ATTENTION Current Mac mini/A+ users: Boot Mavericks from an SD card, load a RAMdisk, dismount your internal SATA drives, and pour a drink for the musicians walking out of your speakers!

[Jud]

 

Once you get a 32GB SDHC card (I bought this one for $21: Amazon.com: Transcend 32 GB Class 10 SDHC Flash Memory Card (TS32GSDHC10E): Electronics ; it's Class 10 so about 22MB/sec in the mini)

 

The "sweet spot" currently in terms of $ per GB at class 10 or greater speeds seems to be 128GB. You can find cards going for 50 cents a GB or less at that size. But not everyone may want to dive in at $60+ for one card or over $120 for two. And some people with larger collections may want to wait until the price comes down to where a larger fraction of their music can be housed on an affordable card. Right now, at least from what I've seen, 256GB cards seem to be considered a little on the exotic end of the market and therefore more expensive.

[Superdad]

The "sweet spot" currently in terms of $ per GB at class 10 or greater speeds seems to be 128GB. You can find cards going for 50 cents a GB or less at that size.

 

Jud, why buy a big SD card at all? If one is playing from RAM disk the SD card just needs to be big enough for a clean install of the OS (and a copy of A+ to drag over to the RAM disk too). I cloned my Mavericks internal partition to the SD, and even with all my little sound utilities and the 20 .dmgs of older A+ versions, I still have more than half of the 32GB SD card free.

 

I intend to spend my money on more RAM. Too bad I can't get a mini to accept 32GB of RAM. That would make for a roomy RAM disk!

[Jud]

Jud, why buy a big SD card at all? If one is playing from RAM disk the SD card just needs to be big enough for a clean install of the OS (and a copy of A+ to drag over to the RAM disk too). I cloned my Mavericks internal partition to the SD, and even with all my little sound utilities and the 20 .dmgs of older A+ versions, I still have more than half of the 32GB SD card free.

 

I intend to spend my money on more RAM. Too bad I can't get a mini to accept 32GB of RAM. That would make for a roomy RAM disk!

 

Because I would like to have a relatively permanent home, that isn't an external HDD, for a sizable fraction of my music collection. This eliminates at least one connection that might inject noise into the system.

[Booster MPS]

SuperDad - thanks so much for the expansive and detailed reply. I think with the information that you provided I have what I need to make a go of this with no show stoppers. Like you I only have 8 GB of RAM and will probably go with a larger SD card to have some more perm storage for music like Jud. Run the OS on the SD and A+ RAM Disk. Thanks again.

[Esprit]

there's no visual feedback on the progress of the next track in the queue.

I have also a green(?) bar indicating the next tracks in RAM

[PhilipAC]

Hi everyone

 

I use a MB Pro with a 512Gb SSD and A+, together with a WD 3Tb external HD storing my music. I have just tried loading a file onto an SD card and playing A+ Playlist mode from the SD card- and it definitely sounds better!!

 

But why? I use Memory Play, so the file is uploaded onto the MBP RAM before playing. But the fact that it is uploaded from an SD card rather than an external hard drive clearly matters!

 

Thanks Superdad for pointing this out, even if I don't understand it. I may now have to buy about 25 128Gb SD cards!!!

 

Cheers

 

Philip

[Freann]

The reason is you are disconnecting external noice generators (HDD circuits, power supplies etc).

 

Using SD-cards for my music is too extreme for my taste. Booting from one is doable. But I’d like to use a HDD via ethernet. I’m thinking NAS with analogue power supply + Acoustic Revive LAN-filter.

[PhilipAC]

Forgive my ignorance, but why would an EHD connected to my MBP via ethernet sound better than my EHD connected via FW?

[Booster MPS]

Hi everyone

 

I use a MB Pro with a 512Gb SSD and A+, together with a WD 3Tb external HD storing my music. I have just tried loading a file onto an SD card and playing A+ Playlist mode from the SD card- and it definitely sounds better!!

