Mutec MC-3+

[SwissBear]

If the sampling frequency is the same, then the gear changing time would be minimal, otherwise there's 3 time lags, the two DDC plus the DAC.

Hi One and a half,

 

Before upsampling, the actual sampling rate switching latency, through the 2 Mutec MC-3+ USB and into the DAC, was between 3 and 4 seconds. I had adjusted this parameter in Audirvana to be able to enjoy the beginning of each track when listening to a playlist, where tracks were of different sampling rates.

 

After upsampling the sampling rate switching latency has completely disappeared, by definition I would say, which is an additional advantage of this solution.

[One and a half]

Hi One and a half,

 

Before upsampling, the actual sampling rate switching latency, through the 2 Mutec MC-3+ USB and into the DAC, was between 3 and 4 seconds. I had adjusted this parameter in Audirvana to be able to enjoy the beginning of each track when listening to a playlist, where tracks were of different sampling rates.

 

After upsampling the sampling rate switching latency has completely disappeared, by definition I would say, which is an additional advantage of this solution.

 

Cool; that theory holds. For HQ Player, there are no time delays to allow the DAC to settle by the user that was more to the point of the question how this interacts. As far as HQ Player is concerned, it handshakes with the DDC 1 and that's all it has to do, it cannot sense the DAC or DDC 2.

 

3-4s is a long time to wait for sample rate changes, the flexibility is adjustable in A+, so upsampling is certainly the advantage.

[gldgate]

Some good news, what chip is the USB Host controller on the motherboard?

 

The Sabertooth Z97 Mark 2, USB 3.1 Motherboard has both Intel Z97 express chipset and ASMedia USB 3.1 Controller. I'm using one of the ASMedia USB connections without any issues.

[One and a half]

The Sabertooth Z97 Mark 2, USB 3.1 Motherboard has both Intel Z97 express chipset and ASMedia USB 3.1 Controller. I'm using one of the ASMedia USB connections without any issues.

 

That explains a little further, both the MacBookPro and the Lenovo m93 Tiny use an Intel USB 3.0 extensible Host Controller, each one gives me trouble.

[gldgate]

Some more personal opinions on the Mutec with my system. Note that I have 51 year old ears and last I checked they were not made of gold.

 

- Definitely prefer Mutec to straight Yggy or Breeze converter. This confirms my initial impression from Friday. Sound retains Yggy detail but has what I can only describe as more smoothness/liquidity.

 

- I prefer the Mutec/Yggy connected via AES over Coax but it's pretty close

 

- I used Mutec in two systems. A single PC setup without USB card (Puget Systems Serenity Pro) and a dual PC setup with CAPS Pipeline as Audio PC using Jplay, SOTM USB card and Optical network. The CAPS dual PC setup sounded better. Probably due to USB card and optical network. In the dual setup, adding Regen did not add anything. In single PC setup I think the Regen was marginally beneficial but I would not bet money I could pass a blind A/B test.

 

- I tried playing around with selecting different clock multipliers but honestly could not tell a difference.

 

- Other than Breeze I have not owned other digital converters, especially a high end one (like Berkeley) so can't provide any comparisons. These were the two that were on my short list. In the end, I went with the Mutec because (a) it's cheaper (b) it's newer and © versatility.

 

I should be getting a Wyred recovery in this week and will try that out. Given the results with Regen I'm not expecting much.

 

Overall, I consider myself satisfied with the purchase. While $1K is not cheap, the cost of USB "fix it" doodads, especially in combination (Regen, Recover, Intona, LPS, curious etc..) can add up pretty quickly. While the Mutec does not do everything, the combination of galvanic isolation, reclocking and converter appears to be a very versatile and sensible piece of equipment. Mutec's pro audio background also is a plus in my book (lower bs factor).

[One and a half]

Thanks gldgate for the update, few questions?

 

On the coax, did you try the 75 Ohm BNC? It's difficult to spot perhaps in the small writing at the back, it is amongst the clock outputs. This was recommended to me by Mutec. If you have the facility to use AES3, then that's the best.

