Jump to content
IGNORED

Mutec MC-3+


Recommended Posts

My MC-3 + Usb is sitting at home still in the carton. Just need to wait another 24 hours of work and travel to pass and let the listening begin .

Yes not sure what to do with the MC-12, it works very nicely with the DAC.

 

Am inclined to lean towards keeping the USB out of the DAC totally. Electrically Usb is toxic, but it's bandwidth fir high rates of DSD works out.

AS Profile Equipment List        Say NO to MQA

Link to comment
I would be interested if someone has upgraded or changed from another re-clocker to the Mutec and what their impressions are?

 

A few posters back have (had) a Big Ben which is now surpassed by Mutec clocks.

 

Perhaps the Pro Audio sites can be more of a guide. For our (audiophile) playback, the use of a reclocker really cleans up USB. Not that this hasn't been done before, but to sync several devices together while keeping jitter and latency under control takes a little more work, so why not use this technology for audio playback and keep this processing out of the DAC.

AS Profile Equipment List        Say NO to MQA

Link to comment

There are many USB "treatments" on the market to either re-clock, filter, regenerate, or provide isolation. It is difficult to find the right mix, with some units requiring a power supply, which adds another dimension in angst as to find a a low power linear supply which won't affect either AC or DC outputs. Others can react with the cables adversely, we do live in exciting times.

 

 

Being familiar with the sound performance of the Mutec MC-1.2, the attraction of a galvanic isolation DDC in the Mutec MC-3+USB was a very tempting upgrade. When it worked, the Intona 7054 worked well with the MC-1.2 and was hoping the MC-3+USB would be at least equal.

 

 

I need to be careful here, since I haven't experienced DSD256 native. I didn't want to download new DSD256 music, since I am not familiar with it.

HQ Player can upsample anything to DSD256 and the MC-3+USB can accept it, but I am unsure of the benefits and will keep an open mind. First impressions are the sound became thin and lacking in body and dynamics, notably in the bass. The sound stage narrows sharply and focus of individual instruments is a problem. Micro details are there, but should be more pronounced. After a time the sound is uncomfortable and difficult to listen to, on widely different tracks, a symptom is that things are not right.

 

 

AC/DC [sHM-CD] "Let there be Rock" opening sounds a true cacophony upsampled to DSD256, whereas there are only four instruments which are readily decipherable. There's obvious distortion of the guitars but the drums should be prominent and accurate. Shelby Lynne's "Just a little Lovin" is lost at sea, nothing much of the soundstage at all, the minutest of details are gone including reverb and tape hiss. Oh dear, what's going on, is the problem the player or the DDC? Sophie Milman's "So Sorry" lacks any emotion, I usually hear the vocals very prominent across the stage, and when an accent is sung, it's nicely defined and you can every inflection, usually.

 

 

I was ready to throw in the towel and Mr. Mutec kindly offered me a refund. Dang, there has to be a reason why the sound was so bad. One always learns from errors, and making a discovery is a bonus. Out came the multimeter, not really all that keen to rip open expensive USB cables, but the USB shells are easy to get to, let's see. A common reference point was used in the power distributor spare receptacle's earth pin to each of the shells.

 

 

HQ Player was still output DSD256 into the MC-3+USB and all measurements are in a live system. The Lenovo m93P tiny's shell to earth measured 85mV AC. OK, that's where the sound is crap and this is the same voltage that appears at the MC-3+USB USB input. I shorted the earth connection to the shell, no major change to the sound, so that method doesn't work.

 

USB Shell Voltages.jpg

 

 

Substituted the Lenovo for MacbookPro running on batteries, same HQPlayer output DSD256, same tracks. The measured voltage now was 240mV AC. The sound... IMPROVED to jaw dropping :)Soundstage back to normal wide levels, far, far less distortion, especially in the treble, blacker blacks. Wow. Here's the mother load. Soundstage and dynamics are back in abundance, sibilance is under control, and AC/DC's "Dirty Deeds done dirt cheap" dynamics actually tempts you with evil thoughts of the back door man. When a comparison is made to the spinning CD of Sophie Milman's "In the Moonlight" and the Mutec/HQPlayer the CD still has the edge in finer detail, and that accuracy of vocal reproduction with excellent micro details. Moving on...

 

 

The isolation transformer used for the Lenovo's laptop type power supply was removed, to let the balanced AC supply do its work. From 85mV previously on the shell to earth, the voltage was now 260mV. Sound was still great, why not add in the Intona 7054 & see what happens, it's kinda lonely by itself. The voltage at the MC-3+USB increased to 360mV (further above earth = better sound quality) and that slight edginess had gone from the vocals, overall, not a large change but noticeable and enough to keep in place.

