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Sony ... announces DSD capable hardware


Synfreak

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Yes, I agree that converting PCM to DSD is just changing the format and not adding new content.

 

However, PCM requires rather complex processing that DSD does not, and as I noted, can provide some astoundingly good sound from some DACs. I don't think that means the DAC processes PCM worse than other DACs, or processes DSD better than PCM. I think it at least implies that DSD processing can sound better than PCM processing for the exact same material.

 

-Paul

 

 

I don't believe you can start with LPCM, convert it to DSD and expect better except in the case that your chosen DAC is better at handling DSD and somehow deficient in its handling of LPCM. The conversion process can't create new content. The poster was asking if converting everything to DSD was the way to go.

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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Depends upon what you mean by "insurmountable" - throw enough money and time at something, and you can usually solve it very well.

 

The point is, DSD is fundamentally different than LPCM, and does not present many of the challenges that LPCM does. For example, LPCM requires some sophisticated filtering on the playback side that DSD does not. Of course, good filters are possible, we have many examples of that. But you can get the same quality as with the best (read expensive) LPCM filters by using DSD and a very simple filter.

 

Or to put it another way, the potential of DSD starts where some of the best LPCM processing winds up. Much more potential to be exploited.

 

-Paul

 

 

You're effectively arguing that LPCM still poses insurmountable structural hurdles or challenges that DSD doesn't. I guess that's a question for someone like the engineers at Theta Digital as a leading manufacturer of LPCM DACs. Could they achieve better quality were they to be processing DSD rather than LPCM? I suspect not. In any event, I wouldn't be rushing out to convert all my LPCM files to DSD...

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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Nope- for DSD to survive and flourish, it will take getting all the popular and classical music back catalogs into high res mastered DSD format. That means Sony and the other big players. No getting around that.

 

Paul

 

I doubt that Sony , that is pretty well on "life support", and almost certainly pruning engineering staff sections and levels is going to be too adventurous. There may even be some outsourcing involved ?

If DSD is to succeed , it will almost certainly be due to the efforts of "Blue Coast" and others.

Just making back catalogue from SACD heydays available again isn't what's needed. What's needed are new general releases where the guys in suits haven't told the Recording and Mastering Engineers to make it all sound as loud as possible.

 

Alex

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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Oh yes, back catalogs are incredibly profitable. For instance, while iTunes sells pretty much everything new under the sun, you don't think the billions of songs they sold are all, or even mostly, new do you?

 

For instance, I would probably re-buy a bunch of my catalog in DSD if it were remastered. Certainly all the Beatles, Alan Parsons, Al Stewart, Beethoven, Copeland, Dire Straights, ELO, and so on.

 

-Paul

 

Paul

Do you honestly believe that there is a big market among the MP3 generation for music made before they were born ?

To become a force in the market place , DSD needs support from more than just the over 50's wanting to relive their youth.

Alex

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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Well, you are welcome to your opinion, but there are many who hold dissenting opinions. Including me - I think it is damn exciting that Sony is finally getting off their duff and endorsing hi-res material. In fact, I think that is perhaps one of the most exciting things to have happened in several years.

 

It would have been better coming from Apple on iTunes, but, hell - I am glad to see it from any company big enough to pull it off and get the competitors to imitate them. Sony is that, among many other things.

 

-Paul

Edit - Aiii yiiii yiii! I am agreeing with Mayhem again... the world is about to stop spinning I think...

Oh, one and bit, you miss the point. This has nothing to do with one DAC versus another. Nothing exciting has been announced here on either the content or the hardware point of view. There's some cause for a twitch of excitement were Sony to get behind DSD download but there's absolutely no indication of such yet.

 

So nothing to do with being obstinate.

 

And please curb your language and remain civil. I know it requires some effort on your part.

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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Well, since Sony Music is huge, we can hope rhat does not happen. HDTracks is far too small to argue with the big record companies. Sony Is a big record conpany. One can hope. And iTunes is still there, selling an enormous amount of music, books, and video.

 

But what if Sony only releases it for the Japanese domestic market like they did with BluSpec, and BluSpec 2 ? (grin)

They desperately need to sort out this international distribution rights garbage for it to succeed. Several years down the track,. and HDTracks is still promising sales to more than just U.S.A territories, one day.

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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That's kind of silly isn't it? The masses buy music where it is available. Please show me where 90% of the top selling music today is available at CD res, other than on a CD. Which is not convenient and costs more.

 

Put CD quality downloads on iTunes and you will sell billions on them. Put DSD quality downloads on iTunes, and you won't sell many at all, until iPhones and iPods and iPads can play them. Then you will sell billions of DSD downloads.