 

But why? I use Memory Play, so the file is uploaded onto the MBP RAM before playing. But the fact that it is uploaded from an SD card rather than an external hard drive clearly matters!

 

Philip

 

I attribute the benefits to removing the usb cable which carries noise from the SMPS powering the drive.

[Freann]

Test 1: music on CF card via usb-driven card reader (using a USB dac). Ok, I get it. Clearly better.

 

 

Test 2: Copy music to internal drive, unmount USB HD. Ok, that also better.

 

 

Can I fit a 2TB drive (15mm) in my 2008 Mac Mini Server? Probably not.

Better buy an external firewire port driven 2.5” drive (Western Digital My Passport Studio V4 2TB)?

[sandyk]

It seems highly likely that an internal SSD powered by a higher quality/ improved PSU will give similar results. Use it with a SATA 3 6GBs screened cable that is no longer than necessary.

 

Alex

[Superdad]

The reason is you are disconnecting external noice generators (HDD circuits, power supplies etc).

 

Using SD-cards for my music is too extreme for my taste. Booting from one is doable. But I’d like to use a HDD via ethernet. I’m thinking NAS with analogue power supply + Acoustic Revive LAN-filter.

 

That should word out nicely.

[Superdad]

Forgive my ignorance, but why would an EHD connected to my MBP via ethernet sound better than my EHD connected via FW?

 

I think because the FW interface somehow allows in noise on the power supply ground plane and also requires the computer to run more on the FW interface chip and divert attention as well. This is my layman (me) conjecture based of what I am hearing and what my engineering partner is tell me. His ideas are more complicated and he has isolated a lot of this to the pollution of the ground plane caused by all the CMOS switching that goes on throughout the chain.

[elcorso]

It seems highly likely that an internal SSD powered by a higher quality/ improved PSU will give similar results. Use it with a SATA 3 6GBs screened cable that is no longer than necessary.

 

Alex

 

Hi Alex,

 

There are another matters tan could affect the SQ of the same sound track from where it’s stored.

 

Following is the possible storage three. The album is “Five Songbirds”, and from my Mac Mini late 2012, Audirvana Plus memory player (in order to avoid confusions I didn't linked to RAM Memory all the threes).

 

 

Album stored in iTunes in an external FireWire Hard Disk:

 

Main Bus/FireWire Bus/External HD/Users/Music/iTunes/iTunes Music/Compilations/“Five Songbirds”

 

 

Album stored in an SDXC Card in the SDXC Card Reader:

 

Main Bus/Sd Card Reader/64GB HDXC Card/“Five Songbirds”

 

 

Album stored in the internal Sata 3 SS Hard Disk:

 

Main Bust/Sata Bus/128GB SSHD/“Five Songbirds”

 

 

Album stored in an RAM Disc in the RAM Memory Banks:

 

Main Bus/8gB Memory Bank 1 + 8gB Memory Bank 2/RAMDisk/“Five Songbirds”

 

 

Mac HFS+ is the Hard Disk file structure used by Apple. Less prone to fragmentation than other file structures, but possible, mainly if Hard Disk is close to full.

 

SDXC Cards, RAM Memory & RAM Disks could get fragmentation also. In the case of RAM Memory you have to 'restart' the PC in order to get it unfragmented. SDXC Cards & RAM Disks it's better to format it gain. Regarding external Hard Drives or, the internal SSD one, the only way is to achieve only 50% of their capacity (in Macs), I don't know in Windows. There are defragment apps. but use it at you own risk, it's not recommended to unfragment and SSD.

 

Kind regards,

 

Roch

 

PS/ When I was beginning to post in CA, several year ago, I was almost lynched because I mentioned something about folder and sub-folders structure in iTunes affecting the SQ... Then I will not participate anymore in such discussions, then the listening proof is in every listener hands!

[Superdad]

I attribute the benefits to removing the usb cable which carries noise from the SMPS powering the drive.

