SACD DSD Files into FLAC container : Jriver don't play

[Lupin 3rd]

Hi all,

I own some DSD files encapsulated into FLAC container.

I do not know who is the author of those files but they play well on my previous Lumin Music player.

 

Today I've tested those files in Jriver 18 but It don't play them.

Jriver perfectly read tags of those flacs but if I listen to the sound I can hear only noise.

 

I've some other .dff files that jriver play well.

 

So my questions are:

1) there is some way to play those flacs in Jriver?

2) there is some tool to extract .dff files from those flacs ?

 

thank you all.

[Matt Ashland]

Could you describe what you mean by "DSD files encapsulated into FLAC container"?

 

I'm not aware of any sort of native DSD support in FLAC, so pushing DSD (maybe in DoP?) into a FLAC file sounds a little gross.

 

It would be better to use DFF, DSF, or SACD ISO, all of which are fully supported by MC.

[ted_b]

They are called "DoP" files and they grew out of an experiment to see if 24/176k FLAC transports (like an EDO-modded Squeezebox Touch) could carry DSD in the FLAC container (like DoP does in a PCM bistream). It works for SBT. You need a DSD DAC at the other end, of course.

 

Our own Russ (Russtafarian) wrote a nice primer here:

How to use the Squeezebox Touch to play DSD files on a DoP compatible DAC

[russtafarian]

I found out how to create these DoP FLAC files from DSF files so I could play DSD through my Squeezebox to a DoP DSD DAC. And they do work for this application. See Ted's link above for more info.

 

I was hoping the DoP FLAC files would also play directly from Jriver via USB into my DSD DAC, but they don't. I get a little bit of music signal and a lot of white noise. Oh well. Application specific.

 

Russ

[agentsmith]

That is strange, it should not be application specific.

 

As far as I know if it is bit perfect it should just hand the stream over to the DAC and play. It should either play music if bit perfect or play noise otherwise. The music with noise issue is very strange.

[firedog]

I found out how to create these DoP FLAC files from DSF files so I could play DSD through my Squeezebox to a DoP DSD DAC. And they do work for this application. See Ted's link above for more info.

 

I was hoping the DoP FLAC files would also play directly from Jriver via USB into my DSD DAC, but they don't. I get a little bit of music signal and a lot of white noise. Oh well. Application specific.

 

Russ

 

Doesn't work for me either

[Audio_ELF]

That is strange, it should not be application specific.

 

As far as I know if it is bit perfect it should just hand the stream over to the DAC and play. It should either play music if bit perfect or play noise otherwise. The music with noise issue is very strange.

Does this mean J.River isn't bit prefect?

 

Have you tried disabling DoP playback on J.River see if that works?

[Skeptic]

It's not an issue of being bit-perfect. (which JRiver is) The problem is that FLAC files are only supposed to contain PCM audio. When you encode other formats such as DoP or DTS-WAV into FLAC or any other lossless PCM compression format, you're doing things it was not built to support.

 

So if you try to play this DoP file, it appears to be a 176kHz PCM file as far as JRiver or any other player is concerned. So JRiver will put your DAC into PCM mode, rather than DSD mode. If you try encoding to DSD, it's encoded twice now.

 

What you need is the ability to either extract the original raw 1-bit DSD information from this DoP file, or force the DAC into DoP mode and bitstream the file instead of encoding it to DoP. (which JRiver's DoP output mode obviously does)

 

 

As for why files like this get made in the first place... well some hardware devices (typically not via a USB connection) don't pay any attention to what the signal format is, and perform analysis on the audio stream that's being played.

So they might start out playback in PCM mode (static noise) and after a few seconds, recognize that it's DTS-WAV or DoP information, and switch over to the correct mode.

I guess there must be other devices which buffer the audio and perform this detection before playing anything, managing to avoid the burst of static at the start.

 

What you probably need to rectify this would be an option added to JRiver that lets you mark the files as DoP or DTS-WAV, so it knows that it's not PCM inside the FLAC files, and handles them appropriately. (bitstreaming in the correct format, or converting as necessary)

[Leica]

All my DSD files are are stored as Flac and I have no problems with JRiver. I am using version 18 though.

 

JRiver, just like foobar2000 thinks that I am playing 176kHz PCM files, but of course my DAC is smart enough to detect the DoP and instantly recognises them as DSD audio and decodes them perfectly.

 

I much prefer this method to use the Flac container since I can use metadata easily and use ANY media player even ones that do not support DSD. Also I can use DNLA/UPnP servers which otherwise would not work with DSD files.

 

I can't see any disadvantages to this method.

[Skeptic]

All my DSD files are are stored as Flac and I have no problems with JRiver. I am using version 18 though.

Like I said, it's not an issue with JRiver - but it is something they could work around if there was some way to mark them as "DoP files".

 

JRiver, just like foobar2000 thinks that I am playing 176kHz PCM files, but of course my DAC is smart enough to detect the DoP and instantly recognises them as DSD audio and decodes them perfectly.

It's not really a case of your DAC being "smart enough" it's just that your DAC is looking for DoP all the time even when it's being told that it is being sent PCM audio.

 

I can't see any disadvantages to this method.

The disadvantage is that it doesn't work with most hardware - at least not when it's connected directly to the computer.

[vortecjr]

Team, the method of using a DSD file encoded into DoP and subsequently put into a FLAC container should work as follows:

 

1. The player supports FLAC playback

2. The player supports the 176.4K sample rate

4. The player is bit perfect. **This assumes that you have digital volume set to 100% and no form of DSP taking place.

3. The DAC suports DoP input

4. It does not matter if the player is set to DoP or native DSD output because it's not playing a .DSF or .DFF file

 

Jesus R

[Leica]

The disadvantage is that it doesn't work with most hardware - at least not when it's connected directly to the computer.

 

With my Chord QuteHD it works with USB, Toslink and Coaxial SPDIF - all three inputs. With a Teac 501 I tried, it worked with USB only. It did not work with other inputs.

[vortecjr]

With my Chord QuteHD it works with USB, Toslink and Coaxial SPDIF - all three inputs. With a Teac 501 I tried, it worked with USB only. It did not work with other inputs.

 

This seems to follow what has been reported on the DSD database.

 

Jesus R

[Miska]

It's not really a case of your DAC being "smart enough" it's just that your DAC is looking for DoP all the time even when it's being told that it is being sent PCM audio.

 

It is, with DoP that is the specific way to tell DAC to switch to DSD mode. There is no other information or any side channel used to enable DSD mode. So any bit-perfect playback should work fine from a DoP FLAC or WAV/AIFF.

 

Only with non-DoP DSD playback like ASIO DSD there is a separate way to switch DAC between PCM and DSD modes, but then the DoP stuff is not needed at all in first place...