Mutec MC-3+

[johnVO]

As poster one and a half asked, are you using the top wclk connector (labeled 10 in Mutec manual)? Are you using a 50-ohm cable?

 

While my set up is different than yours I have gone Cybershaft>Mutec without issue so it should work.

 

Yes, i am using the top connector(10) and a 50 Ohm cable which was supplied by Cybershaft...I read in manual about a jumper which is inside mutec and turns off the termination of 10M input...Do you know anything about this?

[johnVO]

As poster one and a half asked, are you using the top wclk connector (labeled 10 in Mutec manual)? Are you using a 50-ohm cable?

 

While my set up is different than yours I have gone Cybershaft>Mutec without issue so it should work.

 

Thanks gldgate for the reply, am battling a bad head cold, so fault finding is kind of difficult at the moment. I think if the Mode is set to Extern only, the MC-3+USB just acts like a clock generator, seem to recall this when connecting a Tascam DA-3000 recorder.

 

According manufacturer's reply regarding my issue...

"Please identify setting as follows:

 

1.Push menu switch and move to the MODE area.

-->Push select switch set to EXTERNAL

2.Push menu switch and move to the REFERNCE area.

-->Push select switch set to 10.0M

[gldgate]

Post #884 of this post has a pix of how my settings look. External and Reclock. While I go Cyberclock>Antelope Liveclock>Mutec instead of direct to Mutec, the settings looked the same when I tried Cyberclock>Mutec. As far as jumper settings, I would give it a shot and see if it helps. I was able to get a signal lock without needing to adjust the default jumper setting.

[madaboutaudio]

@julian.david

 

In windows 10, control panel > sound > playback > mutec mc3+ smart clock usb > advanced:

 

where you can select the sampling rate and bit depth. Only 16bit has selection for 176400Hz. There is not option for 24bit 176400Hz.

 

Is this a mutec driver issue or a windows 10 issue?

[One and a half]

@julian.david

 

In windows 10, control panel > sound > playback > mutec mc3+ smart clock usb > advanced:

 

where you can select the sampling rate and bit depth. Only 16bit has selection for 176400Hz. There is not option for 24bit 176400Hz.

 

Is this a mutec driver issue or a windows 10 issue?

 

I have a feeling that the control panel list of resolutions apply to Wasapi and not the principal driver from ASIO. In that case it maybe an oversight or error in the reporting mechanism, worthwhile to clear up though.

[johnVO]

Post #884 of this post has a pix of how my settings look. External and Reclock. While I go Cyberclock>Antelope Liveclock>Mutec instead of direct to Mutec, the settings looked the same when I tried Cyberclock>Mutec. As far as jumper settings, I would give it a shot and see if it helps. I was able to get a signal lock without needing to adjust the default jumper setting.

 

If you set only EXTERNAL are you able to get a signal lock ? Does it lock only to 10M?

[sebackman]

Hi again,

 

Thank you for the reply’s a few posts above.

 

Ok, so MC-3+ gets me “half the way”. Many seem to post good feedback on the MC-3+ USB alone, but I’m a bit lost here again.

 

Is not the major contributor to digital artifacts the sample rate conversion “SRC” from 44,1kHz to whatever multiple of 8 that is desired?

 

Most music is 44,1kHz (Tidal, CD, Spotify and so on) and most DAC gear seems to run “computer style clock rates” internally, ie 48, 96, 192kHz (or higher), so SRC is inevitable at some instance in the chain.

 

It seems that most people use a MC-3+ USB direct from the computer to feed a DAC and set the computer to output a sample rate higher than 44,1kHz.

 

As far as I understand that means that the OS in the computer does the resampling which from what I can understand is a far more critical process than pure up-sampling/re-clocking.

 

No doubt having a word clock out from the MC-3+ helps a subsequent DAC if connected but the “damage” is already done in the computer?

 

Or is the SW sample rate converters in Windows >8 and/or Mac iOS so good that this has limited impact on the SQ?

 

Would not an external dedicated HW SRC do a better job?

 

If so is not the SRC (44,1 to 48 or multiples thereof) more critical than the asynchronous USB to SPDIF/AES/i2S conversion?

 

All input much appreciated.

 

Kind regards

//RoB

[SwissBear]

Hi RoB,

 

It seems that resampling, upsampling aso are complex operations which require a lot of computation power and that the PCs are in this field more appropriate to do the job.