 

Well, if he is in fact using a USB-connected external drive than that alone is cause of "confusion" in the sound when using a USB DAC. As I have said before, any time I use a USB source for the music files--even a thumb drive--I hear the same "jumbling" as the computer is using the USB to talk to both the DAC and file source at the same time.

 

I hear most of the benefit playing from SD card or RAM disk even if the hard drive (in my case a FW400) is still attached and powered on. Disconnecting it and unplugging its power supply from the wall helps a little too, but not nearly as much as simple not using it as the source.

[sandyk]

don't know in Windows. There are defragment apps. but use it at you own risk, it's not recommended to unfragment and SSD.

Hi Roch

Windows 8 does auto defragging. I take your point about risks of defragging an SSD, but for just saving favourite tracks, without chopping and changing, it should be fine ?

Kind Regards

Alex

 

P.S.

I can defrag System RAM using Ashampoo Win Optimiser without restarting the PC.

 

 

[As I have said before, any time I use a USB source for the music files--even a thumb drive--I hear the same "jumbling" as the computer is using the USB to talk to both the DAC and file source at the same time. - Alex C.

Agreed. Gordon Rankin also suggests not to use 2 USB processes at the same time.

That's not a problem for me as I use Coax SPDIF from an Asus Xonar D2X to the DAC.

[Superdad]

Hi Alex,

 

There are another matters tan could affect the SQ of the same sound track from where it’s stored.

 

Following is the possible storage three. The album is “Five Songbirds”, and from my Mac Mini late 2012, Audirvana Plus memory player (in order to avoid confusions I didn't linked to RAM Memory all the threes).

 

 

Album stored in iTunes in an external FireWire Hard Disk:

 

Main Bus/FireWire Bus/External HD/Users/Music/iTunes/iTunes Music/Compilations/“Five Songbirds”

 

 

Album stored in an SDXC Card in the SDXC Card Reader:

 

Main Bus/Sd Card Reader/64GB HDXC Card/“Five Songbirds”

 

 

Album stored in the internal Sata 3 SS Hard Disk:

 

Main Bust/Sata Bus/128GB SSHD/“Five Songbirds”

 

 

Album stored in an RAM Disc in the RAM Memory Banks:

 

Main Bus/8gB Memory Bank 1 + 8gB Memory Bank 2/RAMDisk/“Five Songbirds”

 

 

Mac HFS+ is the Hard Disk file structure used by Apple. Less prone to fragmentation than other file structures, but possible, mainly if Hard Disk is close to full.

 

SDXC Cards, RAM Memory & RAM Disks could get fragmentation also. In the case of RAM Memory you have to 'restart' the PC in order to get it unfragmented. SDXC Cards & RAM Disks it's better to format it gain. Regarding external Hard Drives or, the internal SSD one, the only way is to achieve only 50% of their capacity (in Macs), I don't know in Windows. There are defragment apps. but use it at you own risk, it's not recommended to unfragment and SSD.

 

Kind regards,

 

Roch

 

Hi Roch:

 

I am interested and trying to follow what you are saying. Are you implying that the reason RAM disk sounds so good is that the files are not stored a few folder layers down? Based on what I have heard in my system I am skeptical of that since in my tests between storage locations I have--for ease of access with A+ playlists--been in every case putting my 6 test tracks in the root directory of the "test medium." And my results are still clear. I am convinced it has to do with processing and noise.

 

As far as defragmenting RAM disks, why would one need to restart the computer? Just ejecting (dismounting) a RAM disk makes it disappear; and I can create a brand new one. No rebooting required.

 

There is one are I am a little worried about: Since I now boot and run the OS only from my 32GB SD card, and since I know that OS X and all UNIX-based OSs do a lot of constant background maintenance reading/writing even if the machine is not used for anything other that music playback (with music data stored elsewhere), will tyne SD card have a limited life-span? I don't think that these simplistic devices (SD cards) are maintained by the sort of methods which are now part of SSD drive-life preservation.

