Headphones v. Speakers

[dalethorn]

?????? Please re-read my post. You must be confusing me for someone else. I thought my comment was pretty clear, but somehow you missed it. You wrote the following: "With speakers, 89 percent of the sound is smeared before it reaches the ears due to reflections." You don't qualify that comment in any way. So what you are telling us is that with all speakers (monopole, bipole, dipole, omnipole, etc.), and regardless of the listening room size, shape and configuration, and regardless of the listening position, exactly 89% "of the sound" arriving at the listening position is smeared due to reflections. Please explain- show us the proof. Please stay on point.

 

So you claim that these average speaker users on this forum who are not audio engineers or very wealthy consumers are getting their rooms configured with dipoles and damping materials and EQ boxes or whatever eliminates room resonances, so they have a very neutral sound as is easy to achieve with headphones? I think that is the key to this discussion, and not a theory of what is possible but unlikely to be achieved by the average middle-class speaker user.

[dalethorn]

Here's another excellent article showing the enormous complexity of room and speaker interaction:

 

http://www.harmanaudio.com/all_about_audio/loudspeakers_rooms.pdf

[Blake]

Here's a small AES article that examines some of the issues with rooms, some interesting types of comparison tests, etc.

 

http://xenona.com/xenonaupl/Ivo_Hristev/AES-tutorials/aesTutorial91.pdf

 

 

 

"CONCLUSION

It has long been noticed that sound

reproduction in an anechoic chamber is

not a particularly pleasant experience,

nor a natural one. Human listeners

expect reflections and have learned to

deal with them."

[dalethorn]

"CONCLUSION

It has long been noticed that sound

reproduction in an anechoic chamber is

not a particularly pleasant experience,

nor a natural one. Human listeners

expect reflections and have learned to

deal with them."

 

Here's a better quote from AudiophileReview: "The problem is never about hearing or not hearing the main signal. The problem is hearing the subtle detail within the signal. The main signal will always have a strong tonal presence that combines with dozens of lower level partials or overtones. Some overtones are very low in level. When audiophiles listen over quality headphones even these quiet musical details are readily apparent. But when the same selection is played back through a room-based sound system, these quieter musical details disappear, rendering the playback less involving. "

[Jud]

 

BTW, you're once again in denial about reflections.

 

Once again?

[Blake]

So you claim that these average speaker users on this forum who are not audio engineers or very wealthy consumers are getting their rooms configured with dipoles and damping materials and EQ boxes or whatever eliminates room resonances, so they have a very neutral sound as is easy to achieve with headphones? I think that is the key to this discussion, and not a theory of what is possible but unlikely to be achieved by the average middle-class speaker user.

 

Honestly, are you directing this at me or someone else? You continue to ascribe "claims" to me that I did not make.

[dalethorn]

Once again?

 

The discussion here seems to be two things - one is a chatroom discussionof preferences where factual details take second place to comfort and experience, and the other tries to prove that "speakers are better" or "speakers are more accurate" etc.

 

You wouldn't have to explicitly state a fallacy here, but if your argument relies on such an assumption, then you have to deal with those assumptions if someone points them out.

[dalethorn]

Honestly, are you directing this at me or someone else? You continue to ascribe "claims" to me that I did not make.

 

I just posted a note about assumptions that people make that they would prefer not to be responsible for because they didn't personally state the unstated. So maybe instead of trying to derail this topic by making it personal (and I am definitely not making it personal because I'm not making any notes about what you personally say, even now), maybe you can instead refute the factual arguments I've made, many of them from peer-reviewed articles.

[dalethorn]

Honestly, are you directing this at me or someone else? You continue to ascribe "claims" to me that I did not make.

 

BTW, you demanded that I stay on point, so I would like you to do that too - namely not to make accusations of incorrect stats or demands of proof of anything, but rather you can do what I do - dig up your own proof and present it here.

[Jud]

Honestly, are you directing this at me or someone else? You continue to ascribe "claims" to me that I did not make.

 

I think I'm getting it (and sure I'll hear if I'm wrong). dalethorn appears to view this discussion as having exactly two "sides," and if you're not "with him" (asking for actual facts to back up sweeping assertions as you did, or poking gentle fun at the global 89% statement with a photo of an early model Bose 901, as I did) why then, you're agin' 'im.

[dalethorn]

I think I'm getting it (and sure I'll hear if I'm wrong). dalethorn appears to view this discussion as having exactly two "sides," and if you're not "with him" (asking for actual facts to back up sweeping assertions as you did, or poking gentle fun at the global 89% statement with a photo of an early model Bose 901, as I did) why then, you're agin' 'im.

 

Taking the paranoia viewpoint is again derailing the topic by making it personal instead of objective. That may not be a personal attack, but you're getting close.

[Blake]

I think I'm getting it (and sure I'll hear if I'm wrong). dalethorn appears to view this discussion as having exactly two "sides," and if you're not "with him" (asking for actual facts to back up sweeping assertions as you did, or poking gentle fun at the global 89% statement with a photo of an early model Bose 901, as I did) why then, you're agin' 'im.

