Mutec MC-3+

[LowMidHigh]

13 minutes ago, zoltan said:

Functionally: on the one hand, they both reclock the signal and to that extent not much difference between them. On the other hand, the SOtM is USB in / USB out, the only combination that the MUTEC doesn't have. MUTEC is a complex switch between input and output formats, nothing like that on the SOtM which has only two USB output ports that in some setups - like mine - can be useful. 

Question to multiple MC3+USB users: how do you connect the units? I now use AES/EBU but just read the manual again and it says that balanced is achieved through a transformer, so even with two units, there are two balance transformers are in the signal path. Perhaps BNC is better? 

 

As far as I know, AES16 is always achieved through a coupled transformer. Reason being is a "sum-check" mechanism associated with balanced communication. 

 

Forgoing the AES16 won't eliminate the transformer's operation as all ports on the MC3+USB shot their output at the same time.

On the other hand, switching to SPDIF will incur the typical maladies associated with unbalanced communication. 

[Mjw21a]

I've been reading through this thread and there are some here using a 5vdc 3a external LPS..... If a 6.3vdc LPS were to be used, would it also need to be 3A? I'm just trying to research this as I'm looking to convert my MC3+USB to and external LPS as well.

 

I've been advised that once done it clears up and edginess to the sound which you only really notice by its absence. Sound right up my avenue. Removal of edginess = more natural, analog like sound to me.

 

Thanks in advance guys

[SwissBear]

9 hours ago, Mjw21a said:

I've been reading through this thread and there are some here using a 5vdc 3a external LPS..... If a 6.3vdc LPS were to be used, would it also need to be 3A? I'm just trying to research this as I'm looking to convert my MC3+USB to and external LPS as well.

 

I've been advised that once done it clears up and edginess to the sound which you only really notice by its absence. Sound right up my avenue. Removal of edginess = more natural, analog like sound to me.

 

Thanks in advance guys

 

Hi,

I made this transformation some years ago. To the best of my knowledge, the MC-3+USB does not need 3A. It is important to not go above the 6.2v which are requested, but you should be fine with less than 1A.

[Mjw21a]

31 minutes ago, SwissBear said:

 

Hi,

I made this transformation some years ago. To the best of my knowledge, the MC-3+USB does not need 3A. It is important to not go above the 6.2v which are requested, but you should be fine with less than 1A.

I've ended up ordering a TeraDak 6VDC 3A LPS. Should do nicely  :)

[R1200CL]

On 2/8/2021 at 1:01 PM, SwissBear said:

 

Then I would move to the MC-3+ USB if I were you :-)

Add to this that you will enjoy a coherent timing of your system when you have the external clock, as this will allow you to clock the EtherRegen and the MC-3+ USB with the same clock.

 

Be aware that SU-2 requires a 50 Ohm clock input. Both MC-3+ USB and EtherRegen require 75 Ohm clock input.

So far I’ve upgraded from SU-1 to SU-2 (USB to AES)

 

I see people here is cascading Mutec’s with success. I hope SU-2 AES out into a Mutec may have equal performance (or better). 

So I understand that I can reclock my AES using the Mutec. Is that something to consider ?

 

The Mutec has its own clock. Is the phase noise numbers known ?

 

Will adding a external clock with 50 ohm -110@1Hz / -138@10Hz rise the performance of the Mutec?

 

Can I use the Mutec as a 10Mhz clock out, and how many 10Mhz outputs is available?

 

I’m trying to figure out if I should purchase a second clock from AfterDark or a Mutec. Or maybe both 😀

Splitting clock signals from one clock to both EtherRegen and the SU-2 was an issue until I removed the Mini Circuits 50 ohm low pass filters. So I’m not certain applying a second clock in present chain will do much. 
Present clock configuration may brake some isolation. 

A better clock is very attempting as well, but extremely expensive. (Would think about dBc numbers around -118@1Hz / -143@10Hz). 

I only do PCM up to 192. (My DAC limitation). I’m using a Sonictransporter i5 with HQplayer embedded integrated. So everything is upsampled to 192. 
The AES interfaces of Mutec accepted 192 in and out ?

 

I’m happy to hear any suggestions people think how I can further upgrade my digital chain. 
 

Attached is my present configuration (power to Sonictransporter still in shipping).

I have a unused BG7TBL as well available that can be powered with LPS-1.2. 
 

 

[Pro Jules]

The Mutec MC3+ usb with the REF 10 SE120 mutec clock is a great combo. 

[R1200CL]

31 minutes ago, Pro Jules said:

The Mutec MC3+ usb with the REF 10 SE120 mutec clock is a great combo. 

He, he, no doubt. So is the price. I’m on a much lower budget. 

[Tokyokyoto]

It doesn’t appear from your diagram that you are using external psu for the SU-2.  I am using a Uptone 1.2 to power mine via a very short Ghent cable.  I think this may be great bang for buck.

