Mutec MC-3+

[sligolad]

Acording to my experience, this should be done using some good wires as well, e.g. like this (Paul Hynes psu connected via silver/PTFE):

[ATTACH=CONFIG]22678[/ATTACH]

 

To my surprise the difference sonicwise was unexpected small.

Using a good isolation transformer in front of the MC-3+ did give a much bigger effect.

 

ymmv

Ulli

As Ulli stated adding an Intona before the Mutec made a much bigger difference.

In fact the Intona between audio PC and several USB DAC's tested at a group meeting at the weekend made a very significant improvement to all DAC's which everyone in the room was surprised by.

[SwissBear]

Me too! received my MC3+USB mid December. Very, very happy.

Hi Andy,

Your signature suggests that you have kept UpTone Audio Regen as well as Intona USB Isolator before the Mutec MC-3.

Have you tried to remove the Regen ? Is best SQ achieved with the three items ?

[andy nicholson]

Hi Andy,

Your signature suggests that you have kept UpTone Audio Regen as well as Intona USB Isolator before the Mutec MC-3.

Have you tried to remove the Regen ? Is best SQ achieved with the three items ?

 

Hi Swiss,

 

Yes. To my ears and with the Mutec feeding my Genelec 8531's (which have their own proprietary internal Dac's and Amplifiers) via DHLabs Silver Sonic 110 XLR's I found the SQ improved with each addition. The Uptone most noticeably when I added the SBooster Ultra power supply and Booster USB Isolator.

 

I have read reviews where the daisy-chaining of two (or more) Mutecs has been discussed positively:

 

Tik Tik Tik: Four audio engineers hash out the merits of Mutec's new MC-3+ Master Clock | Tape Op Magazine | Longform candid interviews with music producers and audio engineers covering mixing, mastering, recording and music production.

 

...but as I mentioned to another CA member recently - too much too soon for me at this point - I'm still enjoying where my system is currently too much!

[SwissBear]

I have read on Mutec's web site an interesting but already dated report about cascading multiple Cascading multiple MUTEC MC-3+ (MUTEC - Professional A/V and High-End Equipment - Up-To-Date). This report was stating that to a certain extent, you could improve the final SQ achieved by using multiple digital reclockers, the ones after the others.

 

Have some users been tempted by cascading the newer MUTEC MC-3+ USB in order to further increase SQ ?

[SwissBear]

Andy,

Thanks for your answer. Funny simultaneous reference to the Mutec's cascading :-)

[SwissBear]

Hi Julian,

I am quite new on this forum. I am interested in the MC-3+ USB. I have actually ordered and received one unit and find it incredibly useful and pleasant to use. I will not restate all what has been said/written about the benefits of your reclocker on the listening experience, but I certainly agree with that.

 

I have read that other users use Regen resp. Intona USB filters to respectively enhance the USB signal or galvanically isolate the DAC from the computer. If I am not mistaken, the Intona also performs a kind of reclocking right ?

I have also read under your name in another thread that the MC-3+ USB also performs a complete galvanic isolation.

 

Does the benefit of adding an Intona before the MC-3 result from the reclocking features of the Intona ?

 

I would like to understand your ideas about the benefits of adding Regen resp. Intona components in an installation which will, at some point, end with an AES/EBU connection between an MC-3+USB and a DAC. In terms of USB signal enhancement and galvanic isolation, wouldn't it be wiser to cascade one or two more MC-3+ USB in the same way than Fujak (http://www.head-fi.org/t/625793/audio-gd-master-7-discrete-fully-balanced-dac-pcm1704/1350#post_10282826).

 

How would you recommend to connect (AES/EBU, coax, aso) and to configure these additional devices ?

 

I admit that this question could sound naive as you are employed by Mutec, but I would like to read your take on this.

Also, in case the DAC has other inputs than AES/EBU (SPDIF or Toslink), would you favor another type of connection between your reclocker and the DAC ?

Thanks.

[ChrisG]

Hi Julian,

I am quite new on this forum. I am interested in the MC-3+ USB. I have actually ordered and received one unit and find it incredibly useful and pleasant to use. I will not restate all what has been said/written about the benefits of your reclocker on the listening experience, but I certainly agree with that.

 

I have read that other users use Regen resp. Intona USB filters to respectively enhance the USB signal or galvanically isolate the DAC from the computer. If I am not mistaken, the Intona also performs a kind of reclocking right ?

I have also read under your name in another thread that the MC-3+ USB also performs a complete galvanic isolation.

