ATTENTION Current Mac mini/A+ users: Boot Mavericks from an SD card, load a RAMdisk, dismount your internal SATA drives, and pour a drink for the musicians walking out of your speakers!

[elcorso]

The Invicta DAC thread brought up the issue. Gordon believes music streams need to be on a fast pipe, thunderbolt, pcie, sata buses. However on the other hand, I can appreciate the lower noise floor with SD cards and their readers. While not part of your experiment, Compact Flash cards offer industrial durability and a quite a number of motherboards especially the embedded systems over SD cards, so still work as bootable drives.

 

Good to know it! I'm moving to Thunderbolt external drives I guess next week.

 

Roch

[rodaguilera]

Hi,

i tried the SD card boot scheme. But i noticed a strange thing with Amarra Symphony: i have Amarra, Pure Music and Audirvana booted from SD along with the OS (13gb) on a 32GB class 10 card. But every time i tried to change settings on Amarra preference pane, it seems like the software won't update the new settings like for example EQ Bypass: I uncheck and close the preference window and when restart Amarra the box is checked again. This does not happen with my internal HD.

 

Anyone tried this?

 

Regards,

Rodrigo

[Superdad]

Alex C.

Why not reserve judgement on this until you hook up your prototype Linear PSU ?

 

Alex K.

 

Everyday I long for that moment to come!

 

It's possible some judgements might change, yet more likely that the positives on this path will not cancel each other out. Better and better. Yippie!!

[Superdad]

Hi Alex (Superdad),

 

There is something interesting with XXHighEnd: PeterSt added a parameter where one can specify the ramdisk drive letter. When one press "Play", the songs in the playlist are copied from where they physically reside in the ramdrive. So all is done automatically.

 

BTW, I really enjoy this thread (and the other where you mention your experience with different interfaces). Thanks for all the trouble you went through

 

Regards,

 

Alain

 

Hi Alain. That sounds like a great feature. Something to wish for in a future version of A+? Really essential if you are like me and enjoy instant access to your whole music library, not just what you hand picked out and copied to a RAM disk--and then to and A+ playlist. We know Damien has lots of big plans for the player/list experience for 2.0.

[sandyk]

Alex C.

In my experience, when using a good linear PSU, or highly filtered SMPS, it is rare for a track to sound worse to the point it annoys you. It normally just makes the well recorded tracks sound even better.

I will be interested to see your take on this when using squeaky clean, low Z power.

Alex K.

[Superdad]

Yes! Superdad you are spot on in your analysis. I echo that an sd boot w audirvana on the sd card is superior and provides an immediacy to the music that is unique. I do agree that performance does suffer. For those that walk this path expect your performance to be slow but it is absolutely worth it to experiment and try this. I understand the value of a RAM disk but I question if it's worth it. The most significant value here seems to be from dropping the USB interface and unmounting the main drive in the mini. There is more noise than I anticipated caused by these interfaces.

 

It is awesome that you hear the very same thing!

Just think about it.

This change we are making--between A+ running off a RAM disk versus an SD card--is about as far into the thin edge of what would seem an infinitesimally small factor, yet:

 

a) it sonically quite striking--unmistakable even;

b) you, and others hear it the same way;

 

Sure the naysayers would dismiss any statistics of forum posts. But you know what you heard, and I know what I heard, so?…

 

----

Booster, is your music library on the USB interface you unplugged? Also, did you listed to it dismounted only, still plugged in/on, versus unplugged, off at the wall? Even for FW400--the least offensive external interface for us Mac w/USB DAC folk--it helps a bit to have it all unhooked. I have not hooked up a drive via USB since getting into the SD card scene, but I can imagine that the difference in your case would be even more significant.

 

I just looked at your profile to see if you are using a USB DAC. No offense to you or Arcam meant, but now I am more blown away that you are hearing what we have been discussing--on a $500 DAC!

 

Amazing confirmation that not all this tweaking is restricted to mega-performance systems. I honestly am shocked. That's great.

 

 

I didn't quite understand what you meant by "For those that walk this path expect your performance to be slow…" What would be slow? (people?, sound?)