[R1200CL]

23 minutes ago, Tokyokyoto said:

It doesn’t appear from your diagram that you are using external psu for the SU-2.  I am using a Uptone 1.2 to power mine via a very short Ghent cable.  I think this may be great bang for buck.

Hi

Yes, I don’t. I did using on my SU-1. To my knowledge GentAudio hasn’t made for SU-2 yet. I think my SU-2 has a fuse cage as well, which the SU-1 didn’t have, so Ghent gear won’t fit. 

However I may do something there as well. Is it still 5VDV ?

 

Also I bought parts for upgrading internal clock. I post link from other tread later. I’m looking for help soldering. 
 

Do you have any pictures?

[Tokyokyoto]

3 hours ago, R1200CL said:

Hi

Yes, I don’t. I did using on my SU-1. To my knowledge GentAudio hasn’t made for SU-2 yet. I think my SU-2 has a fuse cage as well, which the SU-1 didn’t have, so Ghent gear won’t fit. 

However I may do something there as well. Is it still 5VDV ?

 

Also I bought parts for upgrading internal clock. I post link from other tread later. I’m looking for help soldering. 
 

Do you have any pictures?

I don’t but I will snap a shot tomorrow and post.  The connector is the same as the su-1 and 5v dc.  Why not just plug your external clock into the su2?  There is a clock input 50 ohm.  With external psu you will bypass fuse cage etc….no soldering needed if you order this.  https://www.ghentaudio.com/part/dc99.html.  

[TubeLover]

Does anyone know how to get a Mutec unit serviced? I've written to them them twice with no reply at all. 

 

JC

[Tokyokyoto]

It’s kinda hard to photo without moving everything from the short clearance above but tried my best….

I leave the top of the SU-2 off so I can keep the Ghent cable as short as possible.  I skipped using the aluminum back plate that is included with the kit.

Learning to solder is VERY easy.  There are many utube  tutorials and you can but all supplies including some WBT silver solder for less than $100.00 on Amazon. This was my first attempt.  With the correct tools, easy peasy.

[R1200CL]

18 hours ago, R1200CL said:

post link from other tread later.

@Tokyokyoto

 

Here you can read about the SU-2 modification. 

 

 

[mourip]

On 8/7/2021 at 11:34 PM, TubeLover said:

Does anyone know how to get a Mutec unit serviced? I've written to them them twice with no reply at all. 

 

JC

 

Try contacting sonicus.net

 

Contact info on web page. They are the US distributor for Mutec.

[Pro Jules]

On 8/8/2021 at 4:34 AM, TubeLover said:

Does anyone know how to get a Mutec unit serviced? I've written to them them twice with no reply at all. 

 

JC

I forwarded a screen shot of your post to Christian @ Mutec. 
He's asked me to ask you to email again and he will take care of it personally. 
[email protected]

[TubeLover]

13 hours ago, Pro Jules said:

I forwarded a screen shot of your post to Christian @ Mutec. 
He's asked me to ask you to email again and he will take care of it personally. 
[email protected]

Thank you very much for your assistance with this.

 

JC

[Confused]

Another very interesting set of measurements from GoldenSound, see link below.

https://goldensound.audio/2021/10/05/mutec-mc3-usb-ddc-reclocker-measurements/

In summary, noise levels are very low indeed, which is good. Jitter via the BNC output is not so good. Jitter via AES/EBU output is much better, but falls some way short of other DDC's available now.

I thought the very decent noise level measurements were interesting, particularly as the Mutec uses a switch mode power supply. I know that a few owners have performed modifications to use a linear power supply, but looking at the measurements I would say that this is perhaps not too much to worry about.

Jitter performance via AES/EBU is reasonable, but it would appear that the Mutec is beaten in this regard by other DCC's, and indeed by the humble Pi2AES. I am not that surprised by this. I think that products of this type are in a very rapidly developing area of technology, and in these terms at least it is now a relatively old design, I recall that I first became aware of the device in early 2015, and even then it was based on the previous MC3+. So an almost seven year old product now, which typically for devices of this type would place it near the end of it's product cycle. During this time, audio clock performance has been steadily moving on. This could go some way towards explaining my own subjective observations. I found that the MC3+USB provided a very nice uplift in sound quality with my previous Devialet D800 Expert. With the later Pro model, I found using the MC3+USB sounded pretty much equivalent to Devialet's built in AIR streaming.

Although reading the GoldenSound article, it also looks like the Mutec's performance is held back a little by the some aspects of it's design, in terms of the very flexible functionality offered. The Mutec does have it's roots in the world of Pro audio, which in some regards may give it a disadvantage in comparison to some devices such as the Singxer which are focused purely on domestic audio.