 

Does the benefit of adding an Intona before the MC-3 result from the reclocking features of the Intona ?

 

I would like to understand your ideas about the benefits of adding Regen resp. Intona components in an installation which will, at some point, end with an AES/EBU connection between an MC-3+USB and a DAC. In terms of USB signal enhancement and galvanic isolation, wouldn't it be wiser to cascade one or two more MC-3+ USB in the same way than Fujak (http://www.head-fi.org/t/625793/audio-gd-master-7-discrete-fully-balanced-dac-pcm1704/1350#post_10282826).

 

How would you recommend to connect (AES/EBU, coax, aso) and to configure these additional devices ?

 

I admit that this question could sound naive as you are employed by Mutec, but I would like to read your take on this.

Also, in case the DAC has other inputs than AES/EBU (SPDIF or Toslink), would you favor another type of connection between your reclocker and the DAC ?

Thanks.

 

While I'm not Julian, I thought I'd chime in here since I'm using a MC-3+USB with a REGEN. I had the REGEN first (using it with Curious Cables) and when I got the REGEN I continued to use it with the Mutec. I am also using AES/EBU out to my Schiit Yggdrasil. Works like a charm and sounds great.

 

I don't have an Intona, but according to their website, its purpose is to galvanically isolate the USB input and it also has an "impedance controlled high-speed circuit design" whether or not this means it matches the impedance of the DAC it is used with, it doesn't say, but the REGEN does impedance matching right at the DAC (if used with only a DAC) -- and if you are using a true 110ohm AES/EBU cable to the DAC, you've matched the impedance -- the REGEN also generates a new USB data signal and it cuts off the DAC from the PC's 5V current by generating its own for DACs that need it.

 

Since the MC3+USB galvanically isolates the USB input, I would say that the Intona really isn't needed. Whether or not the REGEN addeth or taketh away, I can't say because I haven't played around with it. What I will say is that adding the MC3+USB to my setup appeared to lower the noise floor and there are no digital artifacts (glare) at all.

 

So to answer your configuration question, my set up is PC ->REGEN -> MC3+USB -> DAC (using AES/EBU). And regarding the DAC having "other inputs" and which to use, I think this depends more on the DAC than the MC3+USB. I'm using it with AES/EBU to the DAC because the DAC's designer says he prefers that to USB.

 

Now I do have a new SOtm sMS-1000SQ Windows Edition server on the way and, in addition to the audiophile USB card, I also ordered it with AES/EBU digital out, so I will play with it to see which sounds better. FWIW, the dealer, AudioPhil, recommends using the AES/EBU instead of USB out of the sMS-1000SQ.

[SwissBear]

While I'm not Julian, I thought I'd chime in here since I'm using a MC-3+USB with a REGEN.

Thanks Chris for answering. Interesting to have your thoughts.

 

Tik Tik Tik: Four audio engineers hash out the merits of Mutec's new MC-3+ Master Clock | Tape Op Magazine | Longform candid interviews with music producers and audio engineers covering mixing, mastering, recording and music production.

Andy, this link is very interesting indeed. Full of material to dig into. Thanks again.

[ChrisG]

After posting yesterday I went on the Intona thread (haven't read through all of it yet) and it appears that it does re-clock using FPGA as well as use galvanic isolation and impedance match which I guess you already knew. Thanks for bearing with me, I guess I should have done a little more homework!

 

Given this, it may be the "all in one" solution for people wanting to use USB to get better sound and if I didn't already have the REGEN and MB3+USB (we need a shorter abbreviation!) that's where I would have started on my quest for better sound. Still might be interesting to give one a try, though...but I'm gonna live with my new streamer for a while first.

 

Speaking of the REGEN, I forgot to add in my original post that adding a linear power supply (in my case, the Uptone JS-2) did improve the impact of the REGEN.

[SwissBear]

Hi Chris,

Thanks for this complement of information.

I read a lot about Regen and Intona in this forum.

 

I gave Intona a trial, but I was actually disappointed as the SQ with Intona alone is far inferior than with Mutec MC-3+ USB alone. And unfortunately, I am affected by the syndrome where Intona+Mutec is not recognized well by my Mac (cannot see the connection, whatever the USB cables I chose). People at Intona have been of little help in this matter :-(.

 

As far as Regen is concerned, I read in depth a thread where the developers of Regen are explaining that they are engaged in the development of their own power supply in order to avoid inconvenient results obtained otherwise.

