The Death of the Home Stereo System

[Robert Hutton]

I was going to make that comment too, but in a rare act of restraint, refrained.

 

The whole 'schlong' things must get a bit creepy for you, right?

[mayhem13]

My father god rest his soul, a first generation Italian grew up on the lower east side (delancy and Mott sts) and learned Yiddish as a second language. Didn't get a good grasp on english until being drafted in WW2. When i was a teenager, he took me to a stereo shop downtown called Mashughana Ike's to get me a 'good deal' on my first system. Once he started going with the salesman i was shocked to $h!t.....talking yiddish, waving his hands back and forth, bad luck to loose the first sale of the day......all sorts a crap. Got a really good deal though on a nice Marantz receiver, Infinity speaks and Pioneer TT. This place had a 'japan' connection so a lot of the gear wasn't for the US market. The TT had a really cool real Rosewood plynth and was probobly the finest TT i ever owned until the motor burned out and parts were N.A.

 

.......well thats my Yiddish story for the day! lol

[esimms86]

Mashugana Ike must have been a forerunner of the legendary Crazy Eddie whose prices were "insane."

 

I enjoyed your story but I really enjoyed Jud channeling Myron Cohen.

 

Esau

[Teresa]

Here is one of my favorite results: Archimago's Musings: High Bitrate MP3 Internet Blind Test: Part 2 - RESULTS

 

The majority thought the high-bitrate mp3 sounded better than the lossless, and this trend became more pronounced as the price (and presumably the quality) of gear increased.

 

Could it be because high frequencies above 15kHz on MP3s are greatly reduced or eliminated completely thus the adverse effects of brick-wall filtering are lessened? Could this be why MP3s sounded better than lossless at 16/44.1kHz to most of those tested? Could it be for this reason people perhaps felt more comfortable listening to the MP3 versions?

 

If any of the above is true, I wonder if these same people would prefer high resolution lossless music files at 88.2kHz or higher over 44.1kHz lossless as it takes the filtering above the audible range without sacrificing resolution.

 

I mention all this as I find it easier to listen to MP3s than to listen to lossless 16/44.1kHz even though MP3s to me sound poor, their poor sound quality doesn't have the listening fatigue I experience with lossless 16/44.1kHz PCM. On the other hand high resolution PCM and DSD offer me the both comfort and resolution.

 

All the above is my opinion only and I was hoping someone else would mention the brick-wall filtering versus rolled-off highs of MP3s as a possible reason so I wouldn't have to. I am trying very hard not to make anything appear as a fact as I have discovered that is dangerous thing to do, so once again these are just my opinions only, nothing else.

[kumakuma]

Welcome back, Theresa. I'm glad the unpleasantness in the other thread hasn't driven you away.

[Teresa]

Welcome back, Theresa. I'm glad the unpleasantness in the other thread hasn't driven you away.

 

I never went anywhere. As I said in the other thread I read Computer Audiophile everyday, but I'm just trying to not post anymore, nor will I debate on anything as I find it unpleasant and I prefer fun, such as enjoying music.

 

I have resisted posting in dozens of threads so far, but I kept waiting for someone to bring up the possibility of a lessened effect of brick-wall filtering due to MP3s high frequency roll off as a reason so many of those tested preferred MP3 over lossless. If someone had put forth the idea I would just be reading this thread.

 

Anyway I don't want to post anymore but I do want to read the debates about that proposition.

 

Thanks for your kind words.

[esimms86]

Teresa, I've read a couple of your musings on SACD in positive-feedback and I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts on the recent announcements of the current and future availability of DSD downloads, and Sony's major leap back into the DSD hardware and software market. I also wonder what you think about the recent announcement of a future Mobile Fidelity SACD release of Carole King's "Tapestry"(which was less than favorably reviewed when 1st released in SACD format). Obviously, it would be better placed in either its own thread or as a separate entry in, say, positive-feedback.

 

Esau

[mayhem13]

Could it be because high frequencies above 15kHz on MP3s are greatly reduced or eliminated completely thus the adverse effects of brick-wall filtering are lessened? Could this be why MP3s sounded better than lossless at 16/44.1kHz to most of those tested? Could it be for this reason people perhaps felt more comfortable listening to the MP3 versions?

 

If any of the above is true, I wonder if these same people would prefer high resolution lossless music files at 88.2kHz or higher over 44.1kHz lossless as it takes the filtering above the audible range without sacrificing resolution.

 

I mention all this as I find it easier to listen to MP3s than to listen to lossless 16/44.1kHz even though MP3s to me sound poor, their poor sound quality doesn't have the listening fatigue I experience with lossless 16/44.1kHz PCM. On the other hand high resolution PCM and DSD offer me the both comfort and resolution.