 

The setting of the clocks is a little complex (for me), depends on the source sampling frequency and what is output. I think we could post photos and compare might be easier, and also to learn from errors as well. If Julian can pop in from time to time to check what we are doing is right

[One and a half]

Leds with DSD256 input, fixed PCM output of 176.4kHz (AES3)

 

 

Leds with PCM192k, AES 3 output fixed at 192k. If HQ Player PCM filter is set to none, the MC-3+USB will change to suit.

 

 

The two far rows of red Leds are "read only" the result of the green leds to the left. Like I said, these might be totally wrong, we're new at this.

[gldgate]

Thanks gldgate for the update, few questions?

 

On the coax, did you try the 75 Ohm BNC? It's difficult to spot perhaps in the small writing at the back, it is amongst the clock outputs. This was recommended to me by Mutec. If you have the facility to use AES3, then that's the best.

 

The setting of the clocks is a little complex (for me), depends on the source sampling frequency and what is output. I think we could post photos and compare might be easier, and also to learn from errors as well. If Julian can pop in from time to time to check what we are doing is right

 

I did not try BNC. I will pick up a cable and give it a shot.

 

I was completely winging the clock multiplier settings. I just tried a bunch of different settings to see if I could hear a difference. They all sounded the same to me so I ultimately just left it in the default setting. There was no real purpose behind what I was doing - just pushing buttons like a 5 year old to see what would happen.

[gldgate]

Thanks for posting the pics. I've been using Roon/Tidal so setting is essentially your second picture with 44K output to AES. The Yggy does not do DSD and I prefer the Yggy's internal "combo burrito" filter to the HQ Player ones. I think my next step is to try my Sabre DAC with Mutec so I can experiment with some of the DSD settings.

[One and a half]

Thanks for posting the pics. I've been using Roon/Tidal so setting is essentially your second picture with 44K output to AES. The Yggy does not do DSD and I prefer the Yggy's internal "combo burrito" filter to the HQ Player ones. I think my next step is to try my Sabre DAC with Mutec so I can experiment with some of the DSD settings.

 

If DSD goes all the way through to the DAC, then DoP is available, maximum of DSD64. There were some doubts about the DSD to PCM conversion in my mind, it was not the prime motivation for purchasing the DDC, however at DSD128 -> 176.4 was very good indeed, so went higher to 256 and kept it there, using this setting ever since.

[One and a half]

I need to set the record straight on post #178 and the multimeter used. The Fluke 114 doesn't read "mixed" voltages all that well at all, so all the voltages measured are not right and need to be discarded. In fact I am looking for another meter, perhaps an Agilent.

 

With a different meter, Fluke 87V the other day, the following amendments apply.

 

V1 = Measure earth to Intona input = 1mV. This means the USB shell from the computer is at earth (ground) potential.

V2 = Measure earth to Intona output = 105mV

 

The addition of the isolation transformer on the AC supply to the computer, caused an imbalance of ground current which should have gone back to the AC supply but was coupled to the USB cable's shields instead and through the DDC. This is a classic ground loop, but in the digital side. With the isolation transformer removed, the balance was restored. It goes to show that bits are not bits, and USB signals are after all voltages and susceptible to ground loops and interference just like analog audio using interconnects with the resultant poor SQ,tyvm.

 

The lessons learned here is not to use an isolation transformer in front of a computer that uses:

 

- Balanced digital : USB, AES3

- Depending on the receiver, AES3id

[dtb300]

Some more personal opinions on the Mutec with my system. Note that I have 51 year old ears and last I checked they were not made of gold.

 

First, thanks for the report on the Mutec 3+USB and Yggy. I have been reading this thread for a bit and looking around the net concerning the 3+USB Smart Clock and other Mutec products.

 

I sent an email to Mutec asking about the differences between the 1.2 and 3+USB as both offer USB inbound and AES, BNC, S/PDIF out. I inquired about the differences between them.

