New Berkeley DAC? This article implies as much but ... ?

[Hiro]

Speaking of downsampling DSD to PCM, I once mentioned a SHARP Delta-Sigma Digital amplifier operating at 5.6MHz here on the forum, and was immediately faced with skepticism of other forum members suggesting that it's probably just marketing and the digital amp in all likelihood downsamples the signal to a much lower speed (+300kHz?) somewhere internally.

 

I'm disappointed that some think it's OK to downsample 2.8MHz~5.6MHz DSD to 174kHz PCM and call it a day. These days, when delta sigma converters constitute the vast majority of the market, and the newer ones are capable of handling DSD at its native rate, there's really a no-no for such a practice.

 

BTW, has anybody seen any TTs on the market that convert the analog signal to PCM because their manufacturers insist that PCM is enough and you won't mind?

[Hiro]

No, but that's probably because it's really hard to find a low compliance cartridge that will play PCM.

 

Well, they could still convert the analog signal to PCM afterwards internally. I'm curious how many vinyl fans would like to listen to their analog records on such TT...

[Hiro]

I thought all those USB turntables did just that? $99 for perfect sound, every time. ($69 on sale on Amazon!)

 

Typical PCM advertising. "24bit" - you won't need anything else. Best TT in the world

[Hiro]

People could just stick with the PCM version that was used to create the vinyl for most vinyl releases today :~)

 

Audiophile labels like Mofi and Analogue Productions take great care to deliver true analog product, whenever possible. I don't think that any serious vinyl lover would invest in a TT converting analog signal to PCM. And I'm not willing to invest in a DAC that converts DSD to PCM either.

[Hiro]

Do you think the sound of converting DSD to PCM is inferior or you just don't want to convert the file for other reasons?

 

Have you tried converting your PCM to DSD like most DSD albums are created? Does it sound good?

 

I have listened to many SACDs sourced from PCM and none of them sounded as good as true DSD recording. That's why I don't want to convert any DSD material to PCM. I know that there a few software apps that offer DSD to PCM conversion, but I also know from countless user reviews that the quality of this conversion varies, and I don't want to introduce any changes in SQ to DSD file playback.

[Hiro]

Hahaha, you would be surprised. At RMAF this year, PS Audio was playing vinyl in their room through their new phono stage. Many, many listeners were remarking on how great the sound was, and how relaxing and wonderful it was to be hearing analog at the show. What they did not know, until they were told later, was that the signal path they were listening to was actually: turntable to PS Phono stage, converting to 24/96 PCM, to PS PerfectWave DAC Mk. II. So the analog was being converted to 24/96 pcm, and then converted back by the DAC, hahahaha! The fact is, that a good ADC-DAC combo will still sound just like the analog source, and it certainly need not be DSD to do so.

 

Yet it is only an option for those who want to rip their analog records to hdd, in 96kHz PCM or 5.6MHz DSD. If you don't need to do it, then you can continue to listen to your analog records without any digital conversions in the chain. If the DSD>PCM conversion were optional I would disable it and wouldn't make a fuss about it.

[Hiro]

This may be true on a native DSD capable dac (e.g. playback designs and EMM labs e.a.),

 

Playback Designs and Emm Labs aren't the only native DSD DACs. Chord Qute HD and EX, Lampizator DSD, and many others support native DSD playback. BTW, Denon has just announced that it will be releasing a new DSD USB DAC in February.

 

Also, when you consider the amount of native DSD recordings, keep in mind that the "native PCM" content is equally small. However, with new DSD stores opening up (superhirez, nativedsd), new double and quad DSD studio equipment being developed things could improve pretty fast, and I hope they will.

[Hiro]

Surely you jest.

 

The last native PCM ADC has been out of manufacture for thirteen years....

[Hiro]

What are the current ADCs if not PCM?

 

They are Delta Sigma converters of various kind (1bit, 5bit, 64fs, 128fs, 256fs).

 

As far as ADCs and DACs go, both pro and consumer markets have been pretty much dominated by the Delta Sigma technology by now.

 

And even the current digital amplifiers make use of PWM - a variation of PDM (not PCM).

[Hiro]

Maybe I'm reading it wrong but Berkeley Audio Design, whose founders have been involved with creating DAC chips, says, "Multi-bit delta-sigma audio very definitely is PCM".

 

Why it would be called "multi-bit delta-sigma audio" then, if it were "definitely PCM"? Now, that doesn't make any sense. Delta Sigma audio is not PCM audio. See Miska's post #119 for the detailed explanation.

[Hiro]

Much of this is over my head, but I'm willing to believe the guys at Berkeley Audio Design who have actually created the products we are talking about. I also think were are talking semantics here and likely taking things out of context.

 

Do you think that Miska or Michal Jurewicz (who also realizes that SDM is not PCM) didn't create their products? SDM is not PCM, let's not rewrite the technology texts, shall we?

 

This whole conversation reminds me of futile attempts by some individuals to convince people that DSD is 1bit PCM.

[Hiro]

Based on Berkeley's statement, Michal doesn't know what he is talking about. Plus, I know other engineers who refuse to get involved in a discussion with Miska because they think he is arrogant and plain incorrect.

 

Michal doesn't know what he's talking about? Miska arrogant?? Michal has like 20 years of experience in pro audio market, Miska is a developer of a successful audio player, with great many features not available from competitors, and has been very helpful to many people on here.

[Hiro]

ob·fus·cate (bf-skt, b-fskt)

tr.v. ob·fus·cat·ed, ob·fus·cat·ing, ob·fus·cates

1. To make so confused or opaque as to be difficult to perceive or understand

 

Example: to suggest that DSD is 1bit PCM, or that Delta Sigma Modulated audio is PCM audio.

[Hiro]

Everything could be much easier if there was a music format which was, say, 5 bits and 2.8 MHz, of course, file size would be pretty large!

 

The output of such a Delta-Sigma modulator would be comparable to quad-speed DSD bandwidth wise.

[Hiro]

Chord?

 

The only DAC from the bunch I could ever afford...

[Hiro]

Will be borrowing this DAC for a demo when it becomes available. Found this to be an interesting read...

 

DXD: PCM at 352.8 and 24-bits?

 

Why are the 24/96 and DXD frequency plots not the same?

 

Shouldn't they be the same in the <48kHz region?

 

The 24/96 plot is distinctly more rugged and different.

[Hiro]

At least the microphones or source signal used for this plot are really limited, seems to be pretty much silence above 25 kHz.

 

But notice how the 24/96 file is all jagged (even below 25kHz), it doesn't look like the DXD original at all.