Mutec MC-3+

[SwissBear]

However, if the Ref 10 does not cost an arm or leg...

Hi gldgate,

Last price info I received from my reseller about this product was slightly north of 3'000 EUR.

[gldgate]

Hi gldgate,

Last price info I received from my reseller about this product was slightly north of 3'000 EUR.

 

 

 

Thanks for the info. Out of my budget for the moment but will be interested to hear reports from others. I will say that 3000 Euros is a lot more affordable than some other 10M Clocks that are out there (ie. Antelope).

[iago]

Hi SwissBear,

 

the improvement is something I am still evaluating ;-)

 

With MC-3+ it was definitely there, with MC-3+USB I'm still struggling to pin-point differences between 'naked' USB-to-S/PDIF, re-clocked conversion and external reference. I think I will have to get used to the new device (some may call it burn-in) before I can make a more conclusive statement.

 

Which clock are you using as an external reference ? Did you notice any improvement compared to internal clock reclocking ?

 

 

The clock is a TEMEX LPFRS-01 salvaged from an old telco installation; I bought it second hand on ebay some years ago. The performance of this clock source is OK, but not up to modern standards. I had the chance to test Orbital Research POS some time ago, it was slightly better, but the improvement (for me, in my system) was not enough to justify the expenditure. For a new solution I would currently consider Rakon ROX3827T3.

[SwissBear]

Hi SwissBear,

 

the improvement is something I am still evaluating ;-)

 

With MC-3+ it was definitely there, with MC-3+USB I'm still struggling to pin-point differences between 'naked' USB-to-S/PDIF, re-clocked conversion and external reference. I think I will have to get used to the new device (some may call it burn-in) before I can make a more conclusive statement.

 

 

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]24417[/ATTACH]

 

The clock is a TEMEX LPFRS-01 salvaged from an old telco installation; I bought it second hand on ebay some years ago. The performance of this clock source is OK, but not up to modern standards. I had the chance to test Orbital Research POS some time ago, it was slightly better, but the improvement (for me, in my system) was not enough to justify the expenditure. For a new solution I would currently consider Rakon ROX3827T3.

Thanks iago for the detailed answer.

[accwai]

[...] The clock is a TEMEX LPFRS-01 salvaged from an old telco installation; I bought it second hand on ebay some years ago. The performance of this clock source is OK, but not up to modern standards. I had the chance to test Orbital Research POS some time ago, it was slightly better, but the improvement (for me, in my system) was not enough to justify the expenditure.

 

Interesting. How did you get your hands on the Orbital Research? Is it configured with 50R output? How is that terminated? What kind of power supply do you use? And if you don't mind, how much is the whole package?

[iago]

Interesting. How did you get your hands on the Orbital Research? Is it configured with 50R output? How is that terminated? What kind of power supply do you use? And if you don't mind, how much is the whole package?

 

The Orbital Research was configured for 50R termination, just as the Temex is. It was part of a package that I had the chance to evaluate in my system some while back. A 50R clock source is not compatible with the Mutec's input, this is why the Mutec MC-3+ had the option to remove internal termination and replace it with external one. I find no mention thereof in the MC-3+USB manual. The difference between proper termination and 50 into 75 Ohm was not great with Temex and MC-3+; but this seems to be very much source and destination dependent. I use a Hameg HM7042 to power various components that expect to be supplied by DC. It may not be audiophile, but it is incredibly fast and protected electronics from user errors in the past :-)

 

The whole package? The POS based solution (in a proper case with its own power supply) would have cost 1000 €, my current solution (looks more like a laboratory setup) was 100 $ for clock source, the power supply was already present.

 

If you build your own from available components (clock module, power supply, case, various connectors) you should calculate something between 1000 $ (excluding sales tax) and 1000 € (including sales tax).

[westy]

Has anyone used the Recovery with the Mutec?

I can't seem to get it to work.

[jumper]

My apologies if the following question is rehashing things a bit but I tend to go over this stuff in my head quite a bit. Is the Mutec MC-3+ USB any better suited to process via SPDIF vs USB? From what I've read it is all around superior to the standard MC-3+ but given a server that could be built with either SPDIF or USB output would the Mutec theoretically handle one better over the other?

 

I have several builds and solutions in mind for a new source so any opinions on this question would help steer me towards what type output to go with first given I'm just about 100% committed to also adding the MC-3+ USB. Thanks!

[westy]

My Intona, Recovery, and my Curious usb cables will not work with the Mutec MC-3+ USB.

Has anyone else experienced this?