Some interesting words about clock stacking too. It appears that this does not work, or at least this is what the measurements seem to be suggesting. Some rather negative comments regarding build quality too, which surprised me a little. Although my own MC3+USB has been in continuous use for over five years now and has worked flawlessly.

All of this also makes me wonder how the MC3+USB performs with an external clock, and indeed if a more domestic audio based DCC would perform better with something like the Mutec REF10? But that is another story entirely.

 

Many thanks to @GoldenOnefor another fascinating set of measurements, keep up the good work sir!

[afrancois]

12 hours ago, Confused said:

Another very interesting set of measurements from GoldenSound, see link below.

https://goldensound.audio/2021/10/05/mutec-mc3-usb-ddc-reclocker-measurements/

In summary, noise levels are very low indeed, which is good. Jitter via the BNC output is not so good. Jitter via AES/EBU output is much better, but falls some way short of other DDC's available now.

I thought the very decent noise level measurements were interesting, particularly as the Mutec uses a switch mode power supply. I know that a few owners have performed modifications to use a linear power supply, but looking at the measurements I would say that this is perhaps not too much to worry about.

Jitter performance via AES/EBU is reasonable, but it would appear that the Mutec is beaten in this regard by other DCC's, and indeed by the humble Pi2AES. I am not that surprised by this. I think that products of this type are in a very rapidly developing area of technology, and in these terms at least it is now a relatively old design, I recall that I first became aware of the device in early 2015, and even then it was based on the previous MC3+. So an almost seven year old product now, which typically for devices of this type would place it near the end of it's product cycle. During this time, audio clock performance has been steadily moving on. This could go some way towards explaining my own subjective observations. I found that the MC3+USB provided a very nice uplift in sound quality with my previous Devialet D800 Expert. With the later Pro model, I found using the MC3+USB sounded pretty much equivalent to Devialet's built in AIR streaming.

Although reading the GoldenSound article, it also looks like the Mutec's performance is held back a little by the some aspects of it's design, in terms of the very flexible functionality offered. The Mutec does have it's roots in the world of Pro audio, which in some regards may give it a disadvantage in comparison to some devices such as the Singxer which are focused purely on domestic audio.

Some interesting words about clock stacking too. It appears that this does not work, or at least this is what the measurements seem to be suggesting. Some rather negative comments regarding build quality too, which surprised me a little. Although my own MC3+USB has been in continuous use for over five years now and has worked flawlessly.

All of this also makes me wonder how the MC3+USB performs with an external clock, and indeed if a more domestic audio based DCC would perform better with something like the Mutec REF10? But that is another story entirely.

 

Many thanks to @GoldenOnefor another fascinating set of measurements, keep up the good work sir!

In my case all three MC3+ USB are connected to the REF 10. Two have the USB card removed and all three SMPS were replaced by a LPS 1.2. Only AES outputs are used. It has improved things remarkably with my what older Lyngdorf system. Proof of the stellar performance of my Millennium MKIV amplifier. This amplifier only takes digital inputs. According to Peter Lyngdorf, the MKIV is still the best “digital” amplifier ever made, even while it’s quite old now. Btw. one MC3+ USB is in front of the preamp and two between the preamp and power amp. The preamp has digital output! In my system only at the very last moment  this get converted to analog.

[zoltan]

7 hours ago, afrancois said:

In my case all three MC3+ USB are connected to the REF 10. Two have the USB card removed and all three SMPS were replaced by a LPS 1.2. Only AES outputs are used. It has improved things remarkably with my what older Lyngdorf system. Proof of the stellar performance of my Millennium MKIV amplifier. This amplifier only takes digital inputs. According to Peter Lyngdorf, the MKIV is still the best “digital” amplifier ever made, even while it’s quite old now. Btw. one MC3+ USB is in front of the preamp and two between the preamp and power amp. The preamp has digital output! In my system only at the very last moment  this get converted to analog.

In my system (and same at @Confused) the digital signal is converted to analogue even later. Devialet says that the amplification and D/A conversion are part of the same process but this is not what I want to say. 
Just like you, I have chained Mutec MC3+USB (only two), removed SMPS running on Uptone JS-2 + some extra LT3045 filters now. The USB card is also removed from the second unit, connected by AES/EBU. Both clocked with REF 10.
Significant performance improvement over one unit. A third one also brought some more benefits but not enough in my system to justify another 1000 euros. 
I read the review at Goldensound and commented there that I'm a little "worried" why he suggests against two or more Mutec units when he neither measured that set-up, nor listened to it. Forming such strong opinion without any base is very wrong and misleading in my opinion. 

