ATTENTION Current Mac mini/A+ users: Boot Mavericks from an SD card, load a RAMdisk, dismount your internal SATA drives, and pour a drink for the musicians walking out of your speakers!

[Jud]

Tried this with my Mini :

files on sd card (sandisk extreme, so good speed)

files on a ramdisk

files directly on my internal SSD

files on my external 2,5" HD, connected with thunderbolt.

 

My Mini is a modified version, with all audio outputs galvanically isolated, and also with an external linear PSU (model from DB system, France, near me...)

 

Player : Audirvana+, files were AIFF. Goldfrapp/Jan Garbarek/Stina Nordenstam/Brant Bjork (mixed very good and bad recordings).

 

Results : absolutely NO differences at all. Nothing, nada, rien, zit. 0

 

 

I think if you can hear something different, you must have a noisy computer, with a noisy HD inside.

Put an SSD in your Mini, add at least an external PSU (linear) and you're done...

 

Got an SSD in a MacBook Pro running on internal battery, thought I could hear a difference between music on SD card and music on FW HDD. In fact, thought I could hear a difference between music on SD card with FW HDD connected to MacBook Pro and music on SD card with FW HDD disconnected from MacBook Pro. FW HDD is plugged into SMPS.

 

Is your Thunderbolt drive plugged into an SMPS or a linear supply?

[Yucca06]

Thunderbolt drive powered through the Mini (thunderbolt bus), and Mini powered through external linear PSU.

 

But galvanic isolation of all outputs is may be also a reason...

[Superdad]

Thunderbolt drive powered through the Mini (thunderbolt bus), and Mini powered through external linear PSU.

 

But galvanic isolation of all outputs is may be also a reason...

 

 

Hello Yucca:

 

I looked at the DB System web site. Fascinating things they are into. I only get a sense from the pictures and some phrases, since I do not read French. It looks from the page showing the Mac mini modification (MacMini modifications db) that they bring out the left/right analog from the computer's own DAC chip, and also make an S/PDIF signal (from before the Toslink optical encoder perhaps?). Is this correct and is the S/PDIF what you attach to your Mytek DAC?

 

Also from on the DB System web site: Please explain what is Zardoz? (Besides being the title of a weird 1974 Sean Connery sci-fi movie.)

 

Merci.

[Yucca06]

DB is Dan Bellity, the owner.

He makes totally customizable stuff (if you have the money for...). The usual outputs he adds for the Mini are spdif and rca. AES and bnc can be done also I believe.

I don't have the Mytek anymore (I use now an "old" Meridian 568 pre/processor), but I used to connect the Mini to the Mytek through FW, spdif or usb (the 3 were very good, but I could only get integer mode with usb1 with the Mytek)

 

Zardoz/La Rosita products are wifi streamers, based on the airport from Apple, but with lots of modifications. I believe it's his best buy, with a very smooth natural/analog sound. But I personnaly prefer using his Mini, as it's the center of my Audio/video system (and I use it as my computer also...)

 

You can call him, or mail him questions, as he speaks english very well I believe. He's quite know in Germany with his "La Rosita" brand, and can tweak everything you want. But it's not on the cheap side...

[tranz]

Curious now.

 

I use an SSD for OS, physically removed from the MacMini through an extension cable and SOTM SATA filter.

 

Music is on a TBolt external drive.

 

Both Mac and TBolt are powered by 2 separate linear PSUs going into filtered (soon to also be balanced) power.

 

Vibrapods underneath all to limit any vibration.

 

Physical distance between Tbolt and Mac and LPSUs to limit magnetic interference.

 

The one thing I have not been able to find out how to do is power the SSD through a LPSU like the CAPS pc.

 

Guess the OS on a card would be an option to try!

 

But will it be better than an externally powered SSD since the card will still draw power from the mobo

 

Cheers

[Superdad]

I use an SSD for OS, physically removed from the MacMini through an extension cable and SOTM SATA filter.

 

Please tell more about how you accomplish that! Where do you get an extension cable for the SATA? I assume that it plugs into where the internal drive usually goes, and you leave the mini's internal cables/connectors in place?

And then do you have the SotM filter and SSD in an custom or standard enclosure?

Pictures perhaps?

 

Thanks!

[sandyk]

Alex C.

Ideally, you should have an eSata port to do this, and use a shielded eSata to SATA cable if the external unit requires SATA.