[One and a half]

My apologies if the following question is rehashing things a bit but I tend to go over this stuff in my head quite a bit. Is the Mutec MC-3+ USB any better suited to process via SPDIF vs USB? From what I've read it is all around superior to the standard MC-3+ but given a server that could be built with either SPDIF or USB output would the Mutec theoretically handle one better over the other?

 

I have several builds and solutions in mind for a new source so any opinions on this question would help steer me towards what type output to go with first given I'm just about 100% committed to also adding the MC-3+ USB. Thanks!

 

Well, S/PDIF, the unbalanced coax (RCA) kind is behind the eight ball compared with it's cousin in the nearly identical protocol AES3. I found S/PDIF is okaayyy, AES3 is cleaner signal. S/PDIF with a BNC is better, as advised by Mutec. How much better...dunno.

 

With the MC-3+USB, you can use USB certainly. There is the galvanic isolation, critical for USB, plus DSD up to 256 which is a plus. Also use plain USB 2.0. or more to the point UAC 2.0 (USB Audio Class 2.0).

 

Now, as I find out the hard way, USB is OK, provided:

 

1. The AC cable from the Mutec, source & DAC are from the same AC distributor or conditioner. Don't ever use AC power from a different power outlet for any of the components listed, even if it's a foot away.

What happens is there's a differential earth (ground) potentials between the Mutec, source and DAC, and "theory" is that the USB cable carries the can of that imbalance, no different to standard audio RCA interconnects. There is the classic ground loop forming.

If you put in a different cable with different geometry, it changes the SQ, generally not for the better, but may shift the trouble spots to other frequencies.

 

2. USB treatments like the Intona is only partially effective, because the imbalance current is still in the signal superimposed. It would have to be a very clever filter to remove this rubbish.

 

I hope to publish some scope waveforms in the near future to find out where all these messy signals end up.

 

3. Bits are not bits, USB and S/PDIF are just as susceptible to ground loops just like any audible ground loop.

[devs]

My Intona, Recovery, and my Curious usb cables will not work with the Mutec MC-3+ USB.

Has anyone else experienced this?

 

You and I discussed this a few days ago... http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/mutec-mc-3-a-17300/index11.html#post514105

 

Intona has a fix for the Mutec since early February (I contacted them this week), older units (mine is from early January) require a firmware update. Best to contact Intona about it.

 

Don't know about the W4S.

 

But please specify how you've hooked it all up if you'd like people to give meaningful replies.

[One and a half]

The advice from SwissBear is very good, a stacked MC-3+USB has marked audible benefits. Received 2nd Mutec yesterday.

 

Far clearer presentation for one, or reduced noise floor, take your pick. As days go on, will report a little more. If the link between the two Mutecs was BNC S/PDIF, the presentation lost some of its bite, wasn't as good as Starlight (the entry level) AES3 cable.

 

If a Logitech Z-2300 THX speaker system can sound good, it must be getting a very good signal

 

The AC supply cabling is quite critical, see above post to jumper.

[tne]

My Intona, Recovery, and my Curious usb cables will not work with the Mutec MC-3+ USB.

Has anyone else experienced this?

 

Awaiting delivery of my MUTEC3+ USB now, so no current experience, but my question to you is does it work if you remove the Intona and/or the Recovery? My approach would be to add each to the MUTEC, then add both to see if things are working and how they sound. You may even find that you can reduce the number of components in the USB signal path with no negative effect (and perhaps a positive one). I understand your desire to use them, but their removal may prove diagnostic as to where the problem lies.

 

I have a REGEN, not an Intona or a Recovery, but when I add the Mutec for initial listening, it will not use the REGEN, which I will experiment with later in regard to benefits to sound quality.

[gldgate]

Awaiting delivery of my MUTEC3+ USB now, so no current experience, but my question to you is does it work if you remove the Intona and/or the Recovery? My approach would be to add each to the MUTEC, then add both to see if things are working and how they sound. You may even find that you can reduce the number of components in the USB signal path with no negative effect (and perhaps a positive one). I understand your desire to use them, but their removal may prove diagnostic as to where the problem lies.

 

I have a REGEN, not an Intona or a Recovery, but when I add the Mutec for initial listening, it will not use the REGEN, which I will experiment with later in regard to benefits to sound quality.

 

For those with W4S Recovery you also may want to check back with Wyred. It looks they have a new (Rev B) version that may address some compatibility issues. Looks like new version is 6v-9v where as Rev A is 6.5v - 12v.