 

All the above is my opinion only and I was hoping someone else would mention the brick-wall filtering versus rolled-off highs of MP3s as a possible reason so I wouldn't have to. I am trying very hard not to make anything appear as a fact as I have discovered that is dangerous thing to do, so once again these are just my opinions only, nothing else.

 

If you're experiencing more fatigue with Redbook lossless over MP3, as a speaker designer I'd look towards the response of your speakers as the issue. I'd venture to say that either the response above 10khz is tipped upwards or you have a heavy resonant peak in one of the drivers not sufficiently surpressed in the crossover. Mid drivers will have inherent breakup modes which limit the Fullrange response. Although ' in theory' when sloped 2nd or 3rd order the overall response is down 20-30db, these breakups propagate as odd order harmonic distortions which result in response plot spikes of as much as 5-6db above flat......ouch!

 

Sometimes these breakup modes can be seen in a manufacturers impedance plot. Look for little wiggles in an otherwise smooth plot. Those wiggles often correspond with those nasty breakups at that freq and at octave above.

 

.....or it could simply be lots of harmonic distortion from the HF driver for other reasons.....material, internal,damping, poor crossover implementation.

[Teresa]

If you're experiencing more fatigue with Redbook lossless over MP3, as a speaker designer I'd look towards the response of your speakers as the issue. I'd venture to say that either the response above 10khz is tipped upwards or you have a heavy resonant peak in one of the drivers not sufficiently surpressed in the crossover. Mid drivers will have inherent breakup modes which limit the Fullrange response. Although ' in theory' when sloped 2nd or 3rd order the overall response is down 20-30db, these breakups propagate as odd order harmonic distortions which result in response plot spikes of as much as 5-6db above flat......ouch!

 

Sometimes these breakup modes can be seen in a manufacturers impedance plot. Look for little wiggles in an otherwise smooth plot. Those wiggles often correspond with those nasty breakups at that freq and at octave above.

 

.....or it could simply be lots of harmonic distortion from the HF driver for other reasons.....material, internal,damping, poor crossover implementation.

 

I believe it has to be something such as the brickwall filter and not my speakers since high resolution PCM up to the highest I have 24 bit 352.8kHz and both 2.8 and 5.6MHz DSD downloads sound fantastic and have no high frequency or listener fatigue issues, nor do SACDs, DVD-Audios, LPs or reel to reel tapes. That fatigue issue is limited only to Redbook CD and 16/44.1kHz downloads or high resolution I feel has been converted to 16/44.1kHz at some point in production.

 

MP3s while sounding poor don't have the listening fatigue of lossless 16/44.1kHz to me. However I find both MP3 and 16/44.1kHz unacceptable sonically.

 

My system:

 

Infinity Reference Standard 7 Kappa, 12 inch woofer, 3 inch midrange, EMIT tweeter

Sennheiser HD 515 headphones

AMC CVT 1030 Stereo Vacuum Tube preamplifier

Adcom GFA-555II High Current amplifier

Mac Mini Computer with 2.5 GHz processor, 8 GB memory and a 500 GB Hard Drive with Channel D's Pure Music software for FLAC and DSD music files

Teac UD-501 USB D/A Converter decodes PCM music files up to 32 bit 384kHz and DSD music files at both 2.8MHz and 5.6MHz

Mojo Audio Lucent Copper Ribbon Interconnects with Furutech FP-126R RCA plugs

Monster Cable Powerline 2 Plus speaker cables

[wgscott]

Could it be because high frequencies above 15kHz on MP3s are greatly reduced or eliminated completely thus the adverse effects of brick-wall filtering are lessened? Could this be why MP3s sounded better than lossless at 16/44.1kHz to most of those tested? Could it be for this reason people perhaps felt more comfortable listening to the MP3 versions?

 

If any of the above is true, I wonder if these same people would prefer high resolution lossless music files at 88.2kHz or higher over 44.1kHz lossless as it takes the filtering above the audible range without sacrificing resolution.

 

I mention all this as I find it easier to listen to MP3s than to listen to lossless 16/44.1kHz even though MP3s to me sound poor, their poor sound quality doesn't have the listening fatigue I experience with lossless 16/44.1kHz PCM. On the other hand high resolution PCM and DSD offer me the both comfort and resolution.

 

All the above is my opinion only ...

 

Actually, it seems like a very plausible explanation, and the test you propose would be quite compelling.

[Teresa]

Teresa, I've read a couple of your musings on SACD in positive-feedback and I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts on the recent announcements of the current and future availability of DSD downloads, and Sony's major leap back into the DSD hardware and software market. I also wonder what you think about the recent announcement of a future Mobile Fidelity SACD release of Carole King's "Tapestry"(which was less than favorably reviewed when 1st released in SACD format). Obviously, it would be better placed in either its own thread or as a separate entry in, say, positive-feedback.

