Mutec MC-3+

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I wonder if anyone has a similar setup:

 

Nativ Vita -> Mutec 3+ -> Active speakers 

(AES all throughout).

 

Does the Mutec contribute anything to the sound? I understand newer devices wouldn’t benefit much from re-clocking. 

 

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7 hours ago, mourip said:

If you get some cash burning a hole in your pocket consider the REF10 to clock the M3USB. They allow you a trial period and the difference is immediate. You get a more refined sound. Incremental but obvious...

Cybershaft is a very good option too, for half or less the price. 

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8 minutes ago, mourip said:

Good point. They have been mentioned before as a good candidate.I would do a bit of thread searching before ordering one to see if anyone else with an M3USB had used one. The reason being that they come from Japan and so might not have a trial period or at least it could be expensive to ship it back. 

Disclosure: I'm not affiliate with Cybershaft. 

 

They'll accept returns. Shipping International Priority is around $70.

 

I riffled through many threads: Unanimous satisfaction. The OPT13 or 14 are a level below REF10, but $2,100 cheaper. The difference in sound isn't day and night though. A marginal improvement. 

 

You can purchase either the OP15 or 16 and match REF10 performance, still for $1,500 less. Naturally, you can go OP higher, but a reviewer describes the 17 as too analytical and preferes the 14.

 

The REF10 has 8 outputs though. 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, One and a half said:

I thought the Cybershaft clocks were discontinued.

 

Temporarily. They have retired some product lines and introduced new ones--with 50/75ohm switch, more OP grades and a clock distributor.  A slightly fresh look too. 

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2 hours ago, julian.david said:

 

Hi there, 

While it’s true that some of Cybershaft’s latest 10 MHz clocks match the phase noise performance of the REF 10 at 1 Hz offset at a lower price, I think it’s also worth pointing out that these OCXOs are used, recycled oscillators with potentially questionable long-term performance. This is no secret as Cybershaft themselves note it in the fine print of these product pages. We’ve been doing quite a bit of research in this field at MUTEC prior to the launch of the REF 10. Our main developer has inside knowledge of the second-hand oscillator market and how these oscillators are handled in the process. So for us at MUTEC there were and still are a lot of reasons why we stay away from these predominantly Chinese-sourced recycled OCXOs.  

 

Sure, there’s a 2-year warranty but a performance decay and functional unreliability may easily slip in unnoticed over time. Buying a REF 10 guarantees a brand-new, carefully tested German-made OCXO that will provide excellent performance for many years to come. I personally believe there’s a real value in having the peace of mind that your newly bought equipment performs at its peak. But ultimately the great thing about competition is that everybody can make those decision on their own depending on their preference and budget.

 

BTW, this discussion is probably better suited to take place in the REF 10 thread but I still thought it'd be worth chiming in here.

 

Hope this helps,

Julian

Thanks for the edifying post. I moved the conversation to the thread you suggested, posting a few questions. Looking forward to your reply. 

[LowMidHigh]

Has anyone compared the sonic performance of USB input against coax? I'm curious of others' findings. 

[LowMidHigh]

When I received the MC3+USB two days ago, I was sorely disappointed. My humble Eitr sounded better; cleaner, more resolved and more neutral. It was in my face, nothing subtle. The MC3 was relatively boomy and muffled.

My source is HiBy R6, with no decrapers in the chain.

So I tried to feed the MC3 off the coax jack. What a metamorphosis! What a step up. My system never sounded so good. Perhaps a REF10 can improve on it, but I can't imagine how. To put it in context, many SoundCloud tracks are poorly mixed, and yet I even enjoy listening to them too now.

P. S. : That puts to rest an inquiry I made above as to the sonic differences between USB vs SPDIF, although other sources may yield different results. 



 

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I don't know if it's ever been answered: What takes the cup, cascading 2 or 3 MC3USB or 1 x MC3USB + REF10? 

[LowMidHigh]

14 hours ago, mourip said:

 

I have also found AES/EBU to sound better than USB with the M3USB. The REF10 adds refinement and finesse, not jump up and shout, but worth it if you are OK with the path to poverty ?