 

Goodnight, AJC

[Booster MPS]

Still on cell phone Alex so this will be short.

 

By slow I only mean speed and performance of apps opening and copying data.

 

Re the drive yes my main library is on a USB 3 drive and files were copied from there to my sd card. The USB drive is unplugged and the smps is unplugged.

 

Re my DAC I suppose I should update my profile. I now have a Benchmark DAC2. Cannot wait to do some listening tomorrow.

[photonblur]

Hello,

 

Pretty exciting stuff. What implications would booting from a sd card and playing

from RAMdisk have on the purchase of a new mac-mini? I get that 16gb of memory

is a plus. Is the solid state drive and quad processor still as beneficial?

 

Thanks-

[Daudio]

Better and better. Yippie!!

 

Alex, I worry about you ! You have had too many "my SQ got lots better" audiophile buzzes, too fast. They are usually quite rare and thus should be savored like a fine wine or cigar, and not gulped down like cheap candy.

 

I also worry that if you continue at this pace you may either run out of them and go into withdrawal, or become so acclimated to the buzz that you will crash, both with serious consequences for your continued enjoyment of the hobby.

 

 

P.S. now I have a post in this thread, so it will be easier to find in 'New Posts' !

[Booster MPS]

Daudio I would suggest you take it around the block for a spin. You don't need to go full on OS on a sd card but just try playing your music from the card and disconnecting any external drives. I found that disconnecting a smps did reveal another layer of benefit. It's worth your time to do some comparisons.

[souptin]

Possibly a bit late to the discussion: An applescript alternative to the various GUIs for making RAMDisks, for anyone who wants to run with it:

 

set DataSizeInMB to 1024
set AppSizeInMB to 512

set NumSectors to ((2 * 1024 * DataSizeInMB))
set DeviceName to do shell script "hdid -nomount ram://" & NumSectors
do shell script "diskutil eraseVolume HFS+ RAMDiskData " & DeviceName

set NumSectors to ((2 * 1024 * AppSizeInMB))
set DeviceName to do shell script "hdid -nomount ram://" & NumSectors
do shell script "diskutil eraseVolume HFS+ RAMDiskApp " & DeviceName

tell application "Finder"
duplicate file "Macintosh HD:Applications:Audirvana Plus.app" to "RAMDiskApp:"
end tell

 

This will create two disks - one called RAMDiskApp, half a gig size, and RAMDiskData, one gig. And as a bonus for the extremely idle, will copy Audirvana Plus onto the RAMDiskApp. Applescript includes commands for unmounting other volumes, stuff like that, so if you have patience with the syntax annoyances of the language it would be possible to automate some other parts of the setup as well.

RAMDisk.scpt.zip

[Dav9]

Has anyone tried a 600x speed/90MB/s card to find out whether they improve the SQ/boot speed in a MM even further and are worth the extra cost over the 22MB/s cards, I am curious to know before choosing one to buy.

[Jud]

It is awesome that you hear the very same thing!

Just think about it.

This change we are making--between A+ running off a RAM disk versus an SD card--is about as far into the thin edge of what would seem an infinitesimally small factor, yet:

 

a) it sonically quite striking--unmistakable even;

b) you, and others hear it the same way;

 

Sure the naysayers would dismiss any statistics of forum posts. But you know what you heard, and I know what I heard, so?…

 

----

Booster, is your music library on the USB interface you unplugged? Also, did you listed to it dismounted only, still plugged in/on, versus unplugged, off at the wall? Even for FW400--the least offensive external interface for us Mac w/USB DAC folk--it helps a bit to have it all unhooked. I have not hooked up a drive via USB since getting into the SD card scene, but I can imagine that the difference in your case would be even more significant.

 

I just looked at your profile to see if you are using a USB DAC. No offense to you or Arcam meant, but now I am more blown away that you are hearing what we have been discussing--on a $500 DAC!

 

Amazing confirmation that not all this tweaking is restricted to mega-performance systems. I honestly am shocked. That's great.

