mode for some reason). However, the measurements were pretty stunning. This is a DAC where it would be hard to argue that it has any audible jitter at all. I don't know if all DACs sound alike, but I don't see how any DAC could sound truer to the input than this one.

 

Thanks for the report. I can concur in the sense that I am certainly very pleased with the sound of my DAC2.

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any well designed dac(read any dac produced in the last 10 years) is going to sound the same as any other dac. audiophiles disagree, but fail to ever produce any proof that their golden ears are right. they always fail DBTs, and the mountain of evidence is undeniable.

 

 

I beg to differ, sir. Not only do different DAC boxes sound different, but different DAC chips sound different as well. The reason is simple. Different circuit topologies produce different results. The only way that all DACs would ever sound alike is if all DAC differences were below the threshold of human hearing. Then, they would, indeed, all sound the same. But while current technology can build active devices where some of the parameter differences might be below the threshold of hearing, not all of them are, not by a long shot, and every design decision has consequences that are most likely, audible.

George

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Look at the DAC market, dozens and dozens of vendors in the same price band. A market that fragmented tells me that all the products are sufficiently identical as to not make a difference. If a vendor produced a DAC that was that much better than the rest, the buyers would line up and market would consolidate.

 

A reasonably good case for "All class X (where X= A, D, AB, etc) amps of the same wattage sound the same" can be made, but the market appears equally fragmented.

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Look at the DAC market, dozens and dozens of vendors in the same price band. A market that fragmented tells me that all the products are sufficiently identical as to not make a difference. If a vendor produced a DAC that was that much better than the rest, the buyers would line up and market would consolidate.

 

Yes, a superior product always pulls the market to it, as illustrated by VHS and Beta. Oh, wait....

 

Both VHS and Beta had wide product awareness and distribution in all important markets, while this is not at all the case for DACs. Thus if your theory should have applied anywhere, it would have been to the VHS and Beta situation.

 

Perhaps you can tell us what an objectively superior product would be when:

 

- The sound of a DAC comes in significant part from the DAC chip and filtering it uses;

 

- There is a large variety of DAC chips and filtering choices in the market, from minimum phase to linear phase to apodizing, none objectively perfect;

 

- In fact, none of the general types of filter choices is objectively better than any other, let alone objectively perfect; each has well known advantages and disadvantages. (I could list them if you like.)

 

- Some people prefer the advantages of one type of filter, some prefer the advantages of another, some prefer a compromise. That leaves a great deal of room for buyers to prefer different DACs.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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Look at the DAC market, dozens and dozens of vendors in the same price band. A market that fragmented tells me that all the products are sufficiently identical as to not make a difference. If a vendor produced a DAC that was that much better than the rest, the buyers would line up and market would consolidate.

I can't follow that logic. If all examples of a given class of goods are essentially identical, that class of goods becomes a commodity and the lowest priced producer can drive most competitors from the market. How many brands of white sugar do you see?

Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted.

- Einstein

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I can't follow that logic. If all examples of a given class of goods are essentially identical, that class of goods becomes a commodity and the lowest priced producer can drive most competitors from the market. How many brands of white sugar do you see?

 

I think a closer analogy might be how many makers for containers of sugar.

 

Hey, if they work like they should, all DACs are pretty close. Not quite identical, but pretty close. You have some departing from that on purpose. Otherwise, the basic DAC function is held in various boxes, with various connections, etc. etc. Much closer to it being DAC containers in the marketplace. There are at least hundreds of makers of sugar containers. DAC containers too.

 

I am reminded of getting one of the Test CD's which had a track that was a 100th generation copy. It sounded different though not nearly so much as you might think. Several of us listened to it and said "okay, it does sound a bit different, so digital isn't really perfect." A late arriving friend came in asked what we were listening to. Oh he wanted to hear that 100th gen copy. We played it for him. He got a big smile on his face, and said, "boy, can you imagine what that would sound like on reel to reel tape. After 5 generations you might have a hard time recognizing it. After a 100 it would only be garbled noise." And he was right. Sometimes people seem to want so bad for digital to be more flawed than it is (and I am not saying it is perfect). But actually basic middle of the road digital is damn near magical in how good it is.

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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I can't follow that logic. If all examples of a given class of goods are essentially identical, that class of goods becomes a commodity and the lowest priced producer can drive most competitors from the market. How many brands of white sugar do you see?

