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For all you overboarders…

What is the longest chain you’ve tried? Has anyone given 4 units a shake?

 

Bring it on!

Stereo

[Genelec 1032C x 2 + 7360 x 2] <== [MC3+USB x 3 <-- REF10 SE120] <== [AERIS G2] <== [EtherRegen x 3]
Chain switchable to [Genelec 8331 x 2 + 7350]


Surround

[Genelec 1032C x 3 + 8431 x 2  + 7360 x 2] <== [MiniDSP U-DIO8] <== [Mac Mini] 

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35 minutes ago, hellrider77 said:

 

I have tried cascading three of them.

I am now using "only" two with the stock power supplies striped out (completely removed from the casing) powered by external linear power supplies each. 

There was greater gain by removing the stock PSUs and replacing them with linears than by adding additional unit in the chain. 

 

It actually depends on what you want, gains in detail and soundstage were minor, the biggest difference is in the timing/flow of music (closer to vinyl or reel to reel) and the body and energy of the instruments/notes. I am more of a music lover than an audiophile so the energy (even at lower volumes) and the pitch accuracy have the greatest importance on my scale (of course, in seeking those, the collateral result is an increase of holography and presence). 

The downside is that lesser masterings sound for what they are but the music still flows naturally and quite enjoy those also.

 

Same experience here. Removing the SPSU and powering my MC-3+ USB with a rail of my Paul Hynes led to a significant improvement. Up to the point where I only needed one device, which I used to transform the asynchronous USB to synchronous SPDIF. Further reclocking did not appear useful to my ears.

 

[EDIT} But I would like to add that a further game changer for me has been the move to HQPlayer, its upsampling to DSD 256 capabilities and the switch to a DAC fed in I2S with a Singxer SU-2 interface, the SU-2 bieng clocked by my REF-10. This is where my Mutec REF-10 SE120 really started to shine. But this is slightly out of the scope of your question :-).

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How do you do an A/B test on using an external power supply? 

 

Can you demo it in use / not in use quickly?

 

 

Hifi: Qobuz, Roon, Weiss 501, ADAM Audio A5X  + sub. Portable: iPhone 12 pro max, Qobuz, THX Onyx DAC, Empire Ears Nemesis iems. 

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4 hours ago, Pro Jules said:

How do you do an A/B test on using an external power supply? 

 

Can you demo it in use / not in use quickly?

 

 

 

Yes, until you remove the SPSU, which is soldered to the board. You can test like this and finalise the surgery afterwards.

I have posted pictures here a long time ago :-)

 

Before:

 

IMG_1860.thumb.jpeg.0699880abfe4ee4114931b110741d038.jpeg

 

 

After:

 

IMG_1892.thumb.jpeg.24798fb78e865fc53657d4b4fa22ec8c.jpeg

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I have tried four. The improvement when adding the third and fourth was less significant than adding the second one. Eventually, I ended up with two, and just as above, gutted of their switching power supply and fed by an Uptone Audio JS-2. 
Also, externally clocked by a Mutec Ref-10. 
I would consider the Singxer but my system doubles as home theatre (stereo only) and it's tremendous sound improvement for movies and concert videos also. Singxer only has USB input unlike the versatile Mutec. 

HQplayer - NAA - Devialet D-800 - YG Acoustics Carmel + dual ELAC sub-2090

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi,

I'm currently using an MC3+USB and considering purchasing a Mutec Ref 10.

Is this the best next purchase?  

Or is replacing the IFI for a SOtM USB ultra?  

Or adding another MC3+?

Thanks in advance for any feedback!
   
PC (MusicVault) w/ SOtM USB card using JC2 LPS > IFI Micro USB3.0 using JC2 LPS > Mutec MC3+USB  AES > DAC Lampi B7  [cables are Synergistic Research X-Ref USB and SR Galileo AES]

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1 hour ago, JM said:

Hi,

I'm currently using an MC3+USB and considering purchasing a Mutec Ref 10.

Is this the best next purchase?  

Or is replacing the IFI for a SOtM USB ultra?  

Or adding another MC3+?

Thanks in advance for any feedback!
   
