Mutec MC-3+

[6aardvark9]

 

1 minute ago, m5sime said:

Clutching at straws - but has the optical cable worked for you before at those rates? I have not used my Mutec for a long time, so cannot recall what I got mine to in testing..

 

I can only think it's a problem related to the source... I stream from a MacBook to Mutec via USB, then optical out to a second Mutec, the SP/DIF out to DAC... I have no issues playing anything up to 24/192

The settings you have look OK

[Nikhil]

16 minutes ago, m5sime said:

Clutching at straws - but has the optical cable worked for you before at those rates? I have not used my Mutec for a long time, so cannot recall what I got mine to in testing..

 

 

Don't think this is the issue but will check.  Have two more cables coming in which I will use to check with.

 

 

.

[Nikhil]

13 minutes ago, 6aardvark9 said:

I can only think it's a problem related to the source... I stream from a MacBook to Mutec via USB, then optical out to a second Mutec, the SP/DIF out to DAC... I have no issues playing anything up to 24/192

The settings you have look OK

 

Thanks for the confirmation on the settings.  Will take a look at the OS settings and see if I can find something there.

 

 

.

 

[Nikhil]

On 11/20/2020 at 7:12 PM, m5sime said:

Are you using SPDIF out on Optical (which I recall does not support those sample rates?).

 

Wow!  Turns out that it was cable related.

I have borrowed a Van den Hul Digicoupler 75 ohms cable and 24/192 now plays without a hitch!

I also have a Lifatec glass optical cable on the way to try out as well - will see if that makes a difference.

 

Thank you everyone for your help.

 

 

.

 

 

 

[mitch751]

Recently I have bought a dCS Network Bridge, it has a word clock in, will the system benefit by connecting my Mutec MC3+USB (with Ref 10) ? if so, how will be the connection and the setting on MC3+ ?

 

Thanks

[SwissBear]

On 12/1/2020 at 2:40 AM, mitch751 said:

Recently I have bought a dCS Network Bridge, it has a word clock in, will the system benefit by connecting my Mutec MC3+USB (with Ref 10) ? if so, how will be the connection and the setting on MC3+ ?

 

Thanks

If I understand well, you would use your dCS Network Bridge as an interface to transform your digital files into a SPDIF flow. And you would need two word clock signals, one at 44.1 kHz and one at 48 kHz to provide high precision clock signal to the dCS Bridge. Is this correct ?

 

In this case, you would probably need one Ref-10 and 2 MC-3+ USB. The Ref-10 would provide a master clock signal to both MC-3+ USB. And each MC-3+ USB would be set in external clock mode and transform this 10 MHz signal into a clock signal at 44.1 kHz resp 48 KHz.

 

Hope this helps.

[Patatorz]

Hello i confirmed the solution of @SwissBear as i experienced it in my system 2 years ago : 2 MC3+ USB for 44.1 and 48kHz and one Mutec Ref10 (at this time) for the 10MHz reference clock. Lot of boxes that pushed me to invest in a dCS Rossini clock to remove the 2 MC3+. The experience has been improved moving to the Rossini clock and Ref10. 

Only a personal experience and solution proposed with the MC3+ is fully operational.

[Confused]

One thought, if you used Roon or similar to upsample everything fed to the Network Bridge to a constant rate, say 24/192, could you then get away with using one MC3+for just the 48kHz family of rates?  I presume this would work.

 

@Patatorz - I am curious.  I note the issues with using the Mutec kit with the Network Bridge, this is clear.  But what was the sound quality like with the Mutec kit, and any sound quality difference between using REF10 + Rossini versus REF10 + MC3+?

[Patatorz]

Hello, if you are upsampling everything to a unique frequeny (ex : 176,4KHz in order to transcode also the DSD to PCM or 192KHz) you need only one MC3+. 

Concerning my feedbacks on the MC3+ vs Rossini, it is always very personal and just testify about my experience. The biggest difference is around soundstage and "fluidity" improved with the Rossini + Ref 10. I also tested other reference clocks less expensive that were doing a great job in front of the Ref10. I understood that the new verison of the Ref10, the Ref10-SE120 is a great upgrade also.