 

Ah, but if as a manufacturer, you marketed your sugar as being special, and better than anyone else's sugar, you could differentiate your product from another brand that is, essentially, just the same. If you did that, and charge significantly more money for your sugar, you would find people who would agree that your sugar actually was better, and flock to it. These people would swear on a stack of Bibles that your sugar is the best there is and are willing to spend the money to buy the best. Then, rather than commoditize your sugar and lump it in (sorry, couldn't resist) with the other sugar, you will have created a lucrative niche market for your high-end sugar.

George

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Maybe a better commodity example is salt.

 

Morton's at least in the USA is by a wide margin the most widely available salt brand. More than 100 years ago they had a marketing idea. And thus was born the Morton's girl and their at the time unique container. The girl was holding an umbrella with rain falling, and under her arm was a Morton's salt container with salt pouring out with the slogan "When it rains it pours". Their container and spout allowed one to pour salt even in damp weather. Others at the time would attract moisture and get clumpy. It was all about the container of a commodity.

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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Look at the DAC market, dozens and dozens of vendors in the same price band. A market that fragmented tells me that all the products are sufficiently identical as to not make a difference. If a vendor produced a DAC that was that much better than the rest, the buyers would line up and market would consolidate.

 

This makes no sense at all. How the market tells you "that all the products are sufficiently identical as to not make a difference" is beyond me. Since when did choice and competition amount to products being identical? Not to mention the fact that new products are continually being brought to market that offer superior sound quality and/or capabilities compared to what was available before.

"Relax, it's only hi-fi. There's never been a hi-fi emergency." - Roy Hall

"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." - William Bruce Cameron

 

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My wife buys "Himalayan pink rock salt". She insists she can taste the difference.

 

Well the pink color comes from iron. Haven't tried that salt, but I know it takes little iron in well water to give it a taste. So it certainly seems plausible. I have seen it in the store a time or two. Noticed it due to the pink color.

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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We have that too. It tastes of asbestos.

 

Well asbestos is a natural product so it must be good for you.

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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Look at the anti-aging wrinkle cream market, dozens and dozens of vendors in the same price band. A market that fragmented tells me that all the products are sufficiently identical as to not make a difference. If a vendor produced an anti-aging wrinkle cream that was that much better than the rest, the buyers would line up and market would consolidate.

 

LOL!!! :D :D :D

 

You can substitute a whole whack of products into that insightful analysis.

 

cheers

ken

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Look at the anti-aging wrinkle cream market, dozens and dozens of vendors in the same price band. A market that fragmented tells me that all the products are sufficiently identical as to not make a difference. If a vendor produced an anti-aging wrinkle cream that was that much better than the rest, the buyers would line up and market would consolidate.

LOL!!! :D :D :D

 

You can substitute a whole whack of products into that insightful analysis.

 

cheers

ken

Actually, there is such a cream. It's called tretinoin (Retin A). It's a pharmaceutical, so not marketed by cosmetic companies. It also costs a fraction of what commercial "beauty creams" cost, despite those products all being basically vaseline or sorbolene with a lot of nice-smelling, French-sounding, stuff added.

Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted.

- Einstein

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My wife buys "Himalayan pink rock salt". She insists she can taste the difference.

 

Something I never understood. Most table salt, including Mortons, is mined from deep underground, and that sold as sea salt is from evaporation ponds near the oceans. The mined salt was once sea salt (just many eons ago) and sea salt was in the ocean much more recently. One would think that chemically, sea water would be the same everywhere on earth and from every era. Yet sea salt definitely tastes better (more complex) than mined table salt. Is mined table salt (non-iodized kind) purified somehow and so called sea salt isn't, or are we definitely in the realm interconnect sound here with this?

George

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Sea salt is obtained directly through the evaporation of seawater. It is usually not processed, or undergoes minimal processing, and therefore retains trace levels of minerals like magnesium, potassium, calcium and other nutrients.

 

Table salt, on the other hand, is mined from salt deposits and then processed to give it a fine texture so it’s easier to mix and use in recipes. Processing strips table salt of any minerals it may have contained, and additives are also usually incorporated to prevent clumping or caking.

 

So they aren't the same, but do they really taste different?

 

Some testing indicates on foods where salt is sprinkled they do blind test differently. But it was found that is due to the different flake size of the salt crystals. Make the size of salt flakes the same, and no difference. In cooking where salt is cooked in where it will be dissolved no difference found.

 

A comment in one test is one that applies elsewhere:

 

Why did Pepsi's taste test results from their Pepsi challenge never translate into more sales? Because people never drink cola blind. They see the label.

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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