Headphones v. Speakers

[dalethorn]

Before digital, it wasn't practical to listen to good quality music outside of nighttime (after work) sessions in the room that could house the speakers, and which wouldn't irritate the neighbors. With digital, my freedom to listen has been greatly expanded to include anytime anywhere, with full fidelity.

 

With speakers, 89 percent of the sound is smeared before it reaches the ears due to reflections. With headphones, essentially no smearing occurs unless you have something like the Sennheiser HD800, which does make an effort at "big soundstage" by reflecting and smearing the sound. Adding to the distortions is the need for the vastly larger (than headphones) drivers in speakers that require much greater excursions and damping.

 

With headphones, I have another great freedom besides the above, and that's the freedom to not have to own a house suitable for hi-fi listening without disturbing the neighbors. That saves tons of money, since I have no other use for a house. With headphones, I can hear and feel fundamental bass tones that are beyond the capability of speakers unless the cost is 10 to 50 times greater. The treble extension and clarity of headphones is better due to lack of room reflections and resonances.

 

I've had many Stereophile-recommended speakers and headphones as far back as the late 1970's, and I've learned that the so-called 'reality' that speakers are supposed to represent image-wise over headphones is just a fantasy. The complexity of recording and then re-creating with loudspeakers is compromised 100 different ways. Start with crossovers, time and phase shift, extra interconnects and cables - the list is long.

 

I'm sitting on a dozen sets of headphones now, and switch them occasionally to expand my perspective on various sound qualities, something that was never practical with loudspeakers.

[Moosbrugger]

It seems that those who prefer speakers listen on the loud side to get more of an immersive effect? Do people generally agree with that? I'm in a rather small apartment (well, large by NYC one-bedroom standard). Although my neighbors don't seem to complain, my wife doesn't know why I have to listen so loudly. I try to explain that if the volume is low enough that the loud parts are "normal," I lose the quiet parts completely.

[Paul R]

Well, my wife has the hearing of a bat - of a whole flock of bats I think. She can hear the faint sound of earphones from 4 feet away and will fuss and complain. So when I use headphones, I am usually more than 4ft away from Karen. Like, I go upstairs and hide out.

 

If I want to be around Karen, which is my usual choice, then it is speakers all the way. I keep edging the volume UP, she just as insistently, keeps edging it DOWN.

 

We usually compromise - a little louder than she likes and a little softer than I do. It works, because we get to sit together and can converse, about the music or anything else that strikes our fancy.

 

-Paul

 

 

It seems that those who prefer speakers listen on the loud side to get more of an immersive effect? Do people generally agree with that? I'm in a rather small apartment (well, large by NYC one-bedroom standard). Although my neighbors don't seem to complain, my wife doesn't know why I have to listen so loudly. I try to explain that if the volume is low enough that the loud parts are "normal," I lose the quiet parts completely.

[bdiament]

Hi Moosbrugger,

 

It seems that those who prefer speakers listen on the loud side to get more of an immersive effect? Do people generally agree with that? I'm in a rather small apartment (well, large by NYC one-bedroom standard). Although my neighbors don't seem to complain, my wife doesn't know why I have to listen so loudly. I try to explain that if the volume is low enough that the loud parts are "normal," I lose the quiet parts completely.

 

Not me. I believe it was Peter Walker who once said words to the effect that every recording has one correct playback level. In my experience, he was right. However, I'm not always listening at that level and will often, due to the way most records are made, have the volume turned down a bit from there.

 

I would say that if the volume needs to be advanced to the loud side in order to achieve immersion, there is something amiss with either the hardware or the way it is set up. Of course, not everyone can set their room up with sound as the highest priority... but then the speakers would not be to blame. ;-}

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

The Soundkeeper | Audio, Music, Recording, Playback

Barry Diament Audio

[Andrew_WOT]

With speakers, 89 percent of the sound is smeared before it reaches the ears due to reflections. With headphones, essentially no smearing occurs unless you have something like the Sennheiser HD800, which does make an effort at "big soundstage" by reflecting and smearing the sound.

LOL at HD800 "smearing" sound. I am sure your intent was to say something else as this is closed phones that have problem with soundwave back reflection that "smears" the sound. Reason almost all "flaghips" are open design.