[mitch751]

12 hours ago, SwissBear said:

If I understand well, you would use your dCS Network Bridge as an interface to transform your digital files into a SPDIF flow. And you would need two word clock signals, one at 44.1 kHz and one at 48 kHz to provide high precision clock signal to the dCS Bridge. Is this correct ?

 

In this case, you would probably need one Ref-10 and 2 MC-3+ USB. The Ref-10 would provide a master clock signal to both MC-3+ USB. And each MC-3+ USB would be set in external clock mode and transform this 10 MHz signal into a clock signal at 44.1 kHz resp 48 KHz.

 

Hope this helps.

Thank you, the current signal flow is from Mac mini > Switch > dCS NB > SPDIF > Mutec MC3+ > SPDIF > Dac ... should I still need to 2 MC3+ ?

[mitch751]

My current set up as follow :

 

Mac mini (Lan) > Switch (Lan) > dCS NB (SPDIF) > Mutec MC3+ USB (+Ref 10) SPDIF > Dac

 

Will be grateful if anyone can answer the following questions :

 

1. Will it benefits by connecting an extra w clock connection between MC3+ (W Clock out) and dCS NB (W Clock in) ?
2. If so, how do I need to set the mode of MC3+, External + Re-CLK ?, anything else ?
3. Should I use a pair of BNC cables or just one, if I set the Roon’s sampling conversion to 48 ?

 

Thank you

[Patatorz]

1/ not sure to understand what you are looking for. The world clock in 1 and 2 of the NB are used to be feed by a 44.1 or 48khz world clock. If you want both frequencies multiples you need 2 mc3+.

if you have only one mc3+ you need to upsample your signal to a single frequency and use the mc3+ with this frequency and multiples.

 

2/ I do not remember : the manual of the mc3+ is your friend page 21 (https://www.mutec-net.com/downloads/manuals/MUTEC_MC-3plusUSB_Manual_E_screen.pdf)

you should use re-clk with intern if you use the internal clock or re-clk + external if you are using a ref10 clock. 

 

3/ if you have only one frequency (48 and multiple) you need only one cable connected to the world clock in of the NB and another cable between the mc3+ and the ref10.

 

[mitch751]

38 minutes ago, Patatorz said:

1/ not sure to understand what you are looking for. The world clock in 1 and 2 of the NB are used to be feed by a 44.1 or 48khz world clock. If you want both frequencies multiples you need 2 mc3+.

if you have only one mc3+ you need to upsample your signal to a single frequency and use the mc3+ with this frequency and multiples.

 

2/ I do not remember : the manual of the mc3+ is your friend page 21 (https://www.mutec-net.com/downloads/manuals/MUTEC_MC-3plusUSB_Manual_E_screen.pdf)

you should use re-clk with intern if you use the internal clock or re-clk + external if you are using a ref10 clock. 

 

3/ if you have only one frequency (48 and multiple) you need only one cable connected to the world clock in of the NB and another cable between the mc3+ and the ref10.

 

Let me try later on, thank you

[mitch751]

46 minutes ago, Patatorz said:

1/ not sure to understand what you are looking for. The world clock in 1 and 2 of the NB are used to be feed by a 44.1 or 48khz world clock. If you want both frequencies multiples you need 2 mc3+.

if you have only one mc3+ you need to upsample your signal to a single frequency and use the mc3+ with this frequency and multiples.

 

2/ I do not remember : the manual of the mc3+ is your friend page 21 (https://www.mutec-net.com/downloads/manuals/MUTEC_MC-3plusUSB_Manual_E_screen.pdf)

you should use re-clk with intern if you use the internal clock or re-clk + external if you are using a ref10 clock. 

 

3/ if you have only one frequency (48 and multiple) you need only one cable connected to the world clock in of the NB and another cable between the mc3+ and the ref10.