 

I think you are right Jud. Its all black and white with Dale. Ergo, I must hate my headphones. Anyone want to buy my crusty old Grado's or my new Sennheisers?

[Jud]

In an attempt to bring the thread back to the world of reality: For anyone who cares to know, I personally have exactly zero feelings of the nature of "speakers are better" or "speakers are more accurate." I have two systems with speakers (one nearfield, the other not) and also own headphones (in-ear monitors). I like them all a lot. They are of course different. I get what I think is a more realistic soundstage with the non-nearfield speakers. The nearfield speakers, by virtue of being restricted in low end frequency response, not far from each other, and very close to me, don't provide as large a soundstage, or one with as much bottom. The IEMs don't provide as realistic a soundstage because I've never yet had a singer or instrumentalist stand on top of or inside my head in real life, which is where I hear many performers when wearing IEMs.

 

IEMs are of course marvelous for travel, and also, because of their ability to cancel background noise (I think -32db with mine), they're great for detail-oriented listening like following particular instrumental lines in jazz ensemble, chamber music, or orchestra settings. My non-nearfield speakers don't do a bad job of that either.

 

I can't speak for Blake, though I know he got a nice pair of headphones for himself recently.

[dalethorn]

I think you are right Jud. Its all black and white with Dale. Ergo, I must hate my headphones. Anyone want to buy my crusty old Grado's or my new Sennheisers?

 

It's not black and white in those articles I posted, or are you going to say they're all wrong too? You are making it obvious here that facts don't matter to you, you just want to make accusations. Sour grapes.

[dalethorn]

In an attempt to bring the thread back to the world of reality: For anyone who cares to know, I personally have exactly zero feelings of the nature of "speakers are better" or "speakers are more accurate." I have two systems with speakers (one nearfield, the other not) and also own headphones (in-ear monitors). I like them all a lot. They are of course different. I get what I think is a more realistic soundstage with the non-nearfield speakers. The nearfield speakers, by virtue of being restricted in low end frequency response, not far from each other, and very close to me, don't provide as large a soundstage, or one with as much bottom. The IEMs don't provide as realistic a soundstage because I've never yet had a singer or instrumentalist stand on top of or inside my head in real life, which is where I hear many performers when wearing IEMs.

 

IEMs are of course marvelous for travel, and also, because of their ability to cancel background noise (I think -32db with mine), they're great for detail-oriented listening like following particular instrumental lines in jazz ensemble, chamber music, or orchestra settings. My non-nearfield speakers don't do a bad job of that either.

 

I can't speak for Blake, though I know he got a nice pair of headphones for himself recently.

 

I've owned more than 100 headphones since the late 70s including Stax and Sennheiser 800 (HD and IE), and many speakers I also like quite a bit. As I said, people who express a personal preference for one or the other aren't making an argument. But there are quite a few arguments here.

[Jsmith]

I am going to focus on my preference, as that is probably the only thing I can speak of with authority on this topic.

 

About a year ago I moved away from my speaker setup to a headphone due to family reasons. I think each has it's merits, but for me they break down like this:

 

Adjustment

Speakers have greater tweakablity. You can spend infinite hours adjusting speaker setup, listening position, sound absorption..... Headphones are much more set it and forget it. While I enjoy tweaking, I just don't have the cycles to spend on it and appreciate how easy headphones are to throw on and go.

 

Detail

I have a recording I use for reference on all listening evaluations. When I moved to my headphone setup, I suddenly heard small background noises and details I had never noticed before on my speakers.

 

Involvement

Headphones have never been able to simulate the involvement I had with my speakers. There is just something about a bass hit in the chest that moves me. I had more hair raising on arms and neck experiences with my speakers than I get with my headphones.

 

Price

I think a decent headphone setup can be had for much cheaper than a stereo. Part of this is just due to amount of components that may be needed in a speaker setup. I had speakers, speaker stands, subs, cables, bass traps, reflection panels.....

 

Space

I tried to have a dedicated listening space that I could tailor for my stereo. The sound was great, but just not practical. My headphone system sits in my office. During the day I can use them as background while working, and switch to dedicated listening at night.

 

Conclusion

If I had the space and money, I would go speaker first with headphones playing second chair. Given personal constraints, I find headphones give me a great listening experience that can work for me.

[squidly]

Jsmith-

I'm about to do the same thing and transition from a speaker setup to a headphone setup.

I have different reasons than most people.

Over the last 1.5 years, I've swapped gear and cables to get my 2-channel system to sound exactly the way I want. I'm extremely pleased with how it sounds.

 

 

Reasons to switch:

1. Involvement: I guess this is a personal preference, but to me headphones are much more intimate and I really listen to the lyrics, story and progression of the song. I can lay on the couch and get completely lost in an entire album. With speakers, while I do love the sound impact to my chest and the vast soundstage, for some reason I'll listen to half of a song and want to skip to the next track. This isn't just my system either. I've heard systems that are nearing 100K, set up perfectly in a room built by an acoustician, and again, the sound is impressive, but I don't get lost in the music. I guess I just have some goofy disconnect with speakers.