 

 

I didn't quite understand what you meant by "For those that walk this path expect your performance to be slow…" What would be slow? (people?, sound?)

 

Goodnight, AJC

 

Have you got an SSD? Just wondering if there is any difference folks have heard one way or the other from booting off an SD card vs booting off internal SSD. I'm asking as distinct from music files stored on/played from SD card/RAMdisk, and player app on RAMdisk. (BTW - I've always used a different RAMdisk for music files as opposed to player app. Would be curious if there's any audible distinction at all vs. one RAMdisk for both.)

[Jud]

Wondering if moving boot/OS off SD card to SSD might help sonically, while (1) storing music on SD card and (2) playing music files and running app from RAMdisks.

[Booster MPS]

Wondering if moving boot/OS off SD card to SSD might help sonically, while (1) storing music on SD card and (2) playing music files and running app from RAMdisks.

 

I do think there is value to be found in that configuration. As I now notice how slow the Apple OS seems on an SD card i imagine that it would be a very slow boot process. I have yet to reboot my Mini pointing to the SD card.

[Superdad]

I do think there is value to be found in that configuration. As I now notice how slow the Apple OS seems on an SD card i imagine that it would be a very slow boot process. I have yet to reboot my Mini pointing to the SD card.

 

Hi Booster: I don't think that's what Jud meant. I'm the one booting (Mavericks) from an SD card--and I don't find the slowness to be a problem.

Jud is suggesting a number of tests to try with combinations of SSD, SD, RAM disk, and where the OS, A+ app, and music tracks are run from.

I do not yet own an SSD, so I can't try out his suggestions. I think part of the question comes down to if I can tolerate the internal SATA interface running at all. So while maybe SATA running an internal SSD might be more acceptable, I can't afford a big enough one for my music library and running the OS and A+ from the SD sounds very good.

 

While without an SSD on hand I am limited in what I can test, I should compare:

OS booted on SD (music on RAM disk) with internal SATA HD dismounted (my current set up)

versus

The same but leaving the internal SATA mounted.

Perhaps that would in some way simulate keeping the SATA interface talking--enough to gauge its effect.

Lots of permutations possible, yet getting an SSD is the only way to answer some for sure.

 

I am certain that much more will be sonically obvious (or maybe even lessened, though I doubt it) when I finally get to yank the switching PS out of my mini and run with a great linear. So I may cool it on too many more comparisons until then.

 

BTW Jud, in my test above where I said I was not completly happy with A+ running from RAM disk and find it running from the booted OS SD to be fuller and richer, I was indeed running A+ from its own 500GB RAM disk--separate from the 1GB one for the music files.

Actually, the first time you mentioned running A+ from RAM disk I did so with it on the same 1GB RD as the music tracks--but I did not do a comparison of that when I then gave it its own RD. Guess I should. Just tired of burning out my ears and days with the same test music!

[Superdad]

Possibly a bit late to the discussion: An applescript alternative to the various GUIs for making RAMDisks, for anyone who wants to run with it...

 

Thanks Souptin! It will be great for me to use your script as a starting point. When I get more RAM I can adjusted to create larger disks. This sort of thing might even make it into the a future big upgrade of A+--along with hopefully major improvements to Playlist features/functions...

[Daudio]

Daudio I would suggest you take it around the block for a spin. You don't need to go full on OS on a sd card but just try playing your music from the card and disconnecting any external drives. I found that disconnecting a smps did reveal another layer of benefit. It's worth your time to do some comparisons.

 

Can't test any of it right now. My server is a G4 tower. It doesn't have any SD slots and can only run OSX 10.5, which means no A+, among other limitations. I will finally be ordering a Mac Mini this week, a late 2009 for the separate PSU, optical drive and price. It will take a bit for me to get memory upgraded, software setup, etc. before I can attempt anything along the lines of this thread. None-the-less I am following the developments with great interest

[Superdad]

Can't test any of it right now. My server is a G4 tower. It doesn't have any SD slots and can only run OSX 10.5, which means no A+, among other limitations. I will finally be ordering a Mac Mini this week, a late 2009 for the separate PSU, optical drive and price. It will take a bit for me to get memory upgraded, software setup, etc. before I can attempt anything along the lines of this thread. None-the-less I am following the developments with great interest