The SOtM SATA filter is only a relatively simple C-L-C type filter, which IMO, ideally should have much larger value electros at the output, but these are unavailable in SMD. My own experience with CLC filters is that unless you use at least 4,700uF at the output of the filter, it will cause a small apparent increase in HF detail, which may sound fatiguing with longer listening sessions. This was also my experience with such a filter in line with my internal LG BR writer, and has been confirmed by others.

Regards

Alex K.

 

P.S.

I will not respond to demands for proof from the usual suspects.

[Superdad]

Alex K.:

Thanks, but what I was asking Tranz was about his hook-up in and routing out of a SATA data/power extension cable with the Mac mini. In the minis there is a very thin, flat cable that attaches delicately to the motherboard, and the other end is a sort of connector/board that plugs onto the SATA drive device. See: Mac Mini Mid 2010 Hard Drive Cable Replacement - iFixit

 

So there is no eSATA port on any Macs, though I have a couple of OWC external drive enclosures with eSATA port slots. I see now that the SOtM filter is just on the power legs--correct? If that is the car then, yes, I can devise other ways of getting clean power to an external SATA device.

But first I want to learn how Tranz is attaching an external SATA to a Mac mini!

[sandyk]

Alex C.

What I was suggesting here is that it may not be a good idea to extend a SATA cable outside the PC unless it is screened, as ESata to Sata cables are. I got a small improvement simply from replacing a longer generic internal Sata cable with a shorter Sata3 6GB/s cable which has 2 separate screened cables in it's construction. I don't have an eSata port in my Windows PC either, although some motherboards have them.

The SOtM SATA filter is just for the power side.

Regards

Alex K.

[Superdad]

Alex K.:

That's fine, I'm happy to use a shielded SATA to eSATA cable (since one of my HD enclosures has eSATA), but did you look at the picture inside the mini that I linked to? I want Tranz to tell me how he hooked up the data and power cables to that inside the machine to then route them outside.

Best,

Alex C.

[sandyk]

I had a quick look. You are both braver men than I am !

[elcorso]

Hi Roch. I've been meaning to ask you a few questions regarding your Thunderbolt plans:

1) What brand of enclosures are you getting?

2) Will they be bus powered or have their own power supplies?

3) Will the enclosures have ports besides the Thunderbolt and/or did you find any that are exclusively Thunderbolt?

4) Are you putting spinning HDs in them or SSD? (What brand/model of either?)

 

I am somewhat interested in Thunderbolt, not because of their speed (which my personal experience leads me to believe is not that relevant to SQ), but because Thundebolt-equiped Macs have a dedicated controller for it which:

a) allows one to avoid use of the FW, USB, and SATA buses--each of which demonstrably do have a negative effect;

b) might offer some isolation/blockage of nasties that the disk or SSDs in the enclosures might generate on their SATA interfaces and chips.

 

While my 2010 Mac mini music server does not have a Thunderbolt port, my desktop 2012 i7 does. I have been thinking that with the evolution of A+ this year, Mavericks, the SD card and RAM disk things, plus a better USB cable and further improvements inside my DAC, it might be time to revisit my preference for the 2010 mini (which was based on a 3-way shootout I did last year versus late-2009 and an i5 2011 mini). Certainly will be easy to do now with my whole tweaked boot OS being on an SD card.

 

If Thunderbolt proves to be a really good sounding alternative for external high capacity music storage (versus FireWire400--the best sounding large thing I have now), then I would prefer to know this before I permanently pull the PS (and maybe some other junk) out of my 2010. So I could order a TBolt drive to try with my i7. If it does not beat my FW400 sonically, then no harm, I'll use it on my desk. If it does, then I might give the 2010 unit to my wife (and do another round of musical computer upgrades with the kids), and get a newer (2011 or 2012) unit with Thunderbolt for the music system. (Have to first be sure that i5/i7 units sound as good as my 2010 Core2 Duo--see above.) Would miss the optical of the 2010 for ripping, but could plug an external in somewhere. Wish they made Thunderbolt optical drives to add to the chain with the HD.

 

Thanks and regards,

ALEX C.

 

Hi Alex,

 

I choose Oyen Digital DataTale. I have several Oyen HD since more than 3 years and they works wonderful.

 

It has his own SPSU. It's only & exclusively Thunderbolt. Mine came with 4 Spinning 3Tb HDs, Seagate's Barracuda:

 

Oyen Digital: 12TB DataTale RS-M4T SMART 4-Bay Thunderbolt™ RAID System

 

It will work on Raid. One 3Tb HD with the DSD music, the other for backup. One 3Tb HD for iTunes, WAV, etc, the other for backup. I will add 2 more Thunderbolt Seagate 4Tb Backup Plus to have an extra backup in a safe and fire proof in my home.