 

So for the time being, I will go the route which is the safest for me : stacking MC-3. In fact, as the price of MC-3 is acceptable (even more if you account for the fact that you have to buy fancy and expensive USB cables to make other Intona+Regen solutions work properly), the solution of stacking MC-3+ devices is much cheaper than other reclocking solutions I was considering. And this brings impressive improvements to my installation.

Thanks any way.

[julian.david]

Hi Swissbear,

 

Looks like Chris already answered most of your questions and also provided valuable insights into his experiences. Judging by your latest post, it also sounds like you already have a setup that you're pretty happy with. I'll touch on a couple of your questions nonetheless.

 

I have read that other users use Regen resp. Intona USB filters to respectively enhance the USB signal or galvanically isolate the DAC from the computer. If I am not mistaken, the Intona also performs a kind of reclocking right ?

I have also read under your name in another thread that the MC-3+ USB also performs a complete galvanic isolation.

Does the benefit of adding an Intona before the MC-3 result from the reclocking features of the Intona ?

 

I can't speak of the Intona product with particular confidence, but as far as the technical information provided is concerned there is no re-clocking on the Intona. The MUTEC MC-3+USB provides complete galvanic isolation and a very sophisticated re-clocking algorithm based on the many years of experience with lowest-jitter master clocks and jitter-removal. In terms of what sequence of products yields the best results, I think it's pretty safe that there are a lot of different opinions out there, which seems to indicate that all of this may very well depend on your individual setup, cables, and other parameters (such as the music you're listening to). What we've learned over the years, is that how noticeable the subtle (and not so subtle) differences of digital audio performance are, very much depends on the listening environment and how familiar (i.e. how trained) a listener is to spot the differences. So as you dive into this topic, you'll find that comparing signal chains and solutions becomes easier over time.

 

I would like to understand your ideas about the benefits of adding Regen resp. Intona components in an installation which will, at some point, end with an AES/EBU connection between an MC-3+USB and a DAC. In terms of USB signal enhancement and galvanic isolation, wouldn't it be wiser to cascade one or two more MC-3+ USB in the same way than Fujak (http://www.head-fi.org/t/625793/audio-gd-master-7-discrete-fully-balanced-dac-pcm1704/1350#post_10282826).

 

Just to be clear: there is no cascading of the USB isolator with the MUTEC MC-3+USB since it only has a USB input and no output. I also don't believe that cascading USB isolators with identical properties will yield much differences. This appears to be very different with the re-clocking as Fujak and many others have reported. So you could certainly build a cascade of MC-3+s with a MC-3+USB at the start of the chain being fed from the host computer/media player, but this would be a re-clocking cascade only. Adding a REGEN before the MC-3+USB may or may not influence things even more, but either way I think it's more likely that you'll hear the benefit of an added re-clocking stage rather than the added USB isolation properties. But I'll admit this is more of a guess than a statement I'd like to be quoted on ;-) I'd love to do some of my own listening tests with these different setups before further commenting on it.

 

Also, in case the DAC has other inputs than AES/EBU (SPDIF or Toslink), would you favor another type of connection between your reclocker and the DAC ?

 

I'd probably try AES/EBU first, but we've found that depending on the cables in use and the circuitry of the DAC, users will prefer a different route. It's really hard to make a general statement about that. Fortunately though, the MUTEC MC-3+ and MC-3+USB give you a range of output options to choose from and compare the results.

 

Hope this help!

 

Best regards,

Julian

[SwissBear]

Hi Julian,

 

Thank you for your time and for your answer. This was certainly useful.

 

I found another interesting synthesis after posting on another (german speaking) blog which is referenced above. Here is a Google Translate link to it : https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aktives-hoeren.de%2Fviewtopic.php%3Ff%3D23%26t%3D5902%26start%3D120%23p109172&edit-text=&act=url

 

Fujak, the guy behind the first tests in Mutec MC-3+ cascading, essentially reviews the MC-3+ USB and comes to the conclusions that :

- MC-3+ USB is so good, compared to MC-3+, that it hardly necessary to cascade multiple devices. One MC-3+ USB is enough (sorry for you Julian :-))

- the Regen (Uptone USB Rain in the Google Translation :-)) still bring additional though light improvements.

 

Thanks to all of you, Andy, Chris and Julian, for your kind help.

Best regards from Switzerland.

[MrSprout]

Hi all, can those who have the MC-3+USB please let me know if the device can also be used a straight spdif - spdif reclocker? Specifically I'm interested in switching between toslink, coax and USB inputs, with all going out via BNC (reclocked) to the DAC.