[afrancois]

12 hours ago, zoltan said:

In my system (and same at @Confused) the digital signal is converted to analogue even later. Devialet says that the amplification and D/A conversion are part of the same process but this is not what I want to say. 
Just like you, I have chained Mutec MC3+USB (only two), removed SMPS running on Uptone JS-2 + some extra LT3045 filters now. The USB card is also removed from the second unit, connected by AES/EBU. Both clocked with REF 10.
Significant performance improvement over one unit. A third one also brought some more benefits but not enough in my system to justify another 1000 euros. 
I read the review at Goldensound and commented there that I'm a little "worried" why he suggests against two or more Mutec units when he neither measured that set-up, nor listened to it. Forming such strong opinion without any base is very wrong and misleading in my opinion. 

From what I understand from the Millennium topology is that the analog conversion is done just in front of the speaker binding posts. The only thing still in between is an analog low pass filter. I don't know how it's done in the Devialet, but later seems not possible. As you, I also have LT3045 filters in between the 7 volt output of the LPS1.2 and the MC3+ USB to bring back the voltage to 6 volts. I don't know exactly what it is, but a MC3+ USB modded this way sounds significantly better than the standard unit. One of the big disadvantages of the competing DDC units is that they mostly only have USB input (and sometimes coax SP/DIF) and not the required AES/EBU input for my case. An MC3+ with I2S would have been nice though.

[mourip]

I have a Ref10 for sale if anyone is interested. Contact me via PM.

[Mahler and Bach on Computer]

Regarding the daisy-chain of the multiple Mutec in series, there may be another possibility, which is to connect SoTM sMS200 ultra which is with a clock, with SoTm txB-USB ultra, then followed by Mutec USB 3+.  Do I expect to experience the SQ improvement?  Not questioning the SQ improvement experienced by many through daisy-chain configurations, I am trying to understand the logic foundations behind.  Being not in this field by professional training, I am lacking the capability to form any sounding hypothesis.  

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

On 10/9/2021 at 8:52 PM, afrancois said:

In my case all three MC3+ USB are connected to the REF 10. Two have the USB card removed and all three SMPS were replaced by a LPS 1.2. Only AES outputs are used. It has improved things remarkably with my what older Lyngdorf system. Proof of the stellar performance of my Millennium MKIV amplifier. This amplifier only takes digital inputs. According to Peter Lyngdorf, the MKIV is still the best “digital” amplifier ever made, even while it’s quite old now. Btw. one MC3+ USB is in front of the preamp and two between the preamp and power amp. The preamp has digital output! In my system only at the very last moment  this get converted to analog.

 

Reading the documentation of the Millénium amplifier below, one could be led to believe that 3 MC3+ and one Ref10 should not be needed for stellar performance... 😁

 

"Clocking of the PWM modulator is running in master mode at increased sampling

frequency which insures optimal performance in the audio band compared to other

implementations

• Ultra low phase noise / low jitter clock system extends the dynamic range and gives

extremely low jitter

• All digital signals on the PCB are noise optimized regarding transmission line load

to reduce interference to clock systems.

• New Asyncronous Sample Rate Converter with internal conversion rate always

clear of 1:1 conversion problems.

• Optimized low jitter clock system"

 

 

[afrancois]

20 minutes ago, hopkins said:

 

Reading the documentation of the Millénium amplifier below, one could be led to believe that 3 MC3+ and one Ref10 should not be needed for stellar performance... 😁

 

"Clocking of the PWM modulator is running in master mode at increased sampling

frequency which insures optimal performance in the audio band compared to other

implementations

• Ultra low phase noise / low jitter clock system extends the dynamic range and gives

extremely low jitter

• All digital signals on the PCB are noise optimized regarding transmission line load

to reduce interference to clock systems.

• New Asyncronous Sample Rate Converter with internal conversion rate always

clear of 1:1 conversion problems.

• Optimized low jitter clock system"

 

 

I think it’s only very recently that some DAC’s have become quasi immune to jitter. The Millennium being a power DAC. Almost all that claim to be immune really aren’t. If this would be the case then there would be no need for good streamers and other equipment. Use the cheapest streamer directly attached to the MKIV and be done with uit. This is clearly not the case. What I mean with the stellar performance is that the MKIV has the ability to clearly let you hear the improvements you make upstream. The MKIV isn’t holding back the optimizations.

[afrancois]

4 minutes ago, afrancois said:

I think it’s only very recently that some DAC’s have become quasi immune to jitter. The Millennium being a power DAC. Almost all that claim to be immune really aren’t. If this would be the case then there would be no need for good streamers and other equipment. Use the cheapest streamer directly attached to the MKIV and be done with uit. This is clearly not the case. What I mean with the stellar performance is that the MKIV has the ability to clearly let you hear the improvements you make upstream. The MKIV isn’t holding back the optimizations.

Peter Lyngdorf still speaks highly of the Millennium even while he sells new stuff.

 

around 2:30 mark in the video.

 

https://youtu.be/ycoy_0oBPrE