 

 

Mr. Mutec is not going to be receiving the MC-3+USB back unless it fails for some reason, it's definitely a stayer.

 

 

For the computer, Task Manager logged 20% CPU duty for HQ Player 3.13.0 up sampling to DSD256. There was no stutter at any time. For PCM up sampling to 192kHz, the CPU logs 0.7%.

 

IMG_0381.jpg

 

The photo shows config for DSD256 on the AES3/BNC outputs

 

Equipment chain

Lenovo m93 tiny i7 16GB RAM headless USB2.0 out Win10

Nordost Blue Heaven USB A to B Cable

Intona 7054 Isolator

Nordost Blue Heaven USB A to B Cable

Mutec MC-3 + USB DDC USB input

Mutec MC-3 + USB DDC AES3 output, set to 176.4kHz

Playback Designs MPD-3 AES3 input DAC, Oyaide Terzo XX XLR Out

Accuphase C-2420 Pre Amp

Accuphase P-4200 Power Amp

Kef Reference 205/2

SPL Phonitor 2 Headphone amplifier

Audeze LCD-3, Sony MDR-Z7 Headphones

Equitech 1.5IRQ Balanced AC Power Transformer

Oyaide Tunami & P Series Plugs, Furutech AG cables with FI-E11 Plugs

AS Profile Equipment List        Say NO to MQA

Link to comment
I wonder how the USB/SPDIF converter in the Mutek sounds in comparison to the Berkeley Alpha USB, which also does galvanic isolation. The Alpha was released about five years ago, has newer and cheaper technology surpassed it yet?

 

Does anyone know how much the galvanic isolation modules in the Berkeley Alpha USB is? Not that my search skills are perfect, but there's no mention of what the level is. What about the clock rate? Both values for the MC-3+USB are stated.

 

The MC-3+USB can reclock the output, or receive an external clock, and can be adjusted to suit the output device, the BAD Alpha USB cannot. DSD is a big issue, the Alpha cannot accept DSD64 let alone DSD256. DSD to PCM conversion is very good in the Mutec, am surprised how good. Five years in a long time in computer audio. So just on paper already there's flexibility built in and speaking of paper the MC-3+USB is cheaper than the Alpha USB, and ROHS.

 

I feel like delivering a sales pitch, I don't work for Mutec, just a very satisfied user.

AS Profile Equipment List        Say NO to MQA

Link to comment
Hello One and a half,

 

Thank you for this thrilling report :-).

So you have witnessed that the Intona was bringing additional quality (360mV vs 260mV) to the signal on the input of the Mutec is it correct ?

 

Is the improvement audible in your opinion ?

 

The voltages were measured with a Fluke 114, so it doesn't include "much" lower order RF. Today, I moved the Mutec and the Intona about retaining the same cabling and the voltages dropped to about 85 mV again, so thought uh oh, but everything played well, so go figure Maria.

 

 

For fun I added an 'old' original ifi USB and this lifted the volts about 100mV on the original setup, but for SQ it didn't do much. The idea was to lift the shells further above earth which it did. It was mainly to aid in the transmission properties, but that process added another two USB cables, I prefer to keep these at minimum.

 

The Intona was a worthwhile inclusion, it had less effect than compared with the MC-1.2 which was a dramatic change. The extra isolation, just polished the final shine, if you use Meguiars Final Inspection for cars, there's the analogy. As always, the choice of cabling is important, just might try the Curious Cables again, now that I know what to look for, even though maybe rough road to get there.

AS Profile Equipment List        Say NO to MQA

Link to comment
Hello One and a half,

 

Thank you for this thrilling report :-).

So you have witnessed that the Intona was bringing additional quality (360mV vs 260mV) to the signal on the input of the Mutec is it correct ?

 

Is the improvement audible in your opinion ?

 

You know, the possibility of using two Intona devices is starting to make a lot of sense, like two Regens. The further away from earth the better.

AS Profile Equipment List        Say NO to MQA

Link to comment
If I read correctly, you seem to be using the voltage between the USB shell and AC ground to predict how good things would sound. And the higher the voltage, the better things would sound. Is that correct? What's the reason behind that?

 

People who do AC polarity measurements normally choose the polarity that shows lower component ground to AC ground voltage. But that's done component by component, not in a live system with everything hooked up. Off the top of the head, I don't have anything in my system that is more than 50mv vs AC ground when measured in isolation...

