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People could just stick with the PCM version that was used to create the vinyl for most vinyl releases today :~)

 

Audiophile labels like Mofi and Analogue Productions take great care to deliver true analog product, whenever possible. I don't think that any serious vinyl lover would invest in a TT converting analog signal to PCM. And I'm not willing to invest in a DAC that converts DSD to PCM either.

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Well, they could still convert the analog signal to PCM afterwards internally. I'm curious how many vinyl fans would like to listen to their analog records on such TT...

 

Hahaha, you would be surprised. At RMAF this year, PS Audio was playing vinyl in their room through their new phono stage. Many, many listeners were remarking on how great the sound was, and how relaxing and wonderful it was to be hearing analog at the show. What they did not know, until they were told later, was that the signal path they were listening to was actually: turntable to PS Phono stage, converting to 24/96 PCM, to PS PerfectWave DAC Mk. II. So the analog was being converted to 24/96 pcm, and then converted back by the DAC, hahahaha! The fact is, that a good ADC-DAC combo will still sound just like the analog source, and it certainly need not be DSD to do so.

SO/ROON/HQPe: DSD 512-Sonore opticalModuleDeluxe-Signature Rendu optical with Well Tempered Clock--DIY DSC-2 DAC with SC Pure Clock--DIY Purifi Amplifier-Focus Audio FS888 speakers-JL E 112 sub-Nordost Tyr USB, DIY EventHorizon AC cables, Iconoclast XLR & speaker cables, Synergistic Purple Fuses, Spacetime system clarifiers.  ISOAcoustics Oreas footers.                                                       

                                                                                           SONORE computer audio

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Do you think the sound of converting DSD to PCM is inferior or you just don't want to convert the file for other reasons?

 

Have you tried converting your PCM to DSD like most DSD albums are created? Does it sound good?

 

I have listened to many SACDs sourced from PCM and none of them sounded as good as true DSD recording. That's why I don't want to convert any DSD material to PCM. I know that there a few software apps that offer DSD to PCM conversion, but I also know from countless user reviews that the quality of this conversion varies, and I don't want to introduce any changes in SQ to DSD file playback.

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I have listened to many SACDs sourced from PCM and none of them sounded as good as true DSD recording. That's why I don't want to convert any DSD material to PCM.

There are so many variables involved that I don't think it's possible to do an apples to apples comparison. Perhaps the engineers, recording halls, recording equipment, software, musicians, playback equipment, etc... have an effect on the sound quality as well :~)

 

Nonetheless, the sound each of us prefers can't be argued.

Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems AudiophileStyleStickerWhite2.0.png AudiophileStyleStickerWhite7.1.4.png

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Hahaha, you would be surprised. At RMAF this year, PS Audio was playing vinyl in their room through their new phono stage. Many, many listeners were remarking on how great the sound was, and how relaxing and wonderful it was to be hearing analog at the show. What they did not know, until they were told later, was that the signal path they were listening to was actually: turntable to PS Phono stage, converting to 24/96 PCM, to PS PerfectWave DAC Mk. II. So the analog was being converted to 24/96 pcm, and then converted back by the DAC, hahahaha! The fact is, that a good ADC-DAC combo will still sound just like the analog source, and it certainly need not be DSD to do so.

 

Yet it is only an option for those who want to rip their analog records to hdd, in 96kHz PCM or 5.6MHz DSD. If you don't need to do it, then you can continue to listen to your analog records without any digital conversions in the chain. If the DSD>PCM conversion were optional I would disable it and wouldn't make a fuss about it. :)

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Yet it is only an option for those who want to rip their analog records to hdd, in 96kHz PCM or 5.6MHz DSD. If you don't need to do it, then you can continue to listen to your analog records without any digital conversions in the chain.

 

The point is that the conversion from analog-digital (PCM)-back to analog, is already so transparent that the listeners thought they were hearing an analog chain all along, so much so that they remarked on how great it sounded to be listening to an analog source. If PCM sounded so "bad" this would not be the case.

