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Do all DACs sound more or less the same?


Do DACS all sound the same?  

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......and if it added 'so much' bass response then you can draw only two conclusions....one, the analog stage of your previous DAC tilted or sloped the response downwards to present a cleaner, more discernable midrange( a common high end audiophilia tactic) or your new DAC has a flatter response OR a tilt elsewhere in the analog response. Glad you enjoy the new DAC as that's what upgrades are all about.......but important to understand that changes you're experiencing are on the analog side AND a direct contradiction to what a DAC is supposed to do.....accurately convert the digital waveform to analog.

 

IF ALL DAC manufacturers held this in high regards, all DACs would and SHOULd sound identical, therefore rendering the market place lopsided based purely on price, appearance and reliability.....or in other words, not much of a market at all. There's currently not much of a market now, so the creation of additional needed components for USB, converters, high Res and now DSD simply develops a market where none should exist.

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And you could develop a relationship between reduced jitter and a greatly increased output of low frequency content? I'd be most interested in understanding the relationship.

 

All the big dogs in the subjective world say so. Close in low frequency jitter is the most noticeable they say. And it makes the most difference in how solid the low bass is. Things that make you go HMMMMMMM!

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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And you could develop a relationship between reduced jitter and a greatly increased output of low frequency content? I'd be most interested in understanding the relationship.

 

I'm not talking about "greatly increased output of low frequency content", but a better bass (deeper, steady and integrated with all the frequencies and matching the played music instrument sound characteristics and integration), like when you listen to Bryan Bromberg's "Wood" playing the double bass.

 

But, I'm sorry, I don't have at hand a graph (or a plot) showing this..., but jitter is more noticeable (at least to me) at lower frequencies. This with two DACS, the Playback Designs & TEAC HD-501

 

BTW, I'm sorry Dennis not following your "instructions" at the beginning of the thread, but I didn't started what I'm answering...

 

Roch

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All the big dogs in the subjective world say so. Close in low frequency jitter is the most noticeable they say. And it makes the most difference in how solid the low bass is. Things that make you go HMMMMMMM!

 

Maybe the "dogs" (the big & the chihuahua) are more on your world, that you believe is the objective one...!

 

Tell me one thing, how can you listen better to jitter on high frequencies if you don't believe in this threshold? At least in humans, because "dogs" yes, they can (but maybe they don't care about jitter).

 

Roch

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I'm not talking about "greatly increased output of low frequency content", but .........

 

 

Roch

 

..............but my response was to the post proceeding mine where the poster states." So much more bass it actually feels...."

 

......and so i inquired to your reply how reduced jitter could be responsible. Not looking to argue or muddle Dennis' thread. Just clarifying my responses. Thank you.

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Maybe the "dogs" (the big & the chihuahua) are more on your world, that you believe is the objective one...!

 

Tell me one thing, how can you listen better to jitter on high frequencies if you don't believe in this threshold? At least in humans, because "dogs" yes, they can (but maybe they don't care about jitter).

 

Roch

 

Jitter creates more effect the higher in frequency you go. Not lower, and yes I know tons of people say that is where they hear it most. If it is enough you hear it at low frequencies, you should hear it a lot more at higher frequencies. Why? Because time shifts are a bigger percentage of the signal with shorter timed signals (high frequencies).

 

As for belief in the threshold, well there is no belief. Jitter if in high enough amounts is audible. Usually it isn't anywhere near high enough to hear, and by its nature will effect highs more than lows.

 

Further I would ask, between your two DAC's do you know the relative jitter level, and if not how do you know the differences you hear are from jitter and not some other cause?

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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BTW guys, this is not my thread. It is wgscotts. And I don't believe he had any guidelines other than asking "what do you think?"

 

So perfectly fine to say you think it shows up in low more etc. Us other folks are just discussing why somebody does or doesn't think that.

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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..............but my response was to the post proceeding mine where the poster states." So much more bass it actually feels...."

 

......and so i inquired to your reply how reduced jitter could be responsible. Not looking to argue or muddle Dennis' thread. Just clarifying my responses. Thank you.

 

Mayhem13 you have a PM from me.

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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......and if it added 'so much' bass response then you can draw only two conclusions....one, the analog stage of your previous DAC tilted or sloped the response downwards to present a cleaner, more discernable midrange( a common high end audiophilia tactic) or your new DAC has a flatter response OR a tilt elsewhere in the analog response. Glad you enjoy the new DAC as that's what upgrades are all about.......but important to understand that changes you're experiencing are on the analog side AND a direct contradiction to what a DAC is supposed to do.....accurately convert the digital waveform to analog.