 

I have a feeling the less than stellar USB performance is why a stack of MC3USB is needed to clean up the signal further. 

 

I doubt cascading will do much when spdif/Aes is the source. But I'll find out soon... 

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24 minutes ago, Confused said:

The most pervasive theory as to why stacking MC3+USB's work is that the last MC3 before the DAC is already been fed a well-clocked signal, so this last MC3 has to work less hard, and hence produces less noise, jitter etc.  It is just a theory though, nobody seems to be able to measure this stuff.

 

From my own observational experience, I have definitely found that the MC3+USB is sensitive to whatever you use to feed it.  So the end result is different if the USB feed is from a microRendu, sMS-200ultra, tX-USBultra.  Even changing my sMS-200Ultra to the Neo version made a clear difference.  This is much the same with the other inputs, where I have tried different CD players and also my TV via Toslink.  There are two ways of looking at this, one is to say that the MC3+USB is transparent to the source feed, a second way is perhaps to say that the MC3+USB's USB input is inadequate, not removing all noise, jitter or whatever else from whatever is feeding it.  It is a fine product in my opinion, but is not a cure for all possible upstream issues.  Depending on how you look at this, it could be considered that we are saying pretty much the same thing.

 

Thank you for the input.

 

Base on your observations, arguing that the MC3USB isn't sensitive to the source is unattainable. I suppose it mean there’s some sort of “leak”, i.e., jitter/interference travel within the device to affect the re-clocking output. It’s beyond my pay-grade, but I have a hunch some sleuth work could nail it once and for all.

 

I suggested to Christian to improve the product with an internal loop that would mimic a stack of MC3USB, or an external feed with user provided cable and an option to set the number of iterations. 

 

The reply was the idea had been floated before, but space and cost considerations prevent such upgrade. 

 

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20 minutes ago, Balázs said:

I've been using a REF10 with two cascaded MC3+USBs (connected with AES/ABU) Definitely better than one MC3+USB. A third one didn't provide an audible benefit. The quality of the AES/ABU cable plays a role but the impact of the input USB cable has been huge. In my system I have found the  Entreq Infinity Atlantis digital line very good.

 

Thanks you. I was looking for this particular input.

 

I gather you feed the 1st MC3 with USB. I wonder if going coax would render the 2nd MC+ superfluous. I'll try soon as I'm waiting for REF10 + 2nd MC3. I can't believe anything can improve my current sound, but oh lord, let me be wrong

 

[LowMidHigh]

Changing the subject for a second. 

Vis-a-vis re-clockering, I've repeatedly encountered a basic question: "How do I get away from USB and still playing music off my Mac?"

My solution: an affordable DAP. Its USB is connected to the Mac for audio transfer and charging, while it's mini spdif feeds the MC3.

Best of both worlds.

[LowMidHigh]

4 minutes ago, m5sime said:

Has anyone experimented with using the Mutec clock out to feed your DAC as well as feed it audio (to sync them?) I tried A/B tests on my Brooklyn DAC (internal clock that Mtyek recommend), using the sync on audio (i.e. clock rate of the stream via AES in my case (from the Mutec) and also 'ext' clock on the DAC - which uses the word clock output from the Mutec via a BNC cable to the Mytek ext clock in.. 

 

Cannot say I heard much difference - or at least very subtle.. Guessing the Mytek isn't wanting to use an Ext clock, isn't optimised for it, or the clock quality in the Mutec is similar to the Mytek.. Perhaps others have tried their REF 10 feeding the Mutec and their DAC?

 

Simon

From Myteck's Design Philosophy document, vis-a-vis the Brooklyn:

Special attention to clock jitter. Internal Femtoclock generator (jitter<0.82ps)

 

MC+3 clock:

Clock Jitter < 1 ps

 

So you're unlikely to perceive any difference. There's an entire discussion in this thread regarding the Brooklyn. If you want to know more,  use the search option.

 

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9 minutes ago, m5sime said:

Has anyone experimented with using the Mutec clock out to feed your DAC as well as feed it audio (to sync them?) I tried A/B tests on my Brooklyn DAC (internal clock that Mtyek recommend), using the sync on audio (i.e. clock rate of the stream via AES in my case (from the Mutec) and also 'ext' clock on the DAC - which uses the word clock output from the Mutec via a BNC cable to the Mytek ext clock in.. 