 

The "CEO" of Mutec replied to my email - nice!!! And I thought others may be considering a Mutec product for a DDC. Here is his reply:

"thank you for your inquiry.

 

Generally spoken, you can use the MC-1.2 for that what you want to do, no question. When it comes to improvement of the audiophile quality, you better use the MC-3+USB. It is right that this unit offers much more functionality which is not needed for your application, but inside it is based on our 1G-Clock technology and all audio runs through our re-clocking stage before it is available at the outputs. This helps to improve the audio quality of the MC-3+USB clearly audible over that one of the MC-1.2. But on the other hand we also have lots of customers very satisfied with the quality of the MC1.2 in front of their DAC's"

Best regards, Chris.

 

Dipl.-Ing. Christian Peters

Geschäftsführer / CEO

[gldgate]

I had a chance to listen to Mutec with HQ/Roon today with the Yggy. My fav HQ setting is closed form but I still prefer the sound of Yggy's native filter. However, this gave me a chance to reclock using the clock multipliers. I listened to default setting and reclocked to 176Kh. Here is a pix:

 

 

I honestly could not tell much of a difference but it did not hurt anything. It's also really easy to reclock. Hit a few buttons. If you accidentally input a wrong clock setting that Mutec can't handle you simply won't get any sound.

[One and a half]

The clock multiplier section had my poor head scratching, even consulted the German manual to make some sense out of the numbering with the same confused face. The confusion (with me) is that the word row in the manual is confused with column (like in Excel). Row is horizontal, and Column is vertical. Could also use 'rank' for vertical.

 

I hope the the way it sort of works out is like this :

 

LED 1 Column (or Rank) is the Word Clock output 1 (page 18)

LED 2 Column is the Word clock output 2 (page 18)

 

"Their numbering legend is assigned to the output numbers on the rear panel"

"The »CLOCK MULTIPLIERS« menu provides access to selecting several clock multipliers for the Word Clock (1&2), S/P-DIF (3), and AES3/11 (4) outputs as described in the section »Choosing clock multipliers«"

 

If you look on the back of the MC-3+USB, there are four BNC labelled 1A, 1B, 2A, 2B. The clock multipliers on the first two columns are for these outputs only, so A & B are a duplicate to connect two devices. By arranging the LEDs according to the table in the manual on page 22, 23 in the German Manual, you can select the maximum frequency for the Word clock Outputs.

 

 

- If you had a device to sync to say 1-10MHz on rear panel output 1A, the first column at LED 1 would be nothing lit.

 

- At the same time, you could have 192kHz Limit on WordClock output rear panel 1B, the LED 2 at row 1 would be lit, as well as the LED at row 2 under LED 2.

 

For us folk that don't have such devices,

 

LED 3 Column is for the S/PDIF output (the Coax BNC and TOSlink)

LED 4 Column is for the AES3 output

 

The S/PDIF and AES3 have limited outputs to 192kHz, they can't go to 8x, so there's only the 3 LEDs per column.

 

For column 3, S/PDIF outputs we can multiply x 1 (first LED at row 1 column 3), x 2 (second LED at Row 2 column 3) or x4 (third LED at Row 3 column 3)

 

For Column 4, AES3 output same as for S/PDIF but all at column 4.

 

The debate is, does it sound any different, or is the menuing system locked out under different rates?

 

Don't know will have to wait cause figuring this out has chewed into experiment time and it's time for eyes to shut

[dtb300]

 

Leds with PCM192k, AES 3 output fixed at 192k. If HQ Player PCM filter is set to none, the MC-3+USB will change to suit.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]24258[/ATTACH]

 

The two far rows of red Leds are "read only" the result of the green leds to the left. Like I said, these might be totally wrong, we're new at this.

 

So making sure I understand your settings - please correct if wrong:

 

Column 1. Using Internal Clock, and Re-clocking output (re-clock not up-sample)

 

Column 2. You are using USB IN - either with PCM or DSD/DoP inbound - only the first LED would be lit if you were only sending PCM.