 

IF ALL DAC manufacturers held this in high regards, all DACs would and SHOULd sound identical, therefore rendering the market place lopsided based purely on price, appearance and reliability.....or in other words, not much of a market at all. There's currently not much of a market now, so the creation of additional needed components for USB, converters, high Res and now DSD simply develops a market where none should exist.

 

While you are right about analog stages that aren't flat in frequency response, there is more to it than that. I was talking to someone (don't know his name), at MSB. He said that MSB, several years ago, built a breadboard that allowed them to plug different D/As into their DAC design so that everything was the same except for the DAC itself. He went on to say that they were all quite taken aback at how different all these DACs sounded in the same circuit even though that was the only variable. So clearly, IC based monolithic Delta/Sigma DACs are not all the same as many "objectivists" say they are. He further stated that their research led them to the conclusion that everything mattered in DAC design; the analog stages, the power supplies, and even the same brand and model DAC chip vary in sound from unit to unit. That's why they decided to make their own D/A converters from discrete components.

George

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Of course swapping DAC chips in and out of the same circuit will sound different....the chips IO will be dependant on circuit impedance as well as countless other parameters. Not sure there was any real value in that exercise. Implementation is equally important as the chip itself. Add USB to the mix, and things become even more variable.

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Of course swapping DAC chips in and out of the same circuit will sound different....the chips IO will be dependant on circuit impedance as well as countless other parameters. Not sure there was any real value in that exercise. Implementation is equally important as the chip itself. Add USB to the mix, and things become even more variable.

 

 

I take it for granted that a company like MSB, having gone to the trouble to build such a test platform will have taken that into consideration, don't you think so too?

George

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any well designed dac(read any dac produced in the last 10 years) is going to sound the same as any other dac. audiophiles disagree, but fail to ever produce any proof that their golden ears are right. they always fail DBTs, and the mountain of evidence is undeniable.

All you need to make a record is a mic, some tape and maybe some bad reverb...

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New here but I was blown away by a change of dacs. Short version, new Arcam FMJ dac, sounds really nice, blows the USB channel, warrantied with a new Cary Audio DAC100T and man it rocked my system unbelievably. So much more bass actually felt like it added a whole new dimension. Same everything else.

 

 

it wasnt the change in dac. it was your brain fooling you. id stake my life on it. a dac adding bass?? LOL! Just...no.

All you need to make a record is a mic, some tape and maybe some bad reverb...

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it wasnt the change in dac. it was your brain fooling you. id stake my life on it. a dac adding bass?? LOL! Just...no.

You are wrong. A DAC with very low Jitter may have a better low end, because low level harmonics are less masked by system noise and other digital artifacts. Less Jitter doesn't just improve HF detail.A drum "whack" for instance can be demonstrated to have a very sharply rising envelope. It makes quite a difference to it's impact if "Jitter" is low.

Note also the tiny HF details at the highest peaks of the waveform. Even a very low capacitance interconnect can sometimes make drums sound a little too metallic.

 

ji57.jpg

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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any well designed dac(read any dac produced in the last 10 years) is going to sound the same as any other dac. Audiophiles disagree, but fail to ever produce any proof that their golden ears are right. They always fail dbts, and the mountain of evidence is undeniable.

 

 

troll alert !

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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I miss one option for a vote: Dacs sounds different from each other because of different construction and quality. I think that is enough without going into details.

 

100% correct

Chord CPM-2600 - integrated amplifier - Chord One - cd player - Acoustat 1+1 - speakers.

Life without Acoustat is possible BUT senseless

 

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I miss one option for a vote: Dacs sounds different from each other because of different construction and quality. I think that is enough without going into details.

 

cf:

There are audible differences only when a DAC is defective (either by design or damage)
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Does the definition of 'troll' now include anyone who subscribes to and voices a theory that certain people don't care for?

 

It has been that way for a long time for anyone who voices an opinion contrary to that of SandykAlex and/or thinks files with identical md5sums can sound different (a topic he enjoys injecting in every thread).

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Does the definition of 'troll' now include anyone who subscribes to and voices a theory that certain people don't care for?

 

No, of course not. But that doesn't look like it is stated as the opinion it is. Neither did the follow up remark:

 

it wasnt the change in dac. it was your brain fooling you. id stake my life on it. a dac adding bass?? LOL! Just...no.

 

What would you call it?

 

It is, by the way, a more polite than usual repetition of the same sentiment that has flowered here before, and grows rampant in places like the GasBag forum's fertile fields.

 

-Paul

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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