 

Here is what is said on this subject by the developer of HQPlayer (Signalyst):

"All modern DACs employ oversampling and delta-sigma modulation, however the hardware implementations are more or less resource constrained. Higher quality oversampling and delta-sigma modulation can be done by utilizing vast mount of processing power available in modern PCs. Many AVRs also resample internally to 48, 96 or 192 kHz, with the HQPlayer, these can be fed at the native rate."

 

I would invite you to give a careful look at the different players, as each of them includes a significant variety of filters, convolution engines, aso which are very critical in this process. Among the best IMHO are JRiver and HQPlayer.

[julian.david]

I have a feeling that the control panel list of resolutions apply to Wasapi and not the principal driver from ASIO. In that case it maybe an oversight or error in the reporting mechanism, worthwhile to clear up though.

 

 

I'm going to check on that!

 

Julian

[SwissBear]

Hi Julian, Could you please update us on the Ref10 (high precision clock from Mutec) project ?

[julian.david]

Hi again,

 

Thank you for the reply’s a few posts above.

 

Ok, so MC-3+ gets me “half the way”. Many seem to post good feedback on the MC-3+ USB alone, but I’m a bit lost here again.

 

Is not the major contributor to digital artifacts the sample rate conversion “SRC” from 44,1kHz to whatever multiple of 8 that is desired?

 

Most music is 44,1kHz (Tidal, CD, Spotify and so on) and most DAC gear seems to run “computer style clock rates” internally, ie 48, 96, 192kHz (or higher), so SRC is inevitable at some instance in the chain.

 

It seems that most people use a MC-3+ USB direct from the computer to feed a DAC and set the computer to output a sample rate higher than 44,1kHz.

 

As far as I understand that means that the OS in the computer does the resampling which from what I can understand is a far more critical process than pure up-sampling/re-clocking.

 

No doubt having a word clock out from the MC-3+ helps a subsequent DAC if connected but the “damage” is already done in the computer?

 

Or is the SW sample rate converters in Windows >8 and/or Mac iOS so good that this has limited impact on the SQ?

 

Would not an external dedicated HW SRC do a better job?

 

If so is not the SRC (44,1 to 48 or multiples thereof) more critical than the asynchronous USB to SPDIF/AES/i2S conversion?

 

All input much appreciated.

 

Kind regards

//RoB

 

Hi there,

 

This may actually be an interesting topic for a forum poll : how many people prefer to play back at which ever sample rate the source material comes with and how many people prefer to upsample to a specific sample rate?

 

The MC-3+USB basically caters to the the former assumption/preference, but of course you can still upsample on the software side if that works better with a given DAC. I also agree with SwissBear that software based upsampling has indeed become very good. HQ player for example is really good at it. Integrating a HW sample rate converter in the MC-3+USB would certainly have required much more processing power, which would have increased the cost of the unit. So I feel like we opted for a solution that leaves you with all the flexibility but still doesn't become too bloated with features that only some will need.

 

Julian

[mourip]

Hi there,

 

This may actually be an interesting topic for a forum poll : how many people prefer to play back at which ever sample rate the source material comes with and how many people prefer to upsample to a specific sample rate?

 

The MC-3+USB basically caters to the the former assumption/preference, but of course you can still upsample on the software side if that works better with a given DAC. I also agree with SwissBear that software based upsampling has indeed become very good. HQ player for example is really good at it. Integrating a HW sample rate converter in the MC-3+USB would certainly have required much more processing power, which would have increased the cost of the unit. So I feel like we opted for a solution that leaves you with all the flexibility but still doesn't become too bloated with features that only some will need.

 

Julian

 

I guess that it all boils down to quality and cost. Which ever way does it best for a price that I can justify. It is all in the implementation.

 

Before I moved to REDnet I was fine with my Mutec USB just resampling the existing sample rate of my USB based system using JRMC as the player. I did not up-sample as I did not think that it sounded better. The Mutec gave me excellent sound for USB and I was happy or at least as happy as an audiophile can be for a few months.

 

Once I moved to REDnet and audio over IP the RN D16 equipment basically forced me to manually choose one sample rate at a time so I upsampled everything to 192K via JMRC. With the Mutec following the D16 as a resampler this gave me the best sound ever in my system ...even with upsampling. Redbook sounded wonderful. I also added an Antelope LiveClock external wordclock generator which I set to 192K. This also added a nice increase in SQ.

 

Eventually Focusrite(Rednet) did an update for my D16 which gave it sample rate following. I was excited however I have found it to be not yet ready for prime time and am now back living happily at 192K while I wait to get this sorted out. Basically I would like to be able to have my system up be able to selectively upsample rates below 192K "on the fly". Specifically I would like to upsample 44.1 to 176.4 and leave 192 alone. As near as I can figure this means doing it in software and letting the downstream equipment pass it on.