 

I have been running Mutec MC-3+ USB & Schiit Yggy successfully with Regen/Curious cable combo. After A/B comparison I don't think the Regen is needed in my system. My system also has a SOTM USB card and is optically isolated so it may simply be an issue of overkill. Sometimes one less doodad can be a good thing.

[One and a half]

My system also has a SOTM USB card and is optically isolated so it may simply be an issue of overkill. Sometimes one less doodad can be a good thing.

 

Is that the SOTM USB PCIe board?

[gldgate]

Is that the SOTM USB PCIe board?

 

Yes.

[westy]

I have ordered another Intona with the new firmware so hopefully that one will work with the Mutec.

 

I also have contacted Wyred about the newer Recovery and waiting for their response.

 

Here is my connections;

I am only using the usb input and the XLR out on the Mutec.

I was trying to connect the Intona or the Recovery via USB from my Bryston BDP-2 using Curious cables going into the Mutec.

None of that worked.

Going straight from the Bryston BDP-2 via usb to the Mutec will work. But, only the very cheap cables will work.

The XLR out from the Mutec goes to my PS Audio Dac XLR input.

I am using a 4TB WD external hardrive that is connected to the back of the Bryston.

[SwissBear]

Well, S/PDIF, the unbalanced coax (RCA) kind is behind the eight ball compared with it's cousin in the nearly identical protocol AES3. I found S/PDIF is okaayyy, AES3 is cleaner signal. S/PDIF with a BNC is better, as advised by Mutec. How much better...dunno.

Hi One and a half,

My experience is in accordance with your views on this. I tried RCA with good cables to my DAC, which unfortunately does not have BNC, and was disappointed, especially because of a reduction of the benefits of the Mutecs in terms of spatiality. So I came back to AES/EBU.

[One and a half]

I have ordered another Intona with the new firmware so hopefully that one will work with the Mutec.

 

I also have contacted Wyred about the newer Recovery and waiting for their response.

 

Here is my connections;

I am only using the usb input and the XLR out on the Mutec.

I was trying to connect the Intona or the Recovery via USB from my Bryston BDP-2 using Curious cables going into the Mutec.

None of that worked.

Going straight from the Bryston BDP-2 via usb to the Mutec will work. But, only the very cheap cables will work.

The XLR out from the Mutec goes to my PS Audio Dac XLR input.

I am using a 4TB WD external hardrive that is connected to the back of the Bryston.

 

There are few things going on here.

 

Recovery : There is that update where the power supply range is increased. Until you find out from the manufacturer on that one, best leave the Recovery aside.

 

Intona : Tonight was scope night The joys of someone else working on your problem. In some instances the Intona didn't connect with the Curious cables and it did with cheap cables. Why. A cable is only a wire right? Could also be there's not enough power from the Bryston to drive the Intona.

 

Here's a scope waveform of a cheap ($2.50) cable direct from PC to the Mutec measured to AC ground.

 

The ppV is 698mV or 247mV rms. This waveform is 50Hz (for my country) hum, yes hum introduced I bet by a Lenovo SMPS for a PC.

 

Let's look at the waveform using an Oyaide Continental 5s USB cable on the PC side of the Intona (std 1000V).

 

The ppV is about the same as for the cheap cable

 

On the Load side of the Intona now to the Mutec (where it really counts).

 

4.88Vpp 1.725Vrms (no mV, these are volts of hum). So the hum is active on the shield of the USB cable because there's no way back to the source at the PC, since the Intona blocks it.

 

I had one look at this and went yikes. No wonder the Intona didn't make much of a difference. In the end I used Nordost Blue Heaven USB cable, since it's induced hum value was the lowest of the USB cables on hand. The Curious cable has one end connected to the shield and it's not continuous creating difficulties.

 

As advised for jumper, plug, in your case, Bryston, WD power supply, Mutec, and the Directstream into the ONE power strip.

Plug the Bryston in first rank after the power cord, Mutec 2nd, Directstream 3rd, WD 4th.

This keeps the ground connections the same potential and reduces the hum. If you can find a linear supply for the WD drive the better. They use 12V at 2A something.

[westy]

One and half,

 

Thanks for your additional efforts and comments.

I have all of the devices connected to a PS Audio P-10 power supply on a dedicated circuit. The WD is powered by a linear power supply that is also plugged into the PS P-10.

It is odd that only the cheap cables will connect but more expensive ones will not.

 

I should have the newer version of the Intona on Monday so I'll see how that one performs with the Mutec. My supplier of the Recovery had no clue about the (Rev B) mentioned in this thread but will look into it.

 

I have noticed drop outs while using my Oppo Blu Ray player. This is caused by the Mutec losing lock occasionally. Rather annoying.