 

My plan is not to use it to the full capacity, in order to avoid fragmentation. Then I will use about 2Tb of each 3Tb HD for the moment (I never finished ripping my CD collection).

 

The problem is DSD size, since I own already about 1.5Tb

 

LPSUs are on Hospital Grade ISO Transformers.

 

Best,

 

Roch

[Superdad]

Dear Roch:

 

Thank you for the information about your storage plans. The Oyen systems looks very good. Your storage needs, with all that DSD media, are much greater than my own. But I do like to have backups.

 

I am having trouble finding any single drive Thinderbolt enclosures that have only Thunderbolt interface. Everything I see also has USB, and I would prefer a unit which leaves off the USB. Please let me know if you see any like that.

 

Goodnight,

Alex C.

[tranz]

Please tell more about how you accomplish that! Where do you get an extension cable for the SATA? I assume that it plugs into where the internal drive usually goes, and you leave the mini's internal cables/connectors in place?

And then do you have the SotM filter and SSD in an custom or standard enclosure?

Pictures perhaps?

 

Thanks!

 

Hi Superdad,

 

1. The cable that comes with the Macmini plugs into the SOTM SATA filter.

 

You can buy the filter from sonore.us

 

2. The 22 pin extension cable goes from the SOTM SATA filter to the SSD.

 

There is an expensive heavily shielded SATA cable option available (paul professional audio studio), but I went with a cheap €5 which can be found on e.g. Amazon. This standard pink SATA cable portion is shielded, but I added some foil to the power side as a stop gap. But I am looking at EMI/RFI shielding from lessemf.com.

 

This is what I use:

 

NSIcable 22-pin (7+15) SATA Male to Female DATA and Power Combo Extension Cable - Slimline SATA Extension Cable M/F - 1Ft (33cm)

 

A few terrible photos attached...

 

You can also get two separate ones, but I had a hard time finding those; 7 pin for data and 15 pin for power. I might just break the 22 pin in two and find a way to power the 15 pins through an external linear PSU.

 

There is a thread I just found which sheds some light on powering the SSD externally, which I am going to look into for the MacMini.

 

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f10-music-servers/powering-ssd-17170/

 

I have found it hard to get non-fatiguing sound out of a MacMini, so this card route might be another option.

 

In terms of enclosures, some nutty but cheap stuff: distance, ERS cloth, aluminium alloy cookie sheets and bread pans (not all work in reducing EMI, so meter device and trial and error )

 

Cheers

[tranz]

 

I am having trouble finding any single drive Thinderbolt enclosures that have only Thunderbolt interface. Everything I see also has USB, and I would prefer a unit which leaves off the USB. Please let me know if you see any like that.

 

This is the one I use, which only has TBolt, and I power through an external linear PSU. Comes with the cable as well. It does have two drives though.

 

By the way, I did find speed and latency to be important with Amarra. Synology NAS was not good, but the TBolt has had no such issues. Plus In my setup the NAS added fatigue.

 

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]8977[/ATTACH]

 

WD My Book Thunderbolt Duo 4TB External Dual Hard Drive Storage

[jamesg11]

Possibly a bit late to the discussion: An applescript alternative to the various GUIs for making RAMDisks, for anyone who wants to run with it:

 

set DataSizeInMB to 1024
set AppSizeInMB to 512

set NumSectors to ((2 * 1024 * DataSizeInMB))
set DeviceName to do shell script "hdid -nomount ram://" & NumSectors
do shell script "diskutil eraseVolume HFS+ RAMDiskData " & DeviceName

set NumSectors to ((2 * 1024 * AppSizeInMB))
set DeviceName to do shell script "hdid -nomount ram://" & NumSectors
do shell script "diskutil eraseVolume HFS+ RAMDiskApp " & DeviceName

tell application "Finder"
duplicate file "Macintosh HD:Applications:Audirvana Plus.app" to "RAMDiskApp:"
end tell

 

This will create two disks - one called RAMDiskApp, half a gig size, and RAMDiskData, one gig. And as a bonus for the extremely idle, will copy Audirvana Plus onto the RAMDiskApp. Applescript includes commands for unmounting other volumes, stuff like that, so if you have patience with the syntax annoyances of the language it would be possible to automate some other parts of the setup as well.