 

Daudio: For a host of reasons, I really recommend that you consider a mid-2010 2.4GHz Core 2 Duo instead of the late-2009. I own both (along with a pile of G4 minis, an i5, and an i7), and in a carefully controlled 3-way between the 2009, 2010, and 2011 (i5), the 2010 won--even when I gave the 2009 the advantage of the big outboard 10 amp linear I had been running with it. (Sorry, but Nugent at Empirical is misplacing his love with the 2009.) Additionally, the 2009 does not have an SD slot, and I personally find it harder to work on than the thin minis.

The 2010 and newer ones run cooler and quieter, and require just 12V. Extracting the power supply from them is not hard (I can send you videos), and very soon I will be producing a board to make adding a DC barrel jack quite simple (the board has at one end the SPOX connector for the existing internal PS cable to attached to, and jacks that fit into the empty oval hole left by the removal of the stock PS at the other end).

There are other reasons for my preference (sonics), but also I have had a lot of problems over the years with the optical drive of the 2008-2009 minis. My 2010 has been ripping quickly and quietly for some time now.

 

I know you said price is a factor, but I bet you could find a 2010 for pretty close to the price of the late-2009.

 

Anyway, just my 2 cents…

 

Too bad we can't get squat in $ for our G4 machines. Aside from the little pile of G4 minis, I too have a tower gathering a lot of dust out in the garage--along with a couple of originally very expensive, very heavy, NEC CRT monitors. Can't give this stuff away--I've tried! But it has always been this way with computers, no?

 

Best of luck.

--Alex

[Jud]

Just strikes me that putting somewhat artificial resource limitations on the OS by running it from a relatively slow SD card interface might be counterproductive sonically vs. running it from the much faster SATA interface. (Thinking of speed of communication between player app and OS also.)

 

A spinning drive might give back some of this advantage in electrical noise and vibration; perhaps an SSD would do better in this respect.

[Superdad]

Good to know it! I'm moving to Thunderbolt external drives I guess next week.

Roch

 

Hi Roch. I've been meaning to ask you a few questions regarding your Thunderbolt plans:

1) What brand of enclosures are you getting?

2) Will they be bus powered or have their own power supplies?

3) Will the enclosures have ports besides the Thunderbolt and/or did you find any that are exclusively Thunderbolt?

4) Are you putting spinning HDs in them or SSD? (What brand/model of either?)

 

I am somewhat interested in Thunderbolt, not because of their speed (which my personal experience leads me to believe is not that relevant to SQ), but because Thundebolt-equiped Macs have a dedicated controller for it which:

a) allows one to avoid use of the FW, USB, and SATA buses--each of which demonstrably do have a negative effect;

b) might offer some isolation/blockage of nasties that the disk or SSDs in the enclosures might generate on their SATA interfaces and chips.

 

While my 2010 Mac mini music server does not have a Thunderbolt port, my desktop 2012 i7 does. I have been thinking that with the evolution of A+ this year, Mavericks, the SD card and RAM disk things, plus a better USB cable and further improvements inside my DAC, it might be time to revisit my preference for the 2010 mini (which was based on a 3-way shootout I did last year versus late-2009 and an i5 2011 mini). Certainly will be easy to do now with my whole tweaked boot OS being on an SD card.

 

If Thunderbolt proves to be a really good sounding alternative for external high capacity music storage (versus FireWire400--the best sounding large thing I have now), then I would prefer to know this before I permanently pull the PS (and maybe some other junk) out of my 2010. So I could order a TBolt drive to try with my i7. If it does not beat my FW400 sonically, then no harm, I'll use it on my desk. If it does, then I might give the 2010 unit to my wife (and do another round of musical computer upgrades with the kids), and get a newer (2011 or 2012) unit with Thunderbolt for the music system. (Have to first be sure that i5/i7 units sound as good as my 2010 Core2 Duo--see above.) Would miss the optical of the 2010 for ripping, but could plug an external in somewhere. Wish they made Thunderbolt optical drives to add to the chain with the HD.