[bdiament]

If 89 percent of the sound from speakers is smeared due to reflections, I would suggest turning the speakers around to face the listening position. ;-}

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

The Soundkeeper | Audio, Music, Recording, Playback

Barry Diament Audio

[astrallite]

Can System.

 

Sennheiser HD 800

Sennheiser HDVD 800

Approx. USD 3.500,- for the system.

 

 

Against

 

 

Speaker System.

 

Steinway Lyngdorf Model S would be a reasonable choice.

One that I would happily make myself.

Approx. USD 25.000,- for the system.

 

Or 7 times as much!

 

You don't need to go 7 times as much, NHT , Revel Ultima2, Dynaudio Confidence, and Raidho among many brands would blow away the HD800s for less than 25 grand.

[Blake]

Dalethorn: Where are you getting this info? 89%? For all speakers and listening rooms? You can't be serious. No consideration for speaker type, room configuration and dimensions, speaker toe-in or lack thereof, listener distance from speakers, etc., etc. Its 89%, precisely and always. Really?

 

Also, imaging with speakers is wrong as compared to headphones? Please explain.

 

And finally, you must spend 10-50 times more for a speaker to get the same bass performance from a headphone? What headphones are you talking about? Which speakers?

 

It is absolutely fine to prefer headphones over speakers. But your data is flawed and I am not sure I agree with your reasoning.

[Kelly]

I always prefer speakers for any of the reasons others have talked about. I think the headphone culture is a bit different tthan the rest of audiophiledom. With speakers you most likely have only one set and build the system towards a reference sound you like, but which works with pretty much all music. It seems like headphone types will have multiple cans for different types of music. In some ways it is refreshing to hear people talk openly about what sounds best and not what is most accurate.

 

I do not buy the notion that headphones are really that much cheaper for the performance they deliver. They obviously present different design challenges and lot more constraints because you have to actually be able to wear them. I use headphones because I can still have music and maintain domestic tranquility.

[DigiPete]

You don't need to go 7 times as much, NHT , Revel Ultima2, Dynaudio Confidence, and Raidho among many brands would blow away the HD800s for less than 25 grand.

 

 

They are all nice speaker,

but nice will not cut it.

You will have to try harder!

 

Revel Ultima2, Dynaudio Confidence, and Raidho Acoustic's D-1 (I expect you meant this?):

- None are full range

- A full rig will run at least USD 25.000, not including bi-amp or DSP

- They may compete (with a supporting sub) but not blow the HD800.

 

 

I have no idea about the NHT except it seems like a lot of bang for the buck for a mere USD 6000,-

Could they be the gold we are looking for.

 

I'll agree to disagree ;-)

[astrallite]

So you are saying what, the $1500 HD800 is more resolving than a diamond or ribbon driver that costs thousands of dollars? Even if used near-field for instance?

[DigiPete]

So you are saying what, the $1500 HD800 is more resolving than a diamond or ribbon driver that costs thousands of dollars?

Even if used near-field for instance?

 

 

. . .

 

Price

Cans offer a way cheaper way into the audiophile experience

Speaker setups easily cost 5-10 times as much to get to the same level of experience.

 

. . .

 

 

I am open for suggestions, but so far none have come close.

And yes, near-field rigs would be less expensive, but would most likely still require a sub, bi/tri-amp and careful DSP to get close.

[Kal Rubinson]

I am open for suggestions, but so far none have come close.

And yes, near-field rigs would be less expensive, but would most likely still require a sub, bi/tri-amp and careful DSP to get close.

But resolution is only one part of music reproduction.

 

The spatial representation of headphones, unless used with true binaural recordings, is impossibly inadequate and inferior to a simple stereo system of similar price!

[Kal Rubinson]

Studies were done a long time ago showing that 89 percent of what you hear with speakers has been reflected one or more times in the room, smearing the sound that's preserved in the recording.

Mebbe if it is a bad room, there is "smearing." However, if you eliminate those reflections, as in an anechoic chamber, the sound is discomforting. The proper reproduction of stereo recordings requires room reflections because they were produced with them in mind.