 

Works well - need to listen more to see if it's better than music files on sd card. Really need a data ramdisk of about 5gb, for dsd.

[gustavo.skn]

Hello Alex (Superdad),

 

Your post got my attention enough to register here (Long time reader of CA but never seen something worth to register and give some opinions until now)

All your tests are really impressive, congrats. SD card sounding better than HDD internal drives are something I expected since it produces vibration. I know this was already said, but SSD should give you more idea if the SATA controller being on is what is making the difference you hear or it was just all the vibration.

What I don't have any good explanation is why different locations of files (HDD, External, FW, SD or RAMdisk) is making difference since A+ caches it in RAM. Being more clean

 

A+ -> get the 0 and 1s of the music from HDD -> stores into ram -> starts playing

A+ -> get the 0 and 1s of the music from RAMdisk -> stores into ram -> starts playing

 

In the end, both are playing from the same location, isn't it? Have you compared it using only one music in the playlist? Because the only explanation I can think for this difference is that, if you have more than one music in the playlist, while it is playing from cache, the SATA controller is introducing noise for reading the next file and starting to put into cache and that don't happen when you are playing from the SD card.

 

IMO, RAMdisk is only usable if you keep your computer on 24/7, since everything disappears when you turn it off, isn't it?

 

Thanks,

Gustavo

[Perlik]

I am also following this thread with attention.

I am not expert and do not participate often but I have the same question as Gustavo.

 

Would be great to have some explanations as I don’t really understand "noise" on digital 0-1 reading from HD and SATA cable improvement as the final message is anyway perfectly stored in RAM for A+.

 

I However understand PSU noise, impact on clock stability injecting degradation on the AD/DA converters or on asynch USB etc…

 

Thanks

Frank

[Superdad]

Hello Alex (Superdad),

 

Your post got my attention enough to register here (Long time reader of CA but never seen something worth to register and give some opinions until now)

All your tests are really impressive, congrats. SD card sounding better than HDD internal drives are something I expected since it produces vibration. I know this was already said, but SSD should give you more idea if the SATA controller being on is what is making the difference you hear or it was just all the vibration.

What I don't have any good explanation is why different locations of files (HDD, External, FW, SD or RAMdisk) is making difference since A+ caches it in RAM. Being more clean

 

A+ -> get the 0 and 1s of the music from HDD -> stores into ram -> starts playing

A+ -> get the 0 and 1s of the music from RAMdisk -> stores into ram -> starts playing

 

In the end, both are playing from the same location, isn't it? Have you compared it using only one music in the playlist? Because the only explanation I can think for this difference is that, if you have more than one music in the playlist, while it is playing from cache, the SATA controller is introducing noise for reading the next file and starting to put into cache and that don't happen when you are playing from the SD card.

 

IMO, RAMdisk is only usable if you keep your computer on 24/7, since everything disappears when you turn it off, isn't it?

 

Thanks,

Gustavo

 

Hello Gustavo and Perlik: Welcome!

 

I wish I had solid explanations for what we are repeatedly hearing. At the moment we just have theories without any measured confirmation. My close engineer friend, John Swenson, has told me of ways in which he could probe the computer to detect what he is convinced is ground plane noise and switching spikes getting in through some of the interfaces. He is working on a followup article, but you may find some insights in his second "interview" installment at:Q&A with John Swenson. Part 2: Are Bits Just Bits? | AudioStream

 

To answer your question regarding my test method. It was a reasonable suggestion, so today I made an A/B/C comparison between a track played from RAM disk, SD card, and Mac mini's internal SATA--this time having the playlist contain only the one single track (because Audirvana always buffers 2 tracks to RAM--the one you are playing and the next one in the playlist). Not only did I still hear the same, very obvious characteristics between the transfer media, but when I played from RAM disk or SD card I made an extra comparison between leaving the internal SATA drive mounted or "ejected" (where it then spins down and stops taking t the host). Not as large a difference as between the formats themselves, but audible nonetheless. Was definitely better with the SATA drive dismounted.

 

Of course that does not answer the question about vibration being a contributor--versus the cause being mostly electrical--since when the SATA was mounted it was spinning. I would need to buy and install an SSD to answer that. But I (and others here) can positively tell you that disconnecting externally-interfaced Firewire drives when not in use also makes a difference (actually very similar in character and degree as dismounting the internal SATA). And I don't think mechanics/vibration of that external drive is a factor (it's not on the same shelf as my computer)--unless the power draw of the drive is modulating something electrical. But my externals do not draw power from the computer (I use Firewire cables with the power legs cut). The 3A SMPS for the external drive is plugged into a circuit not just on a different mains breaker, but on a completely different sub-panel from the audio system and computer. And the difference I hear unplugging the Firewire cable is about the same whether or not I completely unplug the SMPS for the drive enclosure.