 

Thanks and regards,

ALEX C.

[Superdad]

Just strikes me that putting somewhat artificial resource limitations on the OS by running it from a relatively slow SD card interface might be counterproductive sonically vs. running it from the much faster SATA interface. (Thinking of speed of communication between player app and OS also.)

 

A spinning drive might give back some of this advantage in electrical noise and vibration; perhaps an SSD would do better in this respect.

 

Good points for sure! I just have to get my business moving better (too much time on testing and CA forum!), and also get through the holidays with kids without breaking the bank! So for now I look to others to test and report what they hear with internal SSD boot versus SD card.

[Booster MPS]

Good points for sure! I just have to get my business moving better (too much time on testing and CA forum!), and also get through the holidays with kids without breaking the bank! So for now I look to others to test and report what they hear with internal SSD boot versus SD card.

 

Just catching up on this thread.

 

Sorry for missing the original question posed by Jud. Now I understand. Unfortunately no, I do not have an SSD in my Mini. My Mini is from I think the late 2012 Mini update by Apple and it was purchased in early 2013. It has the 2.5 GHz processor with the 500 Gb drive. No optical drive in this one - I use an Apple superdrive via USB when I need to rip.

 

I totally agree with both of your concerns re: booting to and SD card and the speed of the OS running from the card. Yesterday it was painfully slow opening programs and moving files around with the OS on the SD card. I have to admit that although there is a sonic benefit it does take away a lot of the benefits of computer audio to run in such a manual environment. I would agree that from what I know at this point that running from an SSD on the Mini should sound superior to a SATA interface and also give you back the performance, features and speed that you would expect from a CA system.

 

I don't think that I can live long term with my computer in this configuration. What I do think I can live with is booting from my hard drive, loading a few SD cards with my preferred music off of my USB 3 drive, and listening to A+ fetching this music from and SD card with my USB 3 drive disconnected.

 

George

[Superdad]

I would agree that from what I know at this point that running from an SSD on the Mini should sound superior to a SATA interface and also give you back the performance, features and speed that you would expect from a CA system.

 

Hi George: Of course we each should run with whatever works and is not too inconvenient. I too wrestle with the dilemma of a large music library and the hassles of copying to RAM disk, etc.

 

Much of what is being discussed in this thread is about experimenting and sorting out the limits of what configurations yield the ultimate sound--and then examining those factors to learn and find a workable approach.

 

Just to be clear, SSD units are all (to my knowledge) sold with SATA interfaces. That interface is fast and plugs right into where internal (and external) hard drives have been. So if you add an SSD in a mini, you are still running the SATA interface. Hence my reply earlier--and my admission about lacking an SSD myself--that this remains to be compared.

 

This also ties into my interest and questions to Roch (elcorso) about Thunderbolt. If the Thunderbolt interface of current Macs is electrically/processor interrupt quieter than the internal SATA bus, then an external Thunderbolt drive would certainly be fast enough for booting--and sizable enough for music storage. Yes, the drives themselves (SSD or HD) which get installed in a Thunderbolt enclosure will still be SATA drives, but going back to my other research thread I think the issue is also about the interface to the computer--and maybe Thunderbolt will isolate whatever effects from the SATA drive.

[Yucca06]

Tried this with my Mini :

files on sd card (sandisk extreme, so good speed)

files on a ramdisk

files directly on my internal SSD

files on my external 2,5" HD, connected with thunderbolt.

 

My Mini is a modified version, with all audio outputs galvanically isolated, and also with an external linear PSU (model from DB system, France, near me...)

 

Player : Audirvana+, files were AIFF. Goldfrapp/Jan Garbarek/Stina Nordenstam/Brant Bjork (mixed very good and bad recordings).

 

Results : absolutely NO differences at all. Nothing, nada, rien, zit. 0

 

 

I think if you can hear something different, you must have a noisy computer, with a noisy HD inside.

Put an SSD in your Mini, add at least an external PSU (linear) and you're done...