 

One more question, so I use A or B from WCLK OUT 1?

[SwissBear]

Hi Mitch,

 

To the best of my knowledge:

- MC3+ USB has three functions, which it cannot perform at the same time. One is deriving either from its internal oscillator or from an external clock, a clean clock reference for 44.1 kHz or 48 kHz and multiples. The second one is to transform an asynchronous flow (USB) into a synchronous flow (SPDIF) and to apply a good quality reference clock to this flow. The third one is to reclock, ie to change the clock reference from an SPDIF input flow into a better clock signal.

All those 3 functions are provided with the reference of the internal oscillator or an external Master Clock (Ref-10). The second solution is the better.

- the dCS bridge is offering the possibility to transform an asynchronous flow (USB) or to send a file into a synchronous mode (SPDIF). To do that, it can use it's internal clock, or a world clock reference which can be provided by 2 Mutec devices, connected to the World Clock inputs.

 

The way you are proposing to use your MC-3+ USB is as a reclocker, because you are putting it between the dCS Bridge and your DAC. This way, you only need one boxe as the internal clock of the MC-3+ USB will switch from one basis frequency (44.1 kHz for instance) to the other (48 kHz in my example) when the music flow is changing...

 

But you are limiting yourself basically to PCM format (or DoP 64).

 

Does this make sense to you ?

[SwissBear]

To summarize, you have 2 options, which are visible in the attached drawing.

 

 

[mitch751]

18 hours ago, SwissBear said:

To summarize, you have 2 options, which are visible in the attached drawing.

 

 

thank you for your kind explanation, it is very clear to me now .. really appreciated 

[sunbear56]

Hi,

 

I was very grateful to SwissBear for providing these diagrams as the second one solved the same problem for me. However, it got me thinking and I've found that there's also a third way, also NOT including having to buy a second MC3+ USB. Start from the first diagram but ignore/'delete' the second MC3+ USB because it's not needed. Then:

1) set the sole MC3+ to 'reclock' and to read from its AES input; 

2) connect the second, unused AES output of the DcS bridge to the MC3+ AES input (i.e. assuming that only the first output is connected to your DAC; if you want full 384khz signal rates then this solution will not work); 

3) connect MC3+ wordclock output (I used 1A) to wordclock input 1 of DcS bridge. 

This may initially seem like a slightly demented 'closed loop' but it works because of the way that the MC3+ and DcS bridge behave when the data rate of the incoming signal changes, provided that the MC3+ is set to 'reclock'. You can check that it is working by looking at the DcS bridge control app where it shows incoming wordclock rate and whether or not it is locked. You do not need a particularly special AES lead from the DcS bridge to the MC3+ because its sole function is to 'flag' to the MC3+ what wordclock rate to output. The only downside is that the maximum data output rate from the DcS bridge becomes 192/64 since there is only one AES socket available for data output, the other being used to 'flag' the require wordclock rate to the MC3+. 

 

I've absolutely no idea if this approach will sound better or worse than direct re-clocking through the MC3+ USB as in SwissBear's second diagram. I was just intrigued to see if this third approach would work. The main point is that, given an external Ref-10 or Cybershaft (in my case) ref clock, either will sound vastly better than the DcS bridge alone! 

 

[SwissBear]

31 minutes ago, sunbear56 said:

Hi,

 

I was very grateful to SwissBear for providing these diagrams as the second one solved the same problem for me. However, it got me thinking and I've found that there's also a third way, also NOT including having to buy a second MC3+ USB. Start from the first diagram but ignore/'delete' the second MC3+ USB because it's not needed. Then:

1) set the sole MC3+ to 'reclock' and to read from its AES input; 

2) connect the second, unused AES output of the DcS bridge to the MC3+ AES input (i.e. assuming that only the first output is connected to your DAC; if you want full 384khz signal rates then this solution will not work); 

3) connect MC3+ wordclock output (I used 1A) to wordclock input 1 of DcS bridge. 