 

Column 3. You are not up-sampling any inbound signal so these are all off

 

Column 4. Just play the sample rate presented to the Mutec (1x)

 

Next three column LED's are generated by the Mutec. Outbound signal occurs on ALL out connections so no selection to be made for outbound connection.

 

This way whatever HQP is sending to the Mutec will get re-clocked at inbound sample rate and sent to your DAC.

[One and a half]

So making sure I understand your settings - please correct if wrong:

 

 

I will try This device can perform a LOT of functions!

 

Column 1. Using Internal Clock, and Re-clocking output (re-clock not up-sample).

The reclocking is for the input AND the output. (see page 19 in the manual (last paragraph)).

 

Column 2. You are using USB IN - either with PCM or DSD/DoP inbound - only the first LED would be lit if you were only sending PCM.

- Not in front of the DDC at the moment, but from memory the 1st LED in column 2 REFERENCE doesn't seem to light up on its own. If the two top LEDS in Column 2 are on, the source is either USB/PCM or USB/DoP.

 

Column 3. You are not up-sampling any inbound signal so these are all off

It's a little more complex when reading the manual again (page 19 paragraph Selecting <<USB..)

I need more study on this one!

 

Column 4. Just play the sample rate presented to the Mutec (1x)

 

Column 4 as explained in post #214 is the output of the rear panel terminals 1A & 1B. The last two LEDS (Columns 6 & 7) define the clock multipliers for the S/PDIF and AES3 outputs. If any are in the x1 row, there's no clock multiplication. So HQPlayer can convert whatever it likes, the MC-3+USB will follow. If you select a x2 or x4 for the S/PDIF or AES 3 outputs, (Column 6 & 7), the MC-3+USB will send out blank data. due to :

 

Page 21 the note on Multiplying Digital Audio Signals (last paragraph)

"When a digital audio input has been selected as reference and one or both multiplication factors are set higher than × 1, the MC-3+USB will only output black frame signals (AES3 and S/P-DIF signals without audio content) at the audio outputs. A sampling rate conversion of the incoming digital audio signal will not be carried out!"

 

[dtb300]

I will try This device can perform a LOT of functions!

 

Column 1. Using Internal Clock, and Re-clocking output (re-clock not up-sample).

The reclocking is for the input AND the output. (see page 19 in the manual (last paragraph)).

 

Column 2. You are using USB IN - either with PCM or DSD/DoP inbound - only the first LED would be lit if you were only sending PCM.

- Not in front of the DDC at the moment, but from memory the 1st LED in column 2 REFERENCE doesn't seem to light up on its own. If the two top LEDS in Column 2 are on, the source is either USB/PCM or USB/DoP.

 

Column 3. You are not up-sampling any inbound signal so these are all off

It's a little more complex when reading the manual again (page 19 paragraph Selecting <<USB..)

I need more study on this one!

 

Column 4. Just play the sample rate presented to the Mutec (1x)

 

Column 4 as explained in post #214 is the output of the rear panel terminals 1A & 1B. The last two LEDS (Columns 6 & 7) define the clock multipliers for the S/PDIF and AES3 outputs. If any are in the x1 row, there's no clock multiplication. So HQPlayer can convert whatever it likes, the MC-3+USB will follow. If you select a x2 or x4 for the S/PDIF or AES 3 outputs, (Column 6 & 7), the MC-3+USB will send out blank data. due to :

 

Page 21 the note on Multiplying Digital Audio Signals (last paragraph)

"When a digital audio input has been selected as reference and one or both multiplication factors are set higher than × 1, the MC-3+USB will only output black frame signals (AES3 and S/P-DIF signals without audio content) at the audio outputs. A sampling rate conversion of the incoming digital audio signal will not be carried out!"

 

Yeah I did the RTFM multiple times and still unsure - LOL That is why I asked about your picture and what the settings were doing.

 

Thanks...