[Andrew_WOT]

Tyll posted a good article on that very topic a while back

Across the Great Divide: Can We Love Headphones & Speakers Equally?

[dalethorn]

Mebbe if it is a bad room, there is "smearing." However, if you eliminate those reflections, as in an anechoic chamber, the sound is discomforting. The proper reproduction of stereo recordings requires room reflections because they were produced with them in mind.

 

The argument seems similar to using a bass-heavy headphone with bass-heavy music, producing a double-whammy of bass, an argument seen frequently on headphone forums and rarely if ever questioned.

 

In this case, the only way to avoid doubling the reflections in the original recording is by close-up miking, which is falling out of favor with most high-res recordings these days. Even the Mercury Living Presence recordings are being highly touted now, and only simple mic arrangements were used, with most of the instruments distant from the mics.

 

I realize this effect varies a lot between recordings, but to be honest, in most cases you are increasing the reflections and smearing with speakers unless sitting very close.

[dalethorn]

Dalethorn: Where are you getting this info? 89%? For all speakers and listening rooms? You can't be serious. No consideration for speaker type, room configuration and dimensions, speaker toe-in or lack thereof, listener distance from speakers, etc., etc. Its 89%, precisely and always. Really?

 

So what you're saying is that the highly variable amount of reflections in users' rooms coupled with the highly variable miking techniques used in recordings somehow equals a superior experience over headphones? - I'm all ears.

[dalethorn]

If 89 percent of the sound from speakers is smeared due to reflections, I would suggest turning the speakers around to face the listening position.

 

I'm sure you're aware that there is a lot of reflection going on, so to insinuate that there should be none is disingenuous at best. Then we get to room resonances and it gets worse.

[dalethorn]

LOL at HD800 "smearing" sound. I am sure your intent was to say something else as this is closed phones that have problem with soundwave back reflection that "smears" the sound. Reason almost all "flaghips" are open design.

 

I had the HD800 for 3 years, and while it is "open-back", the back and sides of the earcups are not fully transparent.

[dalethorn]

Here's a small AES article that examines some of the issues with rooms, some interesting types of comparison tests, etc.

 

http://xenona.com/xenonaupl/Ivo_Hristev/AES-tutorials/aesTutorial91.pdf

[Blake]

So what you're saying is that the highly variable amount of reflections in users' rooms coupled with the highly variable miking techniques used in recordings somehow equals a superior experience over headphones? - I'm all ears.

 

?????? Please re-read my post. You must be confusing me for someone else.

 

I thought my comment was pretty clear, but somehow you missed it.

 

You wrote the following: "With speakers, 89 percent of the sound is smeared before it reaches the ears due to reflections."

 

You don't qualify that comment in any way. So what you are telling us is that with all speakers (monopole, bipole, dipole, omnipole, etc.), and regardless of the listening room size, shape and configuration, and regardless of the listening position, exactly 89% "of the sound" arriving at the listening position is smeared due to reflections.

 

Please explain- show us the proof.

 

Please stay on point.

 

 

 

[nemick]

I use headphones only when I don't want to disturb others late at night. Otherwise I use speakers whenever possible. I feel headphones have their place, but I need to the whole room experience to fully enjoy music. I'm sure the opposite is just as true and viable for others, so its all a personal choice in my opinion.

[Jud]

Dalethorn: Where are you getting this info? 89%?

 

 

Bose 901 - 8 rear drivers, 1 front driver, almost exactly 89% of the sound (8 of 9 drivers) reflected.

[dalethorn]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]9729[/ATTACH]Bose 901 - 8 rear drivers, 1 front driver, almost exactly 89% of the sound (8 of 9 drivers) reflected.

 

Bose used that concept erroneously as Stereophile described very well in their review circa 1972. But it didn't originate with Bose.

 

BTW, you're once again in denial about reflections.

[dalethorn]

I use headphones only when I don't want to disturb others late at night. Otherwise I use speakers whenever possible. I feel headphones have their place, but I need to the whole room experience to fully enjoy music. I'm sure the opposite is just as true and viable for others, so its all a personal choice in my opinion.

 

Choosing between headphones and speakers is indeed a personal choice, and good fodder for a chat forum, but it doesn't contribute to resolving the controversies as described in the AES article.