 

Well, the lower the better is considered ideal, now measuring at different times of the day, the voltage increases from the shell to earth as the night goes on....which leads down another path of mystery. The frame of a workstation desktop and the Equitech transformer frame are tied to each other by a 6mm cable (all I had kicking about), the voltage difference between the two is 18 mV and also to the shell at the desktop is at earth potential, whereas the Lenovo tiny floats above earth.

 

The higher the voltage above ground certainly did improve the sound, or rather removed the added crud. Where shield currents rear their ugly head, the whole of the system needs a looking at, then pinpointing the problem to one component.

 

Probably the main issue here is the isolation transformer that was fitted to the Lenovo PC's switchmode power supply was removed, allowing the same AC voltage references to occur over the PC and the Mutec. Perhaps the USB shields were carrying too much (crud) content from the PC to the Mutec and could not reference back to the main AC supply. The Mutec outputs are certainly grounded, so it's one way street. Makes me think twice about isolation transformers for individual components.

AS Profile Equipment List        Say NO to MQA

Link to comment
I'm kind of intellectually reticent to stacking those filters, use more curious cables, aso...

I'm using two MC-3+ USB stacked in the way Fujak documented. I'm very happy with that for the moment :-)

 

For stacking two Intonas on second thought, there will be a problem if the DAC front end can draw too much current. The Intona can drop from 500mA to 300mA at peak, so the second Intona is behind the eight ball already and can't supply enough current for the DAC. The power for the 2nd Intona will be gobbled up by itself, leaving only drips to be used by the DAC. No, not all that great.

 

On the topic of stacking MC-3+USB. Is the way I look at this correct:

 

If the signal is PCM, there's no harm for a player like Audirvana + or HQ Player to upsample to the maximum of 192 kHz. Let the DAC have an easier filtering time. The same 192 kHz signal needs to be the same from Digital to Digital Conveter (DDC) 1 to DDC 2. The MC-3+USB is good, but it's not an SRC Master :) It's a Clock Master. From DDC 2 the output is 192 kHz PCM. If the sampling frequency is the same, then the gear changing time would be minimal, otherwise there's 3 time lags, the two DDC plus the DAC.

 

For DSD it's similar, however the maximum sampling frequency output is 176.4 kHz, and that should pass through to the DAC as such.

 

On the topic of Fujak's cabling. Yes the cable price an hurt, AES3 just by technique can drown noise (since ~ 1932). I had two quality instances for different Oyaide cables as a passing comment. Plus the long lead time and a woeful US distributor has sadly put Oyaide on my black list. DH Labs, Blue Jeans, Wireworld, Monoprice at the other end + quite a few others can make good quality AES3 cables.

AS Profile Equipment List        Say NO to MQA

Link to comment

The Mutec MC-3+USB isn't that fond of USB 3.0 ports, with or without the Intona. The blue lock light was on, but no signal coming through. If there's a self powered USB 2.0 hub on the USB 3.0 port, the Mutec is OK, but the hub is a nuisance connection. Even more if the hub is powered from a wall wart.

 

USB 2.0 ports work with not a problem, first time every time.

AS Profile Equipment List        Say NO to MQA

Link to comment
Hi One and a half,

 

Before upsampling, the actual sampling rate switching latency, through the 2 Mutec MC-3+ USB and into the DAC, was between 3 and 4 seconds. I had adjusted this parameter in Audirvana to be able to enjoy the beginning of each track when listening to a playlist, where tracks were of different sampling rates.

 

After upsampling the sampling rate switching latency has completely disappeared, by definition I would say, which is an additional advantage of this solution.

 

Cool; that theory holds. For HQ Player, there are no time delays to allow the DAC to settle by the user that was more to the point of the question how this interacts. As far as HQ Player is concerned, it handshakes with the DDC 1 and that's all it has to do, it cannot sense the DAC or DDC 2.

 

3-4s is a long time to wait for sample rate changes, the flexibility is adjustable in A+, so upsampling is certainly the advantage.

AS Profile Equipment List        Say NO to MQA

Link to comment
The Sabertooth Z97 Mark 2, USB 3.1 Motherboard has both Intel Z97 express chipset and ASMedia USB 3.1 Controller. I'm using one of the ASMedia USB connections without any issues.

 

That explains a little further, both the MacBookPro and the Lenovo m93 Tiny use an Intel USB 3.0 extensible Host Controller, each one gives me trouble.

AS Profile Equipment List        Say NO to MQA

Link to comment

Thanks gldgate for the update, few questions?