 

All this leaves us still wondering why a memory player like A+ would be so sensitive to where the data is drawn from. Based on all that I have tried, I think it is reasonable to assume that it is not Audirvana being effected, rather it is the computer's generation of the outbound USB signal (to the DAC) which is being affected by processes and minuscule "interference" while do so. That would certainly explain why by far the worst sounding of all the data storage/transfer methods--at least when one is using a USB DAC--is the USB.

 

I am very open to other theories and the results of other peoples' experimentation. I personally probably won't do too many more until I get our linear power supply hooked up to my mini. That will be a BIG step up for my system.

 

Regards,

ALEX

[elcorso]

Dear Roch:

 

Thank you for the information about your storage plans. The Oyen systems looks very good. Your storage needs, with all that DSD media, are much greater than my own. But I do like to have backups.

 

I am having trouble finding any single drive Thinderbolt enclosures that have only Thunderbolt interface. Everything I see also has USB, and I would prefer a unit which leaves off the USB. Please let me know if you see any like that.

 

Goodnight,

Alex C.

 

Hi Alex,

 

This is what I'll use for backup:

 

Seagate Backup Plus HD (several sizes)

 

Amazon.com: Seagate Backup Plus 4 TB USB 3.0 Desktop External Hard Drive STCA4000100: Computers & Accessories

 

 

 

Seagate Backup Plus Thunderbolt Adapater

 

Amazon.com: Seagate Backup Plus Desktop Thunderbolt Adapter (STAE129): Computers & Accessories

 

 

Even if the HD is USB 3.0 the Thunderbolt adapter leave the USB unusable (and out of access).

 

Best,

 

Roch

[Booster MPS]

Thanks for posting the link Roch. I believe that is the type of base that Jud was referring to earlier.

[Perlik]

Thanks Superdad for your answer.

Being audiophile since my childhood I am considering all path which could improve my system, and as computer software engineer I have a tendency to think in term of yes/no or 0-1 for digital signal. In other world I trust in a end to end digital flow when it is not manage in an asynchronous way. The problem and probably the main room for improvement being the DA/AD conversion and jitter.

 

I am preparing a test with my MacMini, and would also like to try with an external PSU but this requires hardware change and it is bit expensive if in the end I cannot hear the difference.

 

I also use the opportunity to thanks all contributors to this forum as it is a gold mine for Computer Audio and related topics.

Cheers

Frank

[Jud]

Hi Alex,

 

This is what I'll use for backup:

 

Seagate Backup Plus HD (several sizes)

 

Amazon.com: Seagate Backup Plus 4 TB USB 3.0 Desktop External Hard Drive STCA4000100: Computers & Accessories

 

 

 

Seagate Backup Plus Thunderbolt Adapater

 

Amazon.com: Seagate Backup Plus Desktop Thunderbolt Adapter (STAE129): Computers & Accessories

 

 

Even if the HD is USB 3.0 the Thunderbolt adapter leave the USB unusable (and out of access).

 

Best,

 

Roch

 

Hi Roch. As you'll see when you install the Thunderbolt adapter/base, the HDD is SATA, and the USB 3.0 interface is simply the adapter/base it was sold with. So you just pop off the SATA -> USB adapter, and pop on the SATA -> Thunderbolt adapter.

[Jud]

I am very open to other theories and the results of other peoples' experimentation. I personally probably won't do too many more until I get our linear power supply hooked up to my mini. That will be a BIG step up for my system.

 

Regards,

ALEX

 

Yeah, I've been really enjoying myself just listening to music (from an SD card - now looking for another 1 or 2 so I can get my entire collection on them) for the past few days.

[Jud]

IMO, RAMdisk is only usable if you keep your computer on 24/7, since everything disappears when you turn it off, isn't it?

 

Thanks,

Gustavo

 

At least on Windows there are utilities that will write the RAMdisk stuff to an image file before computer shutdown and automatically write it back to RAMdisk on startup, so the RAMdisk appears to be persistent. I had done a little research and think I found something similar for OS X, though unlike the Win utilities it did not have a GUI. Will see if I remember correctly and can dig it up again.