PC (MusicVault) w/ SOtM USB card using JC2 LPS > IFI Micro USB3.0 using JC2 LPS > Mutec MC3+USB  AES > DAC Lampi B7  [cables are Synergistic Research X-Ref USB and SR Galileo AES]

 

This is not an easy one :-)

 

It pretty much depends on what you are most sensitive to. in my own experience, cleaning the electromagnetic noise, which is the function of the SOtM line of product, was improving the clarity, the transparency of the music. On the other side, using MC-3+USB, and later, REF-10, improved the analog presentation of music, the liveliness, the level of details, aso.

 

So what are you missing most ? If you have an SOtM USB card. correctly powered, you are already on the safe side re galvanic isolation. You might benefit from having a REF-10 to have an even better clocking of your AES/EBU flow.

 

But how does your DAC react to better clock signal ? Have you experienced it ? Do you have any opportunity to judge for yourself buying a REF-10 under the condition that it provides you with significant improvements, and being prepared to send it back and be refunded in case not. In case you chose to go for a REF-10, just keep in mind that you need a rather short 75 Ohm BNC connection between the MC-3+ and the REF-10. You can buy it at reasonable cost from Pasternack, looking for RG59 cable assemblies.

 

Was it helpful ?

 

[EDIT] Another option is to go for HQPlayer and its NAA architecture. You will be less sensitive to the electromagnetic noise, as the PC will send the music through Ethernet to a small computer, the NAA that can be cleanly powered. And Jussi Laako has developed some interesting technologies with his EC modulators to improve the analog presentation of music. A completely different option, but very complementary indeed. Juts look for HQPlayer on this forum and you will get a taste of what/how it does. :-)

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Mutec also make and can supply clock cables. 
 

I found the Ref10 120 SE 

 

stunning sounding. Seems to add front back depth and eerily, “height” also. 

Hifi: Qobuz, Roon, Weiss 501, ADAM Audio A5X  + sub. Portable: iPhone 12 pro max, Qobuz, THX Onyx DAC, Empire Ears Nemesis iems. 

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  • 2 months later...

I own a Mutec 3+ USB for three years, and found this thread recently and read from the beginning to the end, and have learned a few things, like the importance of LPS regarding the SQ.  Likely will do it myself some day.  I have some questions to see if any one has any insights here:

 

1). Internal clock speed.  What is it when we do internal reclock?  Is it a fixed value of 1GHz or can be changed by the clock-multipliers, likely in column 1 or column 2 under Clock Multipliers?
2) In the mode of internal reclock, is there any clock output from Item 1 of WCLK Out 1-2?  I recalled one person output that clock signal to Brooklyn DAC.  Wonder others have utilized these clock out.

3) Has anyone search the different options of USB cables?  I recalled reading @One and a half suggested SAEC USB over Curius USB.  Wonder anyone has other suggestions?

 

The digital configuration I have is NAS(Synology)-ASUS Router(AX5400)-Mac Mini(A1)-SOtm SMS-200 (NAA for HQ Player)-Mutec 3+ USB -(AES/EBU) - Metrum Onyx.  I should say Mutec 3+ USB brings the most significant (positive) impact on the entire audio system I have except the speaker, regardless of the price tag of the items. I am currently using Snake River Audio Boomslang (AES/EBU) after some intensive research with the help from The Cable Company.  Highly recommend this cable.

 

Very nice thread, a lot of work and valuable information for a wonderful product!

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2 hours ago, Pro Jules said:

I am not a $$$ cable fan 

 

But adding a Ref 10 120 SE will give you a sound upgrade! 

 

Chain another MC3+USB and you are in heaven. 

Stereo

[Genelec 1032C x 2 + 7360 x 2] <== [MC3+USB x 3 <-- REF10 SE120] <== [AERIS G2] <== [EtherRegen x 3]
Chain switchable to [Genelec 8331 x 2 + 7350]


Surround

[Genelec 1032C x 3 + 8431 x 2  + 7360 x 2] <== [MiniDSP U-DIO8] <== [Mac Mini] 

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I have two MC3+USB changed. I tried four with a friend, three seemed to be audible but the third one with much less benefit than the second. Both MC3+USB are clocked with a Mutec Ref 10 master clock and so are my SOtM SMS-200 ultra (HQPlayer NAA) and SOtM tx-USB ultra. The MC3+USBs run on Uptone Audio JS-1 linear power supply.  All DC going through two LT3045 panels.
Curious USB between SOtM txUSB ultra and the first MC3+USB (the other USB cable is stock) 
I think digital is as good as it gets but I'd be happy to listen to anybody's ideas for improvement, especially at little cost.