[One and a half]

Some words from Gordon Rankin about SD cards and the slowness of them.

[Superdad]

Hi everyone:

 

The other day Jud mentioned running A+ itself from a RAM disk, and I thought cool, this should be a logical extension of what I have been hearing as I moved to ever "quieter"/"simpler" music transport interfaces. So I did that the same night, gave it a quick listen with a couple of my test suite tracks, and indeed it sounded great. But I did not go back to running A+ from the SD card (that's my boot OS, all internal SATA and externals dismounted) until this morning. What prompted me do so was that last night I was cursing through my music library for pleasure, dragging in a few tracks at a time to the RAM disk and playing them from that.

 

What happened was that a lot of beloved music--including some tunes that used to sound great--the sound seemed shrill and rather bass-light. Most of it I attributed to the greater accuracy that the RAM or SD playback has been bringing. The main positive attribute of that seems to be a much more unified wave front where the harmonics of the note are better integrated with the initial attack. This allows the instruments to sound more explicitly like what they are (instantaneous transient attack; inner tones of brass, piano, drums; and acoustics that are more natural).

 

Admittedly, the tunes where I was experiencing disappointment were older recordings. Some newer, independent recordings (Ardrew Bird comes to mind from last night) were fine and there was plenty of bass--when it is there in the recording. But some formerly VERY dynamic-sounding tracks (like the crazy King Crimson "Easy Money" from Larks' Tongues in Aspic) just did not have the impact, excitement, and room filling presence that I was used to.

 

So I figured I'd chalk it up to the usual greater accuracy revealing the limitations of recordings. After all, the best tracks sounded amazing, there was lots in between, and each recording has a different character--always a benchmark for it the system is moving forward or backward. And playing the tracks from the hard disk (instead of from RAM) would probably bring back some "fullness" and "lushness"--along with being more convenient. (Maybe I'd use the RAM disk just for the best/reference tracks). I tried the hard drive layback, and while it helped, it lost the elements of RAM disk playback I had been getting spoiled with.

 

What could it be? Well, I had not done a proper A/B between running A+ from the SD card versus running it from the (admittedly small 500MB) RAM disk. Of course it is VERY quick to quit and relaunch A+ from the SD card or RAM disk. Bingo!! For me, the sound is decidedly more lush and "organic" with A+ running from the SD card than from the RAM disk. Notes and space fills in much more richly, and I don't feel nearly as edgy while listening to the great middle of my large library. Again, the tracks themselves are still loaded into and played from the RAM disk; it's just A+ that is running from the SD card (along with the OS).

 

Is it more accurate? Probably not for the very best tracks. But it is more listenable. I am wondering if the problem might be that running A+ from a small (500MB) RAM disk partition is somehow too restrictive. I know that apps need "scratch disk" space as they operate, and while I always assumed that the boot drive is where they "scratch", I have never before run app from other than the boot drive. Of course A+ probably becomes 100% RAM resident when running… So I just don't know. Clearly I am grasping at straws to explain what I have no trouble hearing.

 

I am probably operating at the limits, not just of my knowledge (duh!), but of what flexibility and customization is offered by Audrivana Plus and OS X. I understand that folks that play with the advance functions and settings of PeterSt.'s XXHighEnd--on well endowed and tweaked Windows machines--are able to adjust a lot of parameters relating to memory play and RAM disks.

 

Maybe a few of you will experiment with A+ from RAM disk versus SD card (assuming you are booting from the SD card) and let me know your results. Be sure to check out some less than perfect tracks as well.

 

Thanks for reading. Regards,

Alex C.

[Superdad]

Some words from Gordon Rankin about SD cards and the slowness of them.

 

That's nice, but in my experiments, the noise and crap from SATA, FW, or USB are far more of sonic issue. Besides, my "slowpoke" SD card is stall transferring at 22MB/sec. That's faster than a lot of external USB attached drives. Plus if you look at the spec and interface, SD card slots (of course just those built onto motherboards) have an extremely simple, quiet, almost RAM-like interface. And I am convinced that is the root of the matter.