This may initially seem like a slightly demented 'closed loop' but it works because of the way that the MC3+ and DcS bridge behave when the data rate of the incoming signal changes, provided that the MC3+ is set to 'reclock'. You can check that it is working by looking at the DcS bridge control app where it shows incoming wordclock rate and whether or not it is locked. You do not need a particularly special AES lead from the DcS bridge to the MC3+ because its sole function is to 'flag' to the MC3+ what wordclock rate to output. The only downside is that the maximum data output rate from the DcS bridge becomes 192/64 since there is only one AES socket available for data output, the other being used to 'flag' the require wordclock rate to the MC3+. 

 

I've absolutely no idea if this approach will sound better or worse than direct re-clocking through the MC3+ USB as in SwissBear's second diagram. I was just intrigued to see if this third approach would work. The main point is that, given an external Ref-10 or Cybershaft (in my case) ref clock, either will sound vastly better than the DcS bridge alone! 

 

Great idea :-)

[Confused]

1 hour ago, sunbear56 said:

I've absolutely no idea if this approach will sound better or worse than direct re-clocking through the MC3+ USB as in SwissBear's second diagram. I was just intrigued to see if this third approach would work. The main point is that, given an external Ref-10 or Cybershaft (in my case) ref clock, either will sound vastly better than the DcS bridge alone! 

 

Are you planning to try this "both ways"?  I have no idea if it will sound better one way or another, but it would be interesting to know, assuming you can discern any audible differences between the two approaches.

[Pro Jules]

My path today

 

Qobuz - Auralic Aries G1 - USB out to MC3+USB that’s is externally clocked by Ref 10 SE120 - reclocked AES/EBU out into Grace Designs M903 - speakers 

 

i find the 10m clock gives the stereo spread an additional “height” dimension. It’s eerie and ‘ear tickling’. (Read good)

[R1200CL]

Would anyone know if the clock outputs on a MUTEC MC-3+ SMART CLOCK USB is properly isolated ?

 

I’m thinking of replacing my Singxer SU-1 converter with the MUTEC MC-3+ SMART CLOCK USB. Any thoughts if this is likely to be an upgrade ?

(Next step is external clock in). 

[SwissBear]

10 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

Would anyone know if the clock outputs on a MUTEC MC-3+ SMART CLOCK USB is properly isolated ?

 

Yes it is.

 

Quote

I’m thinking of replacing my Singxer SU-1 converter with the MUTEC MC-3+ SMART CLOCK USB. Any thoughts if this is likely to be an upgrade ?

(Next step is external clock in). 

 

What is the input of your DAC ? Are you planning to stay away from DSD and I2S inputs in the future ?

If you intend to stick to AES/EBU, MC3+ USB probably is an upgrade compared to SU-1.

If you plan to move to DSD, at resolutions exceeding DoP/DSD64 which AES/EBU can handle, and would like to enjoy HQPlayer with full functionality, or move to a DAC with an I2S input, a move to SU-2 would be wiser IMHO.

[R1200CL]

51 minutes ago, SwissBear said:

What is the input of your DAC ? Are you planning to stay away from DSD and I2S inputs in the future ?

AES/EBU and SPFDIF only. (Theta DAC), so yes will stay away. 
It is more the optimal clock input that’s attempting in addition to the needed USB to AES/EBU conversion. 
 

I use Roon with HQplayer embedded and opticalRendu. And EtherRegen 

[SwissBear]

37 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

AES/EBU and SPFDIF only. (Theta DAC), so yes will stay away. 
It is more the optimal clock input that’s attempting in addition to the needed USB to AES/EBU conversion. 
 

I use Roon with HQplayer embedded and opticalRendu. And EtherRegen 

 

Then I would move to the MC-3+ USB if I were you :-)

Add to this that you will enjoy a coherent timing of your system when you have the external clock, as this will allow you to clock the EtherRegen and the MC-3+ USB with the same clock.

 

Be aware that SU-2 requires a 50 Ohm clock input. Both MC-3+ USB and EtherRegen require 75 Ohm clock input.