 

If that's possible, how do you switch between inputs? Does switching away from USB to another input cause any problems with the USB connection (ie does music stall or the program crash if music is still playing)?

 

Normally I just look at the pictures, but the Mutec has me defeated in this case!

 

If anyone is using it as a spdif reclocker, have you been able to compare it to another spdif reclocker such as the Theta TLC, Empirical SynchroMesh or W4S Remedy?

[SwissBear]

Yes that's absolutely possible. toslink, coax and USB have inputs on the MC-3+ USB.

To switch between the sources, you need to use the menu and the select buttons. Once you have set-up the device, if you want to just switch between sources, you just have to press on the menu button once, and then as many times as necessary on select to choose the appropriate source (scroll).

On the USB source (I am using Audirvana on Mac), changing source does not affect the behaviour of the program. When you change the destination on the Mac (I am using USB->Intona->DAC (via USB) or USB->Mutec->DAC (via AES), Audirvana just stops playing and you have to start playing again. That's all for me.

Hope this helps.

[MrSprout]

Thanks for the reply SwissBear. I'm not sure it passes the 'so simple my Granny could do it' test, but it's pro audio so that's par for the course... :-)

[ChrisG]

It's a lot easier in practice.

[earflappin]

So SwissBear, are you using both the Mutec and Intona? Or are you A/B'ing them to decide what is best/

 

Thanks.

[SwissBear]

So SwissBear, are you using both the Mutec and Intona? Or are you A/B'ing them to decide what is best/

Hi earflappin,

Still stuck in what seems to be a lack of compatibility between Intona and Mutec. When I try to chain them, my Mac Mini is not recognising the Mutec. May be a problem of cables. But most of people who succeeded to chain did that with a Regen and its own power supply in between. Daniel from Intona recently mentioned that he was trying to solve this issue.

For the time being, I am comparing the two options, with a clear preference on my side for the Mutec, which offers, at a higher price though, the clarity of sound of Intona, and an additional very impressive sound stage (deep, wide, and very accurate in terms of localization of instruments/voices) which I did not find elsewhere.

[SwissBear]

Hi all,

A short question related to upsampling. I observed that, on my system, the added value of the Mutec MC-3+ USB in the chain could be maximized by having the digital flow upsampled to the maximum, 192kHz, on the Mac, through Audirvana and its iZotope 64bits-SRC filter. My DAC is a Devialet with an identical maximum sampling frequency of 192kHz.

Is there a technical justification to this observation ? I guess yes and the answer might lie in the following article : SoundStage! Getting Technical Back-Issue Article (11/2003). My understanding is that upsampling on the Mac, and removing (at least significantly decreasing) jitter through the MC-3+ USB, produces a very clean flow directly into the DAC, which does not have to resample before transforming the digital signal to analog.

But I want to make sure. Any idea ?

At least, results are superb.

[jumper]

Sorry to throw in another question but I didnt' want to start another thread. Is the MC-3+ the same as the MC3+ USB excpept for the USB input? In other words are the SPDIF inputs, processing, output, etc on both models the same or is the MC3+ USB an improvement on all inputs?

[SwissBear]

Sorry to throw in another question but I didnt' want to start another thread. Is the MC-3+ the same as the MC3+ USB excpept for the USB input? In other words are the SPDIF inputs, processing, output, etc on both models the same or is the MC3+ USB an improvement on all inputs?

If you refer to this review made by a German medium (MUTEC - Professional A/V and High-End Equipment - Up-To-Date), "As the measurement diagrams below show, these efforts have certainly paid of: the MUTEC MC-3+USB not only significantly improves the jitter performance of D/A converters with the re-clocking mode, it also does so even more thoroughly (figure 3) than its already excellent sibling (figure 2).", the MC-3+ USB does much better than the MC-3+.

[jumper]

Well that is a very straightforward answer, thank you!

[gldgate]

Just pulled the trigger on this. Been using my Yggy with lower cost "Breeze" digital converter for AES connection (which I felt sounded better than straight Yggy). However, galvanic isolation in combination with reclocking for the price (less than a used Berkeley) sounded like too good a deal to pass up.

[SwissBear]

Just pulled the trigger on this.

I guess you won't regret it. Let us know your impressions when you get it.

[gldgate]

I guess you won't regret it. Let us know your impressions when you get it.

 

Will do. In addition to Yggy I also have a Sabre based DAC (Eastern Electric Supreme) so will try it out with both. Hoping to validate the positive impressions I've heard on this board (and others).