[sandyk]

That's nice, but in my experiments, the noise and crap from SATA, FW, or USB are far more of sonic issue.

 

Alex C.

Why not reserve judgement on this until you hook up your prototype Linear PSU ?

 

Alex K.

[elcorso]

Hi Roch:

 

I am interested and trying to follow what you are saying. Are you implying that the reason RAM disk sounds so good is that the files are not stored a few folder layers down? Based on what I have heard in my system I am skeptical of that since in my tests between storage locations I have--for ease of access with A+ playlists--been in every case putting my 6 test tracks in the root directory of the "test medium." And my results are still clear. I am convinced it has to do with processing and noise.

 

As far as defragmenting RAM disks, why would one need to restart the computer? Just ejecting (dismounting) a RAM disk makes it disappear; and I can create a brand new one. No rebooting required.

 

There is one are I am a little worried about: Since I now boot and run the OS only from my 32GB SD card, and since I know that OS X and all UNIX-based OSs do a lot of constant background maintenance reading/writing even if the machine is not used for anything other that music playback (with music data stored elsewhere), will tyne SD card have a limited life-span? I don't think that these simplistic devices (SD cards) are maintained by the sort of methods which are now part of SSD drive-life preservation.

 

Hi Alex C.,

 

What I said is "In the case of RAM Memory you have to 'restart' the PC in order to get it unfragmented." RAM disks, it's easy to build a new one. But also, RAM disks are built as a part of the RAM memory. Anyway, since A+ is a memory player when I don't like the SQ I get, I restart the Mac. Is so fast under an SSD.

 

Regarding listening tracks in the root directory is what I'm telling you, this observation was shared with Cookie Marenco also (pardon me Cookie to mention you).

 

Please remember we are in very different Minis, from PSU to RAM & SSD. But I don't want to talk about this, since somebody joked about 'audiophile RAM', if this guy knew where the recommendation comes, close its mouth.

 

Of course everything comes from processing and noise, then, from more processing with the resulting noise, like file three ubication structure. But this only my theory...

 

Roch

[AlainGr]

Hi Alex (Superdad),

 

There is something interesting with XXHighEnd: PeterSt added a parameter where one can specify the ramdisk drive letter. When one press "Play", the songs in the playlist are copied from where they physically reside in the ramdrive. So all is done automatically.

 

BTW, I really enjoy this thread (and the other where you mention your experience with different interfaces). Thanks for all the trouble you went through

 

Regards,

 

Alain

[Booster MPS]

I am sitting at a dinner catching up on this thread but completely captivated by what I heard earlier. I will be social again in a moment.

 

Yes! Superdad you are spot on in your analysis. I echo that an sd boot w audirvana on the sd card is superior and provides an immediacy to the music that is unique. I do agree that performance does suffer. For those that walk this path expect your performance to be slow but it is absolutely worth it to experiment and try this. I understand the value of a RAM disk but I question if it's worth it. The most significant value here seems to be from dropping the USB interface and unmounting the main drive in the mini. There is more noise than I anticipated caused by these interfaces.

[One and a half]

That's nice, but in my experiments, the noise and crap from SATA, FW, or USB are far more of sonic issue. Besides, my "slowpoke" SD card is stall transferring at 22MB/sec. That's faster than a lot of external USB attached drives. Plus if you look at the spec and interface, SD card slots (of course just those built onto motherboards) have an extremely simple, quiet, almost RAM-like interface. And I am convinced that is the root of the matter.

 

The Invicta DAC thread brought up the issue. Gordon believes music streams need to be on a fast pipe, thunderbolt, pcie, sata buses. However on the other hand, I can appreciate the lower noise floor with SD cards and their readers. While not part of your experiment, Compact Flash cards offer industrial durability and a quite a number of motherboards especially the embedded systems over SD cards, so still work as bootable drives.