 

I am also a bit confused about how an external wordclock works. I can see how it works if I set it to 192K and all my files and equipment are set to 192K but how does it work if I am playing files at other rates? If I set my Antelope to 192K I can still play files at 44.1 however does this limit SQ?

 

The good news is that with my system set to 192K and using the Mutec to resample I am still getting the best SQ I have managed to attain...however there is always the next hill to climb!

[sebackman]

Hi,

 

Thank you for quick reply’s.

 

I thought that all DAC's operate on one basic clock rate in the actual DACchips which means that there will have to be SRC somewhere if the nativesample rate deviates from the actual DAC chip clock. -And it inevitable will atsome time as some native material is 44,1 some 48 and some 96kHz.

Just did some quickreading on HQPlayer and that sounds promising. -Especially the fact that thereis a way to play Tidal through it. It seems to have its own algorithms forfiltering and SRC where most other SW players seem to rely on the SW incorporatedin Windows. As from what I have read that also seems much better than a fewyears ago.

From your postabove I get the impression that SW SRC today is "close enough" or mayeven be better than stand-alone HW like par example MC-6?

-So with adecent computer the sheer CPU power and a good SW out weights purpose build HWwith far less “fire power”? How is this done in a studio environment?

If the SRC inthe computer is acceptable, then the MC-3+USB would be the only “box” neededand I can set the needed sample rate (for me 24/96kHz) in HQPlayer Or other)and be done?

I would needword clock to have the USB interface run in pace with my DSP but MC-3+ alreadyhas that.

Is that howmost people go about it?

Except for theword clock and USB, what is the difference between MC-1.2 and MC-3+USB?

Kind regards

//RoB

[SwissBear]

Well, if you really want to be on the safe side and avoid all the pollution which is generated by PCs and transferred to audio equipment via USB, you could rely on : PC -> RJ45 -> Sonore µ-Rendu (with a linear power supply) -> USB -> Mutec MC-3+USB -> DAC.

 

This would really be a close to optimal solution. I tested it personally and was enchanted.

 

The µ-Rendu has a mode which is compatible with HQPlayer (HQPlayer NAA) as well as a mode which is compatible with JRiver (UPnP). The former will probably be better as far as SQ is concerned, and can be interfaced with Roon, the latter will be more flexible in terms of browsing files, aso...

[julian.david]

-So with adecent computer the sheer CPU power and a good SW out weights purpose build HWwith far less “fire power”? How is this done in a studio environment?

 

It really depends on the kind of studio environement you're talking about. Mastering studios will work at whatever sampling rate the project has been delivered in and perform sampling rate conversions for the appropriate delivery formats and sample rates if necessary. Most engineers I know will do that with software. In music production studios, there's hardly ever the need for high-quality sample rate conversions unless somebody screws up ;-) You'd just pick a sample rate for the project and stick with that until the end. Broadcast studios on the other hand often need dedicated sample rate converters (like the MUTEc MC-6) for reliable conversion at the lowest possible latency. Sound quality is usually less of a concern here.

 

If the SRC inthe computer is acceptable, then the MC-3+USB would be the only “box” neededand I can set the needed sample rate (for me 24/96kHz) in HQPlayer Or other)and be done?

 

Exactly!

 

I would needword clock to have the USB interface run in pace with my DSP but MC-3+ alreadyhas that.

 

Is that howmost people go about it?

 

Except for theword clock and USB, what is the difference between MC-1.2 and MC-3+USB?

 

The MC-1.2 is strictly a USB interface without the sophisticated isolation and the re-clocking algorithms of the MC-3+USB. It's still a useful device, but the MC-3+USB is superior when it comes to sound quality.

 

Julian

[MrUnderhill]

..... you could rely on : PC -> RJ45 -> Sonore µ-Rendu (with a linear power supply) -> USB -> Mutec MC-3+USB -> DAC.

 

This would really be a close to optimal solution. I tested it personally and was enchanted.

 

This is pretty much my solution currently:

 

NAS -> RJ45 -> Sonore µ-Rendu (IFI) (data-only USB)-> Audio Breeze DU-U8 (AES)-> Mutec MC-3+USB (AES)-> Bel Canto 3.5vb DAC.

 

Why the Audio Breeze? It doesn't require power over USB. With the 9V IFI PSU the µ-Rendu generates a fair amount of heat, the full draw of the Mutec exacerbates this. I also find the data-only USB does seem to me to present a bit more high frequency information.

 

Be good if Mutec could remove the USB power draw - I assume there is a pro-audio requirement for this.