 

Cannot say I heard much difference - or at least very subtle.. Guessing the Mytek isn't wanting to use an Ext clock, isn't optimised for it, or the clock quality in the Mutec is similar to the Mytek.. Perhaps others have tried their REF 10 feeding the Mutec and their DAC?

 

Simon

Crap! You posted everything to do with he Brooklyn on this thread yourself! Why bring it up again?

[LowMidHigh]

Does the MC3 thoroughly strip out the incoming clock information and  then append a complety fresh clock instead? Or is the old clock information being manipulated to increase accuracy?

My reading suggests thd former: a totally new clock. Observations points to the latter, else why would different sources and protocols sound unlike? In other words, If the old clock is discarded is favore of the MC3, the sound should be identical independently of source. That's not the case, though.

Does anyone know more?

[LowMidHigh]

6 hours ago, Abtr said:

Coax and toslink differ in electrical properties and in the amount of jitter that their interfaces produce. Asynchronous USB generally has the lowest jitter, but it tends to be electrically noisy. Now jitter is not too much of a problem for a modern DDC or DAC, but electrical noise (common mode or differential mode) is a problem. If the USB input of the Mutec is not properly isolated, then electrical noise from the source/computer can interfere with DD conversion (reclocking) in the Mutec and possibly with DA conversion in the DAC.

So that nearly explains the USB difference in sound. Still, my DAP spdif sounds considerably better than the optical on the Chromcast. So the jitter level must have a substantial impact on DDC inside the MC3. 

[LowMidHigh]

Seeking advice on a new server into a cascade of two MC3USB feeding active monitors. 

 

My current source is HiBy R6, mini spdif. The sound is fantastic, but I'm looking into an upgrade: either SOtM sMS-200Ultra or Allo Digione Signature player. 

 

The 200 has a USB output, which I don't have a good experience with in general; both my MacBook Pro and R6 USB leave a lot to be desired. Of course, the SOtM may dispell all my apprehensions and end up sounding amazing with the Mutec. 

 

The Allo is fitted with 75ohm BNC, which is my favorite after AES. 

 

Anyone care to share their experience/opinion? 

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1 hour ago, noshortcuts said:

Can't believe nobody ever responded in over a year. Well, it may have been 4k at that time. IDK. It is $1200 now. Way overpriced. But... does anybody care anymore. I guess not.

 

4k is for the REF10. 

$1,200 is $50 more for the MC3USB before Mutec switched distributors. 

 

"Overpriced" implies a comparable equivalence in a lower price point. Is there one? 

 

You may suggest it's not worth the expenditure. I wouldn't have a quarrel with you. It's totally subjective. Moreover, I'd say that a high-end streamer + a good switch would give you an amazing sound; but adding a cascade of MC3USB + REF10 will enchant you. Is the incrementally elevated experience worth $7,500? For each their own. 

 

Happy tunes! 

[LowMidHigh]

17 minutes ago, justubes said:

How about if you dont use usb and connect mc3+usb using AES or SPDIF?

 

Is it better?

 

I2S is probably the better of all connectiins.

 

I tried the MC+3 USB off my computer and wasn't too impressed. 

 

Currently, it's AES from my streamer into the MC3+. Being balanced, it's probably the best transmission protocol, with SPDIF over BNC being a second runner.

 

I2S is better on paper, but it's not a standard protocol. That alone can pose major issues. Further,  Mutec doesn't support it all. 

 

 

 

[LowMidHigh]

16 minutes ago, mourip said:

Have any of you successfully dimmed the LEDs on the M3USB front panel using the instructions from the manual which require you to push the two front buttons at the same time?

 

I have tried this several times but what always happens is that I just end up changing the settings. Either perfect timing is required or this function just does not work. As far as I know I am at the most recent(not very) firmware version.

 

BTW. The M3USB is still one of the best audio purchases I have ever made.

 

Thanks!

Paul

 

Hi Paul,

 

I've successfully dimmed and lit them on many a time. See a photo of my cascade in a "stealth mode."