 

Perhaps in iOS 7.

 

-Paul

 

The masses are ignoring 44.1kHz/16 bit CD let alone high-res.

 

BTW I would bet that Apple would love to be able to offer CD quality and that it's the record (and distribution) companies putting the brakes on this not Apple

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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As I said - put CD quality, or DSD quality, or anything you like on iTunes, sell it for $0.99/track, and it will sell billions of copies. Instant acceptance of hi-res files, or DSD or XYZ. Doesn't matter.

 

The key is for Sony to convince Apple to sell files for their hardware. Apple will probably resist until they can sell hardware that takes advantage of it too. ;)

 

-Paul

 

 

"Please show me where 90% of the top selling music is available at CD res, other than on a CD."

 

Exactly the point. Apart from a tiny percentage of the market (less than 1%?) the market for downloaded music is 256kbps. If you are part of the rapidly declining market for quality 44.1kHz / 16 bit recordings you buy the CD or scrape around for has-been re-releases of stuff that helps you reminisce about days gone by.

 

You have to take account of all the vested interests and contracts. Record companies and various players in audio distribution still have a lot invested in the conventional CD (and vinyl for that matter). They're not about to cede control and profits to the likes of Apple. So things will take time to change. This Sony announcement doesn't change anything.

 

Only a trivial, ignorable fraction of people buying music even know what DSD is. A small fraction of those have the ability to play a DSD download. Relatively few people will pay a premium for DSD (as was the case with SACD) even if they can play them on an iPhone or iPad (and why would you bother). You're just not that important for the record companies or musicians.

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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I easily stream 24/96 to my phone now, anywhere I have cell or wifi service. That includes driving down the highway in my Jeep.

And the 16/44.1 and better files sound a lot better than Sirius XM or local FM broadcasts. :)

 

-Paul

 

 

I think the more reasonable model would be: pay for the hires file for listening at home and stream the low Rez to your phone.

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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I think you miss the point- it doesn't matter if it is CD or downloads or whatever, if you make it easily available, people will buy it.

 

Musicians? If someone sells 50K singles on Apple? Probably pretty good, as that is $34,650 straight into the musician's pocket. Not too shabby. The hot singles that sell well - hundreds of thousands of copies - obviously make quite a bit more. Just from iTunes.

 

Again, you miss the point. The key is to convince Sony to abandon it's entire physical disk distribution system and accelerate the takeup of digital downloads. Apple doesn't need convincing. Now, how would musicians feel if all they sold were singles and very few albums?

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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What is a phone tarrif? A charge on how much cellular data you use?

 

We have "unlimited" cellular data usage, which means after 3 gigs AT&T will throttle the connection, but we have never even approached that limit on any of the phones. That is mostly because pretty much everywhere, outside of my Jeep, that I tend listen to to music, has wi-fi. That does not count against any limits of course.

 

Of course, with 5 iPhones on my mobile plan, the monthly bill runs $300 anyway...

 

Paul

 

Yes, but how much data do you use on your phone tarrif a month? Thats the issue here in UK...

 

Eloise

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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Ah- one of the many many wags I paid my way through school was playing piano in some upscale bars and for a friend vamping up the torch singer act. I remember the pay scale well, and not with fond memories.

 

The CEO of Sony does not care about much save profit- they see DSD as a way to make more money is all.

 

Paul

 

Were I a shareholder of Sony I'd be glad you're not CEO.

 

As for how much the musician gets, don't give up your day job and start playing guitar for money! :-)

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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Five iPhones equals upfont cost of $995 ($199 each, with two year committment to At&T, with 700 shared 'anytime' minutes per month. But... That includes unlimited mobile to mobile minutes, unlimted calling to any phone from 6pm to 6am, no long distance charges, unlimited texting, and unlited data on each line, including the use of facetime.

 

We never go over the minutes, even with me on the phone for work every day. In fact there are a ton of 'rollover' minutes on the account too.

 

Data on each phone is $30 per month, which is easily about half the bill. And two of the phones are a long way from Texas too - with one in Illinois and one on Michigan, but we never ever see long distance charges.

 

All the phones have LTE service, with network speeds around 40mbs. Now, if I can just get used to iOS 7!

 

inthink you guys have much better pricing than we do, unless you convert Euros to Dollars. ;)

 

 

5 subscriptions for 1000 minutes call + 100 SMS + LTE (4G) data package would be 140€/month here. But I guess you have the phone included?

 

5 * iPhone 5 16 GB plus above package would be 265€/month here, 24 month plan. No upfront payment.

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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