 

M

[SwissBear]

NAS -> RJ45 -> Sonore µ-Rendu (IFI) (data-only USB)-> Audio Breeze DU-U8 (AES)-> Mutec MC-3+USB (AES)-> Bel Canto 3.5vb DAC.

 

Why the Audio Breeze? It doesn't require power over USB. With the 9V IFI PSU the µ-Rendu generates a fair amount of heat, the full draw of the Mutec exacerbates this. I also find the data-only USB does seem to me to present a bit more high frequency information.

 

The µ-Rendu is supposed to be exempt of HF noise, as long as you feed it with an LPSU. I chose an HDPlex one, which is adjustable to 7V where the µ-Rendu sounds very well, and it also saves it for a longer term usage. If there is no HF noise here, why would I want to add an additional item, and more cables ?

 

What I would like from Mutec is the option to feed it with a LPSU (just an additional plug), which would be very useful for the audiophile market, and avoid dangerous tricks to suppress the standard switching PSU.

[MrUnderhill]

I have had an Sbosster 6v PSU on order for the best part of two months! Once that finally arrives I hope that the mR will generate far less heat and I will re-do my listening tests.

 

With respect to HF noise: I borrowed my daughters ears to be rid of expectation bias. She consistently preferred the data-only cable.

 

M

[Cormorant]

I've had a Mutec MC-3+ for about a week. It has been working very well with my Yggy and microRendu.

 

I woke up this morning and noticed the blue Lock (Main Ref) light is flashing and no workee no more.

 

I've got an email into Mutec customer support but I thought I'd see if anyone knows anything about this flashing blue lock light... thanks!

[tboooe]

I've had a Mutec MC-3+ for about a week. It has been working very well with my Yggy and microRendu.

 

I woke up this morning and noticed the blue Lock (Main Ref) light is flashing and no workee no more.

 

I've got an email into Mutec customer support but I thought I'd see if anyone knows anything about this flashing blue lock light... thanks!

 

Have you tried resetting everything? May just be a glitch.

[Cormorant]

Have you tried resetting everything? May just be a glitch.

I did. I tried a factory reset "by switching on the unit while pressing the MENU key simultaneously", per the manual. I also tried resetting/rebooting/power off and on everything else up the chain - the microRendu, HQPlayer, Roon. I also rebooted Windows 10 on the remote PC hosting the Roon and HQplayer software.

[Aleg]

It can also be the microrendu not / no longer giving out a decent and stable SPDIF signal causing the Mutec not being able to get a stable lock on the SPDIF audio signal.

[Cormorant]

Thanks Tboooe and Aleg for the debugging ideas.

 

Regarding:

It can also be the microrendu not / no longer giving out a decent and stable SPDIF signal causing the Mutec not being able to get a stable lock on the SPDIF audio signal.

 

The microRendu is USB out only, but I did think of a way to see if the microRendu or HQPlayer or Roon was involved, per your line of attack.

 

By the way, I've had the microRendu for 4 1/2 months and it has been completely bulletproof. I heart microRendu.

 

I plugged in a laptop computer directly via USB with the Mutec USB driver installed. Same problem. If I play sounds on the laptop it lights the Audio light on the Mutec and selected the 44.1 led, but no sound comes out, and the blue flashing Lock Main Ref never goes off.

 

I upgraded to the 1.10 firmware as soon as I got the device.

[MrUnderhill]

Hi C,

 

Whichever mR app you are using try going into the related app and save the settings, without changing anything. Sorted it for me.

 

M

[One and a half]

Thanks Tboooe and Aleg for the debugging ideas.

 

Regarding:

 

 

The microRendu is USB out only, but I did think of a way to see if the microRendu or HQPlayer or Roon was involved, per your line of attack.

 

By the way, I've had the microRendu for 4 1/2 months and it has been completely bulletproof. I heart microRendu.

 

I plugged in a laptop computer directly via USB with the Mutec USB driver installed. Same problem. If I play sounds on the laptop it lights the Audio light on the Mutec and selected the 44.1 led, but no sound comes out, and the blue flashing Lock Main Ref never goes off.

 

I upgraded to the 1.10 firmware as soon as I got the device.

 

Sorry to hear of the flashing blue light.

 

You have tried all the suggestions I would have gone through. There's one slim chance to try if haven't already, is to re-flash V1.0. If you can't receive the version information from the update utility, then the MC-3+USB needs to go back to where you bought it from. Mutec are very responsive, you should hear from them on the Monday. They will need the serial number which is on a label on the underside of the unit if not already advised.