2. My wife and kids are taking over my listening room: This room also happens to have a TV in it and it gets used a lot all of the sudden (it never used to). The other room I could use also has a TV and is where my son plays video games. The only time I can listen is when they're gone and I'm not busy at that same time. So I've decided to set up a headphone listening area downstairs next to the fireplace. Nothing has to be hidden away or kept tidy, because well, it's in the basement.

 

Maybe I'll build a 2-channel system again when the kids move out, but for now I'm going with headphones.

[nemick]

Choosing between headphones and speakers is indeed a personal choice, and good fodder for a chat forum, but it doesn't contribute to resolving the controversies as described in the AES article.

 

My bad, I didn't realize I was supposed to contribute to resolving controversies in an AES article.

[Mir]

In order for me to enjoy speakers more than headphones, I have to have a dedicated room with treatments/etc. Very inconvenient and not really possible in my current living condition/lifestyle. Therefore, I love my HD800 + TB Isone combo for audiophile listening, and get all the chest pumping music in my car.

[tne]

Has any one here evaluated or used this with their headphone setup?

 

https://fongaudio.com/out-of-your-head-software/

[dalethorn]

My bad, I didn't realize I was supposed to contribute to resolving controversies in an AES article.

 

I assumed the readers here were serious about their hi-fi and wanted to learn and solve some of those issues related to sound, distortions, etc. But you seem to regard that with contempt.

[Moosbrugger]

J

...Reasons to switch:

With speakers, while I do love the sound impact to my chest and the vast soundstage,...

 

Do people generally listen to their music loud enough to "feel the bass"?

[jhwalker]

Do people generally listen to their music loud enough to "feel the bass"?

 

My system will definitely allow me to "feel the bass" . . . but if I turn it up loud enough to do so, I also feel my neighbors' pounding on the walls of my townhome

 

Gotta get my own house . . .

[Perlik]

John

 

That is typically why I have chosen Genelec monitors 8260a as you can feel very good bass without pushing the volume. The rendering is very good and with nice impact in the bass register... although it is not a pure HiFi system in term of image and sensitivity. But that was the trade-off I had to do and I do not regret.

 

This of course do not exclude headphones usage, which I found complementary.

Frank

[Ragingfighter]

I think there are some on this form that I have read that have legitimate reasoning but keep in mind I believe headphones and speakers for fulfill opposite sides of the gambit. Headphones are primarily going to give you a greater sense of detail like the delicacies of fingers playing strings on the guitar or the touches of pushing down on saxophone notes. In general this is the case mainly because even a normal bass may actually drown out those delicacies let alone the rest of the speakers playing what they play in a room treated or not. It also comes down to a level of logic and physics you have speakers posted over your ears with headphones that are either sealed or not and they are a lot closer than speakers will ever be to you unless if you're standing right in front of one. Which means sounds will have to travel far less to your ear than any speaker that's sounding off in your room let alone any of the sound bouncing off furniture floor ceiling etc.

 

To me they haFill two very different things one with headphones you get high detail especially if you have a really good set up meeting good headphone DAC and so on. Speakers will also give you high detail with the loss of some even at a good level or even great level for that matter but consider this. consider like you're inside of an auditorium I will classify headphones being right near or even sitting in the position of the musician playing an instrument where you can hear the keys be impressed and so on with that high detail, speakers on the other hand I would consider more like if you're in the audience anywhere from first row all the way to mid row seating in the venue. It also depends on what an individual's preferences they like stronger base then obviously you're not going for accuracy but also I believe if you're gone for too much accuracy it gets to a point if you let it consume you he may actually lose the true enjoyment of all aspects of the song. Believe me I very much appreciate perfection as I strive to be a perfectionist and somethings but I do find it times it can and go for you and you can't forget to just enjoy what you're listening to and ultimately that's the most important thing to do whether it is by the great pair of headphones a great set of speakers and really that's what matters most. The real kicker of this is sound is as much about science as it is about feeling if we didn't care about proving scientific points we sure as hell wouldn't feel or care about what we listen to so much. My point is the jibber jabber back-and-forth about inaccuracies in all these different things everybody has an opinion and they live by their opinions whether a be in science or personal preference People make up their own rules set on how they do things in life whether it be listening to music or movies or anything else. For many years myself I have listened to speakers and value them and along the way my life changed where I wanted to listen to music laded night at a respectable volume so I got in the headphones as well they both have become very valuable to me and I respect how both of them reproduce music for my listening pleasure in the wrong way. I don't knock them any one way as being better or worse they just serve different purposes. Headphones will always be more personal ultimately that is going to be very hard for anybody to disapprove or even argue but speakers will always be able to make a crowd jump and dance even live presentations in a park point is there's not one that's any less valuable than the other in their own right they complete each other specifically from having the personal experience of a headphone to having a party with speakers there's no one wrong or right way to go about it and actually they should not be compared because they really don't perform anything the same way ultimately for their user set there are miles apart. They are pretty much a yin yang to each other.