 

Esau

 

I've been reviewing a lot of DSD downloads lately. I have many upcoming from Analogue Productions Originals, Opus 3 and HDTT. And a 24/176.4 from Reference Recordings.

 

I've had the 180 gram pressing of Carole King's "Tapestry" and it wasn't that good so I don't think it is a great recording, perhaps MFSL can milk the sound out of it others have missed as there is a lot of good music on it.

 

I'm keeping my finger's crossed that Sony is more successful with DSD downloads than with SACD. I love classic rock, jazz, blues, folk and world music, stuff missing or under represented on SACD, that is why I hope DSD downloads go mainstream. Imagine DSD downloads from the iTunes store and Amazon. That would be amazing, but I'm not holding my breath.

[souptin]

Hi Ms T

 

Interesting idea.

 

With the rolled off highs on mp3 - my theory was that this made unfamiliar recordings sound cleaner and more dynamic. Not precisely what you were saying, but perhaps we have some common ground there?

 

On the other hand, I took part in the test being referred to, and personally I didn't do any extended listening of the excerpts. If other test subjects did the same as me, then listening fatigue doesn't seem likely. My experience is that mp3 is more fatiguing (and just to round it out, my theory to go with that experience is that the brain is working a bit harder to try and fill in the missing information). So we are not in agreement on that.

 

But no matter, I welcome debate on this - why we like one presentation over another is, to me, more interesting than the rather macho challenges of whether one can hear a difference at all.

 

However, are you sure that you'd enjoy such a debate and any proposed tests in the context of high bit rate mp3s? From what you say you wouldn't get that much pleasure from listening to mp3 files anyway, plus my impression is that what you really want to discuss is something along the lines of "What does brick wall filtering sound like?", which probably deserves a topic all to itself, with mp3 only being a very small part of the debate.

 

Worst that can happen is that hardly anyone joins in, in which case you can join me in a self pity party: My new topics seem to miss the CA zeitgeist (whatever that means) with quite spectacular inaccuracy

[bluesman]

My system: Infinity Reference Standard 7 Kappa, 12 inch woofer, 3 inch midrange, EMIT tweeter

Yes, yes to IRS!! I stupidly sold my IRS IIs after a few years of sheer joy because of my wife's full-range response to their size. I don't know the K7s, but the EMIT units are essentially the same as I had, and every piece I've heard form the IRS series has been better than good.

 

I agree with you, Teresa - it's not your system!

 

Wow, do I miss these babies. For those of you who don't know the original IRS series, I had this model (those are 10" Watkins dual-drive polypropylene woofers, for scale). These were one level down from Infinity's flagship, the IRS (and later the IRS beta). Those Watkins woofers could really woof. Driven by my Hafler 500, they pumped out gobs of clean, tight, fast, full bass. It's a good thing I love my wife a lot....

[souptin]

It's a good thing I love my wife a lot....

 

Plus, should you ever fall out of love she's got a handy coffin-size enclosure to hide your dead body in! Not to mention a matching one for her mother-in-law

 

Disclaimer: The above was intended as a joke. My sincere apologies to anyone who finds it to be in poor taste and not at all funny. I am not seriously recommending you hide dead bodies in speaker enclosures: You will degrade their sound quality and very likely invalidate your warranty.

[Allan F]

Plus, should you ever fall out of love she's got a handy coffin-size enclosure to hide your dead body in! Not to mention a matching one for her mother-in-law

 

Disclaimer: The above was intended as a joke. My sincere apologies to anyone who finds it to be in poor taste and not at all funny. I am not seriously recommending you hide dead bodies in speaker enclosures: You will degrade their sound quality and very likely invalidate your warranty.

 

Read his post again. He doesn't have the coffins...oops, I mean speakers, anymore.

 

BTW, I used to own a pair of lower end Infinity speakers, but I didn't like the way the Emit tweeters used to hiss at me. Maybe, it's my fear of snakes.

[Audio_ELF]

Plus, should you ever fall out of love she's got a handy coffin-size enclosure to hide your dead body in! Not to mention a matching one for her mother-in-law

(For fans of certain 1970s British sitcoms)

 

Doesn't look big enough for a hipopotomous...

[NOMBEDES]

Plus, should you ever fall out of love she's got a handy coffin-size enclosure to hide your dead body in! Not to mention a matching one for her mother-in-law

 

Disclaimer: The above was intended as a joke. My sincere apologies to anyone who finds it to be in poor taste and not at all funny. I am not seriously recommending you hide dead bodies in speaker enclosures: You will degrade their sound quality and very likely invalidate your warranty.

 

 

Souptin: God, LMAO! Your disclaimer is classic. Post of the Day!!!!

[Savage]

Never ask what happened to Mrs. Soup

 

[souptin]

Good spot, Allan F. Best excuse I can come up with was I was distracted by the line about him "missing these babies". Sounded eeeeevilll!