HQplayer - NAA - Devialet D-800 - YG Acoustics Carmel + dual ELAC sub-2090

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1 hour ago, zoltan said:

I have two MC3+USB changed. I tried four with a friend, three seemed to be audible but the third one with much less benefit than the second. Both MC3+USB are clocked with a Mutec Ref 10 master clock and so are my SOtM SMS-200 ultra (HQPlayer NAA) and SOtM tx-USB ultra. The MC3+USBs run on Uptone Audio JS-1 linear power supply.  All DC going through two LT3045 panels.
Curious USB between SOtM txUSB ultra and the first MC3+USB (the other USB cable is stock) 
I think digital is as good as it gets but I'd be happy to listen to anybody's ideas for improvement, especially at little cost.

 

That's exactly my experience with chaining MC3+USB. Two  is a great bang-for-the-buck, while the 3rd one only gives it a small boost. Moving up from Ref10 to Ref10 SE-120 makes a sweet difference. 

 

Don't care for fancy cables; most are expensive and not to spec, but a chain of ERs before my streamer has done wonders to the SQ. Powered by LPS and tethered to the REF10 SE-120. Recommenced.  

Stereo

[Genelec 1032C x 2 + 7360 x 2] <== [MC3+USB x 3 <-- REF10 SE120] <== [AERIS G2] <== [EtherRegen x 3]
Chain switchable to [Genelec 8331 x 2 + 7350]


Surround

[Genelec 1032C x 3 + 8431 x 2  + 7360 x 2] <== [MiniDSP U-DIO8] <== [Mac Mini] 

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1 hour ago, LowMidHigh said:

 

That's exactly my experience with chaining MC3+USB. Two  is a great bang-for-the-buck, while the 3rd one only gives it a small boost. Moving up from Ref10 to Ref10 SE-120 makes a sweet difference. 

 

Don't care for fancy cables; most are expensive and not to spec, but a chain of ERs before my streamer has done wonders to the SQ. Powered by LPS and tethered to the REF10 SE-120. Recommenced.  

There is no factory upgrade to SE-120. I don't think that selling the Ref 10 and buying a new SE-120 is a worthwhile investment in my system. As for cables, I think they do matter a lot but don't need 'fancy' ones as you call them. I found that clock cables make a huge difference too, they are transmitting a 10Mhz clock signal that has to be very accurate.
What is a "chain of ERs"? Don't know what ER stands for. (Not Emergency Room, I guess)  

HQplayer - NAA - Devialet D-800 - YG Acoustics Carmel + dual ELAC sub-2090

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13 minutes ago, zoltan said:

There is no factory upgrade to SE-120. I don't think that selling the Ref 10 and buying a new SE-120 is a worthwhile investment in my system. As for cables, I think they do matter a lot but don't need 'fancy' ones as you call them. I found that clock cables make a huge difference too, they are transmitting a 10Mhz clock signal that has to be very accurate.
What is a "chain of ERs"? Don't know what ER stands for. (Not Emergency Room, I guess)  

Let me start at the bottom.

ER =  UpTone EtherRegen. 

 

I agree, clock cables make a difference. From my research, the difference in performance lays in the attenuation across the range. The flatter the curve, the better. Not that many brands publish these figures, Belden and Canare being the exceptions. I've manage to extract that information from Furutech too. If you can live with a semi-rigid cable, Belden 4797 takes the cup. Canare LVS-77S is the best stranded core cable.

 

I'm quite certain you're mistaken about an upgrade path to the REF10 SE120. I paid for mine, shipped it out to Berlin and received it back with a fresh oscillator, an enclosed graph and a sticker at the bottom. I suggest you contact Mutec directly for prices and logistics. 