Personally I do not bother with vinyl any more, as the sound is compromised, and it is a huge PIA to clean and play records. Yes, they have a nice euphonic sound to them, but that is an artifact, rather than better fidelity.

SO/ROON/HQPe: DSD 512-Sonore opticalModuleDeluxe-Signature Rendu optical with Well Tempered Clock--DIY DSC-2 DAC with SC Pure Clock--DIY Purifi Amplifier-Focus Audio FS888 speakers-JL E 112 sub-Nordost Tyr USB, DIY EventHorizon AC cables, Iconoclast XLR & speaker cables, Synergistic Purple Fuses, Spacetime system clarifiers.  ISOAcoustics Oreas footers.                                                       

                                                                                           SONORE computer audio

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I have listened to many SACDs sourced from PCM and none of them sounded as good as true DSD recording. That's why I don't want to convert any DSD material to PCM. I know that there a few software apps that offer DSD to PCM conversion, but I also know from countless user reviews that the quality of this conversion varies, and I don't want to introduce any changes in SQ to DSD file playback.

 

This may be true on a native DSD capable dac (e.g. playback designs and EMM labs e.a.), but on any other DAC the PCM conversion will sound just as good (or better). Problem is native PCM won't sound as good on such a DAC. So you either get two DACs (one DSD one PCM), or compromise on one format. Given that native DSD represents less than 0.1% of available content this is an easy call.

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This may be true on a native DSD capable dac (e.g. playback designs and EMM labs e.a.),

 

Playback Designs and Emm Labs aren't the only native DSD DACs. Chord Qute HD and EX, Lampizator DSD, and many others support native DSD playback. BTW, Denon has just announced that it will be releasing a new DSD USB DAC in February.

 

Also, when you consider the amount of native DSD recordings, keep in mind that the "native PCM" content is equally small. However, with new DSD stores opening up (superhirez, nativedsd), new double and quad DSD studio equipment being developed things could improve pretty fast, and I hope they will.

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What are the current ADCs if not PCM?

 

They are Delta Sigma converters of various kind (1bit, 5bit, 64fs, 128fs, 256fs).

 

As far as ADCs and DACs go, both pro and consumer markets have been pretty much dominated by the Delta Sigma technology by now.

 

And even the current digital amplifiers make use of PWM - a variation of PDM (not PCM).

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There is an interesting and relevant discussion going on at AudioStream, re. DSD vs PCM. In particular, I found Gordon Rankin's comments on DoP quite interesting. Too much there to summarize, best to read entire thread.

 

Ayre's PCM and DSD Comparison | AudioStream

Main System: [Synology DS216, Rpi-4b LMS (pCP)], Holo Audio Red, Ayre QX-5 Twenty, Ayre KX-5 Twenty, Ayre VX-5 Twenty, Revel Ultima Studio2, Iconoclast speaker cables & interconnects, RealTraps acoustic treatments

Living Room: Sonore ultraRendu, Ayre QB-9DSD, Simaudio MOON 340iX, B&W 802 Diamond

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Maybe I'm reading it wrong but Berkeley Audio Design, whose founders have been involved with creating DAC chips, says, "Multi-bit delta-sigma audio very definitely is PCM".

 

Why it would be called "multi-bit delta-sigma audio" then, if it were "definitely PCM"? Now, that doesn't make any sense. Delta Sigma audio is not PCM audio. See Miska's post #119 for the detailed explanation.

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Why it would be called "multi-bit delta-sigma audio" then, if it were "definitely PCM"? Now, that doesn't make any sense. Delta Sigma audio is not PCM audio. See Miska's post #119 for the detailed explanation.

Much of this is over my head, but I'm willing to believe the guys at Berkeley Audio Design who have actually created the products we are talking about. I also think were are talking semantics here and likely taking things out of context.

 

From Berkeley:

"Further evidence that multi-bit delta-sigma data is PCM is the fact that recovering an audio signal after D/A conversion simply requires a low-pass filter with a flat frequency response in the pass band. If it were delta modulation, as has been claimed, an integrator would be required, which has a 6 dB/octave attenuation slope in the pass band."

Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems AudiophileStyleStickerWhite2.0.png AudiophileStyleStickerWhite7.1.4.png

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Much of this is over my head, but I'm willing to believe the guys at Berkeley Audio Design who have actually created the products we are talking about. I also think were are talking semantics here and likely taking things out of context.

 

Do you think that Miska or Michal Jurewicz (who also realizes that SDM is not PCM) didn't create their products? SDM is not PCM, let's not rewrite the technology texts, shall we?

 

This whole conversation reminds me of futile attempts by some individuals to convince people that DSD is 1bit PCM.

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Do you think that Miska or Michal Jurewicz (who also realizes that SDM is not PCM) didn't create their products? SDM is not PCM, let's not rewrite the technology texts, shall we?

Based on Berkeley's statement, Michal doesn't know what he is talking about. Plus, I know other engineers who refuse to get involved in a discussion with Miska because they think he is arrogant and plain incorrect.

Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems AudiophileStyleStickerWhite2.0.png AudiophileStyleStickerWhite7.1.4.png

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Because multi-bit delta-sigma DAC output stages have equally weighted bits controlled by unary coded sample values, compared to PCM DACs that use binary coded (two's complement) encoding of 2^x weighted bits. (Wolson uses 14 non-equally weighed 1-bit delta-sigma modulated elements and differs in this respect and thus ends up having total of 78 elements)

 

So you can think multi-bit delta-sigma DAC as array of 1-bit DACs. For example Sabre has 64 pieces of 1-bit DACs run in parallel. Multi-level output is constructed from MASH-like structure of cascaded low-order modulators. Then the output is scrambled through the unary thermometer-coding to dynamic element matching where same bit position is every time allocated to different equally weighted output element.

 

Big difference already between SDM and PCM is that SDM typically has odd number of output levels which may be a non-power-of-two number like 25 (dCS). While PCM has always even number of power-of-two output levels.

 

I have also earlier shown in other threads how to use such array of 1-bit DACs to form a linear phase analog filter (that doesn't have any phase distortion) for use with DSD decoding and won't repeat it here.

 

 

Miska, I have no idea what you are talking about, or how it answers Chris's question :(

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Based on Berkeley's statement, Michal doesn't know what he is talking about. Plus, I know other engineers who refuse to get involved in a discussion with Miska because they think he is arrogant and plain incorrect.

 

Michal doesn't know what he's talking about? Miska arrogant?? Michal has like 20 years of experience in pro audio market, Miska is a developer of a successful audio player, with great many features not available from competitors, and has been very helpful to many people on here.

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Also, when you consider the amount of native DSD recordings, keep in mind that the "native PCM" content is equally small.

 

ob·fus·cate (bf-skt, b-fskt)

tr.v. ob·fus·cat·ed, ob·fus·cat·ing, ob·fus·cates

1. To make so confused or opaque as to be difficult to perceive or understand

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Further evidence that multi-bit delta-sigma data is PCM is the fact that recovering an audio signal after D/A conversion simply requires a low-pass filter with a flat frequency response in the pass band. If it were delta modulation, as has been claimed, an integrator would be required, which has a 6 dB/octave attenuation slope in the pass band.

 

Wrong, I have implemented five different any-bit delta-sigma modulators in software. It is not delta modulation, but none of the output samples encode absolute output values.

 

Reconstruction filter, be it for SDM or PCM converter is the integrator. It is as much required for both PCM and SDM. On PCM it is required to cut out images that repeat at multiples of sampling frequency and on SDM it is required to cut out the uncorrelated noise.

 

HQPlayer has various integrators for DSD-to-PCM converter that all have flat pass-band. One of the latest additions called "wec" there is actually kind of software simulation of multi-element DSD DAC. I am now working on hardware D/A implementation of the same.

Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer

Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers

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Based on Berkeley's statement, Michal doesn't know what he is talking about. Plus, I know other engineers who refuse to get involved in a discussion with Miska because they think he is arrogant and plain incorrect.

 

Avoiding discussion is not good for anybody. And just stating that someone is "wrong" without being ready to defend one's position in open debate is not very constructive.

Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer

Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers

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