I am using a Digital RCA cable with a BNC adapter at the Mutec.

Any ideas why this is happening?

[One and a half]

One and half,

 

Thanks for your additional efforts and comments.

I have all of the devices connected to a PS Audio P-10 power supply on a dedicated circuit. The WD is powered by a linear power supply that is also plugged into the PS P-10.

It is odd that only the cheap cables will connect but more expensive ones will not.

 

I should have the newer version of the Intona on Monday so I'll see how that one performs with the Mutec. My supplier of the Recovery had no clue about the (Rev B) mentioned in this thread but will look into it.

 

I have noticed drop outs while using my Oppo Blu Ray player. This is caused by the Mutec losing lock occasionally. Rather annoying.

I am using a Digital RCA cable with a BNC adapter at the Mutec.

Any ideas why this is happening?

 

Great! from the Ac power side, there's nothing else to do Good luck with the Intona and the new revision. Why the cheap cables work indeed. Perhaps they are built to spec is one reason. Without seeing what the signals are doing, we can only work around collected information on behaviour. I wish there was a more positive answer for you.

 

Even if you use a computer to temporarily feed the Mutec with USB, some thing may come to light.

 

Onto the droputs from the Oppo BD player. Which Oppo, they have a few these days. How regular are the dropouts?

 

If the RCA coax is used on the Oppo, it would be plugged into the BNC S/PDIF terminal on the Mutec (item 9 on the rear panel). Apart for the settings in the Oppo like Bitstream PCM audio , can't think of much else in the setups in the Oppo.

S/PDIF is pretty good as far as stability goes, it's there or it's not. The AUDIO LED lights up when there's an AES3 or S/PDIF input is used as well as the blue LOCK LED.

[MisterRogers]

Hi folks,

just to give you a quick update: I'm currently on vacation until the beginning of March, but I will take the time to answer the open questions regarding the MUTEC products and their application when I get back. So please accept my apologies for my silence. Your comments, reports, pictures, and questions do not go unnoticed!

 

Best regards,

Julian

 

Hey Julian - when you get back, would appreciate an update on the new firmware you mentioned for the 3+USB supporting auto detection of DOP / PCM.

[westy]

One and half,

 

I have the Oppo 95 and it has been modded. I have found that by using a Chinese adapter, I can take the HDMI master audio out and convert that to a coaxial output. That output used to go to my Tascam HIRez recorder. This enabled me to copy my SACD, DVD-A and Blu Ray disc's digitally 24/ 192 or 24/96 to a SD card. With that SD card added to my computer, I then added the new digitally recording to my external hardrive.

 

Well, once I got the Mutec, I tried to take that same HIRez signal from as stated above to the Mutec for Reclocking and etc before it goes to the Tascam for recording. The music plays fine but I have reoccurring audio dropouts every few minutes and then that gets embedded into my recording.

[One and a half]

One and half,

 

I have the Oppo 95 and it has been modded. I have found that by using a Chinese adapter, I can take the HDMI master audio out and convert that to a coaxial output. That output used to go to my Tascam HIRez recorder. This enabled me to copy my SACD, DVD-A and Blu Ray disc's digitally 24/ 192 or 24/96 to a SD card. With that SD card added to my computer, I then added the new digitally recording to my external hardrive.

 

Well, once I got the Mutec, I tried to take that same HIRez signal from as stated above to the Mutec for Reclocking and etc before it goes to the Tascam for recording. The music plays fine but I have reoccurring audio dropouts every few minutes and then that gets embedded into my recording.

 

That's a great application for re-clocking there. If it's the Tascam with a WordClock input, you could use the Mutec's clock outputs...another time.

 

I have the Oppo 95 as well, not used in the main system for a while now and am only aware of the built in RCA output, so not totally au fait with the Chinese adapter, sorry and don't know its limitations. If the recordings were working before to the Tascam, then perhaps a tech support message on the Mutec website may be in order.

[SwissBear]

I have noticed drop outs while using my Oppo Blu Ray player. This is caused by the Mutec losing lock occasionally. Rather annoying.

I am using a Digital RCA cable with a BNC adapter at the Mutec.

Any ideas why this is happening?

Hi westy,

Using same configuration (Oppo 103D). Did not notice any drop outs with 16/44.1.

Which format are you trying to play on the Oppo ? Are you aware of the fact that, due to some bandwidth and/or copyright limitations, Oppo will not play some high-res audio files to the S-P/DIF (coax or optical). These files are either converted to PCM or should be played through HDMI.