 

Stereo

[Genelec 1032C x 2 + 7360 x 2] <== [MC3+USB x 3 <-- REF10 SE120] <== [AERIS G2] <== [EtherRegen x 3]
Chain switchable to [Genelec 8331 x 2 + 7350]


Surround

[Genelec 1032C x 3 + 8431 x 2  + 7360 x 2] <== [MiniDSP U-DIO8] <== [Mac Mini] 

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Thanks, it's good to know that there is an upgrade option, I will write to Christian. I talked to him and his colleagues 3-4 years ago at the the Munich high-end show. He mentioned that they are working on a clock cable themselves but I have never seen it come out. I also use Canare 12G-SDI and Furutech for 75ohm and some other Japanese brand for the 50 ohm clock cables. I think the 12G-SDI is their lowest noise cable and can be bought terminated.  As for the ER, I will look into it. Now I use Acoustic Revive's LAN filters and also an optical bridge. 

 

HQplayer - NAA - Devialet D-800 - YG Acoustics Carmel + dual ELAC sub-2090

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Yes Mutec make their own clock cables now. They are very thick and stiff. 

Hifi: Qobuz, Roon, Weiss 501, ADAM Audio A5X  + sub. Portable: iPhone 12 pro max, Qobuz, THX Onyx DAC, Empire Ears Nemesis iems. 

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6 minutes ago, Pro Jules said:

Yes Mutec make their own clock cables now. They are very thick and stiff. 

 

The best performing clock cables are rigid cored. Only problem is they can cause havoc in one's rack, depending on the topology. 

Stereo

[Genelec 1032C x 2 + 7360 x 2] <== [MC3+USB x 3 <-- REF10 SE120] <== [AERIS G2] <== [EtherRegen x 3]
Chain switchable to [Genelec 8331 x 2 + 7350]


Surround

[Genelec 1032C x 3 + 8431 x 2  + 7360 x 2] <== [MiniDSP U-DIO8] <== [Mac Mini] 

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2 hours ago, Pro Jules said:

Yes Mutec make their own clock cables now. They are very thick and stiff. 

Can't see it in their product range, neither received an e-mail from them. I always do when they come up with something new. Speaking of which, apart from the new REF clock, not much else they have released in the last 5 years. I heard rumours years ago that they are working on a DAC. It must take a long time and will be the best DAC out there or will never happen (?)

HQplayer - NAA - Devialet D-800 - YG Acoustics Carmel + dual ELAC sub-2090

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57 minutes ago, zoltan said:

Can't see it in their product range, neither received an e-mail from them. I always do when they come up with something new. 

Regardless it is a fact.

 

Perhaps only for people purchasing a product? I recieved 2. I forget how much they were. Christian said it was "new" to accommodate customers stressing about what cable to use. 

Hifi: Qobuz, Roon, Weiss 501, ADAM Audio A5X  + sub. Portable: iPhone 12 pro max, Qobuz, THX Onyx DAC, Empire Ears Nemesis iems. 

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12 hours ago, zoltan said:

I have two MC3+USB changed. I tried four with a friend, three seemed to be audible but the third one with much less benefit than the second. Both MC3+USB are clocked with a Mutec Ref 10 master clock and so are my SOtM SMS-200 ultra (HQPlayer NAA) and SOtM tx-USB ultra. The MC3+USBs run on Uptone Audio JS-1 linear power supply.  All DC going through two LT3045 panels.
Curious USB between SOtM txUSB ultra and the first MC3+USB (the other USB cable is stock) 
I think digital is as good as it gets but I'd be happy to listen to anybody's ideas for improvement, especially at little cost.

Interesting to hear your comments of the functional difference between SOtM txUSB ultra and Mutec 3+ USB.  I always thought they play similar roles based on the limited readings.  Must have missed something big.  

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8 hours ago, Mahler and Bach on Computer said:

Interesting to hear your comments of the functional difference between SOtM txUSB ultra and Mutec 3+ USB.  I always thought they play similar roles based on the limited readings.  Must have missed something big.  

Functionally: on the one hand, they both reclock the signal and to that extent not much difference between them. On the other hand, the SOtM is USB in / USB out, the only combination that the MUTEC doesn't have. MUTEC is a complex switch between input and output formats, nothing like that on the SOtM which has only two USB output ports that in some setups - like mine - can be useful. 

Question to multiple MC3+USB users: how do you connect the units? I now use AES/EBU but just read the manual again and it says that balanced is achieved through a transformer, so even with two units, there are two balance transformers are in the signal path. Perhaps BNC is better? 

HQplayer - NAA - Devialet D-800 - YG Acoustics Carmel + dual ELAC sub-2090

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