 

I had Infinities in my first (and second) cars. Was during the swap that I killed one of the tweeters by my clumsy soldering. Alpine amp & the front end was the Walkman D6 that I've mentioned before. Could never compete with the fully tricked out car systems that make the ground shake, but I loved it. Happy days.

[souptin]

Never ask what happened to Mrs. Soup

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]8222[/ATTACH]

 

How did you get hold of a nude picture of Mrs Soup? Open lid as well!

(She is a hottie, though, isn't she?)

[mayhem13]

I believe it has to be something such as the brickwall filter and not my speakers since high resolution PCM up to the highest I have 24 bit 352.8kHz and both 2.8 and 5.6MHz DSD downloads sound fantastic and have no high frequency or listener fatigue issues, nor do SACDs, DVD-Audios, LPs or reel to reel tapes. That fatigue issue is limited only to Redbook CD and 16/44.1kHz downloads or high resolution I feel has been converted to 16/44.1kHz at some point in production.

 

MP3s while sounding poor don't have the listening fatigue of lossless 16/44.1kHz to me. However I find both MP3 and 16/44.1kHz unacceptable sonically.

 

My system:

 

Infinity Reference Standard 7 Kappa, 12 inch woofer, 3 inch midrange, EMIT tweeter

Sennheiser HD 515 headphones

AMC CVT 1030 Stereo Vacuum Tube preamplifier

Adcom GFA-555II High Current amplifier

Mac Mini Computer with 2.5 GHz processor, 8 GB memory and a 500 GB Hard Drive with Channel D's Pure Music software for FLAC and DSD music files

Teac UD-501 USB D/A Converter decodes PCM music files up to 32 bit 384kHz and DSD music files at both 2.8MHz and 5.6MHz

Mojo Audio Lucent Copper Ribbon Interconnects with Furutech FP-126R RCA plugs

Monster Cable Powerline 2 Plus speaker cables

 

Thanx for the reply Theresa.

 

Now I'm going to express some opinions which none of which are personal......but given your firm stance on and assurance of your listening experience and evaluations, they need to be expressed

 

Your Kappa 7's from a 'reference' standpoint are anything but....and here's why

 

The response is anything but flat

The emit units are pretty rich in odd order harmonic distortion

The very high crossover point from the mid to tweet creates extreme comb filtering when considering the 1/4 wavelength minima for center to center spacing

And an assumption....if they are all original, they're in desperate need of a crossover rebuild since the components ( again of original) are way off the original tolerance values as implemented by the crossover.

 

That being said, in their day the Kappas were great sounding speakers, BUT...colored just the same and to use them as a reference speaker for evaluating source material and then to make hypothesis about the material and the listenining experience is....well....not nearly as accurate as it should be. Again, no personal implications.....as you've but it many times.....it's your 'opinion'.....which is not my intention to criticize but to only suggest that maybe your assesment of source material in regards to bitrate, format, etc is somewhat compromised.

[sandyk]

Mayhem13

I think that you are letting your major area (but not only!!!) of expertise get in the way of you seeing the overall picture.( grin)

If the CD was from the same original master as the high resolution version, AND the engineering has been properly implemented, then the high res version should sound very close to that of the CD version, but without any brickwall filter to get in the way as we approach the HF limitations of the CD medium, which when well recorded, can sound very close indeed to the high resolution version. Clearly, something is getting in the way of Teresa enjoying the CD medium, but NOT her enjoyment of well recorded high resolution PCM recordings or well recorded DSD. This would tend to suggest that any minor speaker shortcomings are not the problem here.

Kind Regards

Alex

[Paul R]

Hey Teresa - I rarely agree with you, but I almost always enjoy your postings. (grin) It is rather fun to enjoy each other's differences.

-Paul

 

 

I never went anywhere. As I said in the other thread I read Computer Audiophile everyday, but I'm just trying to not post anymore, nor will I debate on anything as I find it unpleasant and I prefer fun, such as enjoying music.

 

I have resisted posting in dozens of threads so far, but I kept waiting for someone to bring up the possibility of a lessened effect of brick-wall filtering due to MP3s high frequency roll off as a reason so many of those tested preferred MP3 over lossless. If someone had put forth the idea I would just be reading this thread.

 

Anyway I don't want to post anymore but I do want to read the debates about that proposition.

 

Thanks for your kind words.

[Snowmonkey]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]8222[/ATTACH]

 

How did you get hold of a nude picture of Mrs Soup? Open lid as well!

(She is a hottie, though, isn't she?)

Hasn't she heard horizontal stripes make you look fatter?

[sandyk]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]8222[/ATTACH]

 

 

Hasn't she heard horizontal stripes make you look fatter?

 

Shhh. Don't tell Heinz or Campbells that, or they will print them on the outside of their soup cans to make them look bigger.