 

From my experience, the user guide isn't accurate in that regard. It actually takes pressing buttons in sequence not simultaneously. 

Now, I'm away from my system and I haven't executed the sequence for a while, so I may be misleading you. But as far as I recall, you press one of the buttons, and while keeping it down, you press the other button. It doesn't take long to get the hang of it.

 

BTW, I currently use AES all throughout. I used a 2 meter SPDIF cable to feed the first MC3+USB when my steamer was DigiOne, and the EMI from my other gear killed the sound. Only shortening the cable resolved the issue.

 

 

[LowMidHigh]

9 minutes ago, dstubked said:

Hey everyone, I just got a mutec mc3+ usb and I was wondering if other users leave it on indefinitely? Do you turn it off after usage? I am clocking it with the ref10, according to the ref10 manual, it is fine to turn it off when not using. However, an industry expert in another thread I was in recommend not turning off the ref10 and it should be left on always to ensure stability and to make sure the OXCO clock last a long time.

 

I am wondering if this is the case with the mc3+ usb. Thoughts anyone?

 

Thanks!

 

Oh my...Are you certain the manual sanctions turning the REF10 off? 

 

Perhaps for a long disuse, but not on a daily basis. For stabile performance, the internal oven has to reach a certain temperature and stayed that way for many days. I've been told that fact many a time on this site, and that was confirmed by Mutec itself via an email exchange.

 

Bottom line: leave it on, unless not using it for a prolonged period of time.

 

As for the MC3+, since you bypass the internal clock, you could theoretically turn it off.  However, some people believe its other chips benefit from being in a stable environment and keep their unit on at all times.

[LowMidHigh]

For all you overboarders…

What is the longest chain you’ve tried? Has anyone given 4 units a shake?

 

Bring it on!

[LowMidHigh]

2 hours ago, Pro Jules said:

I am not a $$$ cable fan 

 

But adding a Ref 10 120 SE will give you a sound upgrade! 

 

Chain another MC3+USB and you are in heaven. 

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1 hour ago, zoltan said:

I have two MC3+USB changed. I tried four with a friend, three seemed to be audible but the third one with much less benefit than the second. Both MC3+USB are clocked with a Mutec Ref 10 master clock and so are my SOtM SMS-200 ultra (HQPlayer NAA) and SOtM tx-USB ultra. The MC3+USBs run on Uptone Audio JS-1 linear power supply.  All DC going through two LT3045 panels.
Curious USB between SOtM txUSB ultra and the first MC3+USB (the other USB cable is stock) 
I think digital is as good as it gets but I'd be happy to listen to anybody's ideas for improvement, especially at little cost.

 

That's exactly my experience with chaining MC3+USB. Two  is a great bang-for-the-buck, while the 3rd one only gives it a small boost. Moving up from Ref10 to Ref10 SE-120 makes a sweet difference. 

 

Don't care for fancy cables; most are expensive and not to spec, but a chain of ERs before my streamer has done wonders to the SQ. Powered by LPS and tethered to the REF10 SE-120. Recommenced.  

[LowMidHigh]

13 minutes ago, zoltan said:

There is no factory upgrade to SE-120. I don't think that selling the Ref 10 and buying a new SE-120 is a worthwhile investment in my system. As for cables, I think they do matter a lot but don't need 'fancy' ones as you call them. I found that clock cables make a huge difference too, they are transmitting a 10Mhz clock signal that has to be very accurate.
What is a "chain of ERs"? Don't know what ER stands for. (Not Emergency Room, I guess)  

Let me start at the bottom.

ER =  UpTone EtherRegen. 

 

I agree, clock cables make a difference. From my research, the difference in performance lays in the attenuation across the range. The flatter the curve, the better. Not that many brands publish these figures, Belden and Canare being the exceptions. I've manage to extract that information from Furutech too. If you can live with a semi-rigid cable, Belden 4797 takes the cup. Canare LVS-77S is the best stranded core cable.

 

I'm quite certain you're mistaken about an upgrade path to the REF10 SE120. I paid for mine, shipped it out to Berlin and received it back with a fresh oscillator, an enclosed graph and a sticker at the bottom. I suggest you contact Mutec directly for prices and logistics.