[One and a half]

Yeah I did the RTFM multiple times and still unsure - LOL That is why I asked about your picture and what the settings were doing.

 

Thanks...

 

Yes, it's doing my head in. Maybe the manual needs to be split up to show (more) examples of:

 

DSD input

DoP treatment

USB PCM to S/PDIF & AES3 with/without reclocking

 

That's why for simplicity there's just the single DSD256 from HQ Player and a conversion inside the MC-3+USB to 174.6 PCM to the DAC. In time, the beast can be mastered, but at least we can't blow up anything. If there's a complete goof up, the DDC will shoot black data, no harm done.

[gldgate]

Yes, it's doing my head in. Maybe the manual needs to be split up to show (more) examples of:

 

DSD input

DoP treatment

USB PCM to S/PDIF & AES3 with/without reclocking

 

That's why for simplicity there's just the single DSD256 from HQ Player and a conversion inside the MC-3+USB to 174.6 PCM to the DAC. In time, the beast can be mastered, but at least we can't blow up anything. If there's a complete goof up, the DDC will shoot black data, no harm done.

 

Thanks for your info on the clocking multiplier LED's. I reread the manual (again) and since I'm using AES out, the only LED which should matter is the 4th column (corresponding to AES output) and it has 3 lights because it can only be reclocked up to 192kh.

Back for some more trial and error. I'm sure the manual is really clear to the pro audio guys but if they really are aiming this for the consumer audiophile market they may want to reorganize this section (slecting clock multipliers) of the manual a bit.

[dtb300]

Thanks for your info on the clocking multiplier LED's. I reread the manual (again) and since I'm using AES out, the only LED which should matter is the 4th column (corresponding to AES output) and it has 3 lights because it can only be reclocked up to 192kh.

I did follow using AES (out) the 4th set of lights is for it (1, 2, 4x).

 

Back for some more trial and error. I'm sure the manual is really clear to the pro audio guys but if they really are aiming this for the consumer audiophile market they may want to reorganize this section (selecting clock multipliers) of the manual a bit.[/Quote]

Agree.

 

And maybe some more examples from using it as just a cable converter (USB->choice), to up sampling to PCM and/or DSD.

 

The more you read it, the more things click, but like "One and a Half" stated, there is not much bad we can do.

[One and a half]

Back for some more trial and error. I'm sure the manual is really clear to the pro audio guys but if they really are aiming this for the consumer audiophile market they may want to reorganize this section (selecting clock multipliers) of the manual a bit.

 

Yes, the pro guys would know this backwards, but for us consumers, not so easy. Really wouldn't want to change anything in the device because then there's a real mess and you can alienate both camps. There's a difference between complex clever engineering that takes a while to understand, versus the complex unfriendly engineering that annoys....Amarra products comes to mind in that sentence, whatever you try nothing works consistently.

[juanitox]

how good is this USB/SPDIF reclocker with no oversampling 16/44 in and 16/44 out ?

[SwissBear]

how good is this USB/SPDIF reclocker with no oversampling 16/44 in and 16/44 out ?

Very good in my opinion. If you read through the thread, you will notice many positive reports about using the MC-3+ USB, without oversampling.

[One and a half]

how good is this USB/SPDIF reclocker with no oversampling 16/44 in and 16/44 out ?

 

Apart from DSD conversion to PCM which isn't really sample rate converting (format conversion), the Mutec doesn't up or down sample data. So if the source is 44.1PCM, the output is 44.1 PCM albeit with a re-clocked output. The player in the PC controls the sample rate to change.

If the DAC is capable of 96kHz maximum, the PC Player needs to set this as a limit, the MC-3+USB cannot do this. The function is much the same as any USB to S/PDIF converter, with the big plus of galvanic isolation of USB and re-clocking that output data to the dac.

 

When we are talking about higher clock rates, the purpose is to change the clock rate of the outgoing data, so that other devices like DAW tools can read the data in at different rates compared to the original input data. Not really applicable for audiophile use.

[juanitox]

thanks !very clear answer and advice in this jungle