 

On the coax, did you try the 75 Ohm BNC? It's difficult to spot perhaps in the small writing at the back, it is amongst the clock outputs. This was recommended to me by Mutec. If you have the facility to use AES3, then that's the best.

 

The setting of the clocks is a little complex (for me), depends on the source sampling frequency and what is output. I think we could post photos and compare might be easier, and also to learn from errors as well. If Julian can pop in from time to time to check what we are doing is right :)

AS Profile Equipment List        Say NO to MQA

Link to comment

Leds with DSD256 input, fixed PCM output of 176.4kHz (AES3)

 

MC-3 USB 0001.jpg

 

Leds with PCM192k, AES 3 output fixed at 192k. If HQ Player PCM filter is set to none, the MC-3+USB will change to suit.

 

MC-3 USB 0002.jpg

 

The two far rows of red Leds are "read only" the result of the green leds to the left. Like I said, these might be totally wrong, we're new at this.

AS Profile Equipment List        Say NO to MQA

Link to comment
Thanks for posting the pics. I've been using Roon/Tidal so setting is essentially your second picture with 44K output to AES. The Yggy does not do DSD and I prefer the Yggy's internal "combo burrito" filter to the HQ Player ones. I think my next step is to try my Sabre DAC with Mutec so I can experiment with some of the DSD settings.

 

If DSD goes all the way through to the DAC, then DoP is available, maximum of DSD64. There were some doubts about the DSD to PCM conversion in my mind, it was not the prime motivation for purchasing the DDC, however at DSD128 -> 176.4 was very good indeed, so went higher to 256 and kept it there, using this setting ever since.

AS Profile Equipment List        Say NO to MQA

Link to comment

I need to set the record straight on post #178 and the multimeter used. The Fluke 114 doesn't read "mixed" voltages all that well at all, so all the voltages measured are not right and need to be discarded. In fact I am looking for another meter, perhaps an Agilent.

 

With a different meter, Fluke 87V the other day, the following amendments apply.

 

V1 = Measure earth to Intona input = 1mV. This means the USB shell from the computer is at earth (ground) potential.

V2 = Measure earth to Intona output = 105mV

 

The addition of the isolation transformer on the AC supply to the computer, caused an imbalance of ground current which should have gone back to the AC supply but was coupled to the USB cable's shields instead and through the DDC. This is a classic ground loop, but in the digital side. With the isolation transformer removed, the balance was restored. It goes to show that bits are not bits, and USB signals are after all voltages and susceptible to ground loops and interference just like analog audio using interconnects with the resultant poor SQ,tyvm.

 

The lessons learned here is not to use an isolation transformer in front of a computer that uses:

 

- Balanced digital : USB, AES3

- Depending on the receiver, AES3id

AS Profile Equipment List        Say NO to MQA

Link to comment

The clock multiplier section had my poor head scratching, even consulted the German manual to make some sense out of the numbering with the same confused face. The confusion (with me) is that the word row in the manual is confused with column (like in Excel). Row is horizontal, and Column is vertical. Could also use 'rank' for vertical.

 

I hope the the way it sort of works out is like this :

 

LED 1 Column (or Rank) is the Word Clock output 1 (page 18)

LED 2 Column is the Word clock output 2 (page 18)

 

"Their numbering legend is assigned to the output numbers on the rear panel"

"The »CLOCK MULTIPLIERS« menu provides access to selecting several clock multipliers for the Word Clock (1&2), S/P-DIF (3), and AES3/11 (4) outputs as described in the section »Choosing clock multipliers«"

 

If you look on the back of the MC-3+USB, there are four BNC labelled 1A, 1B, 2A, 2B. The clock multipliers on the first two columns are for these outputs only, so A & B are a duplicate to connect two devices. By arranging the LEDs according to the table in the manual on page 22, 23 in the German Manual, you can select the maximum frequency for the Word clock Outputs.

 

Clock multipliers.jpg

 

- If you had a device to sync to say 1-10MHz on rear panel output 1A, the first column at LED 1 would be nothing lit.

 

- At the same time, you could have 192kHz Limit on WordClock output rear panel 1B, the LED 2 at row 1 would be lit, as well as the LED at row 2 under LED 2.

 

For us folk that don't have such devices,

 

LED 3 Column is for the S/PDIF output (the Coax BNC and TOSlink)

LED 4 Column is for the AES3 output

 

The S/PDIF and AES3 have limited outputs to 192kHz, they can't go to 8x, so there's only the 3 LEDs per column.

 

For column 3, S/PDIF outputs we can multiply x 1 (first LED at row 1 column 3), x 2 (second LED at Row 2 column 3) or x4 (third LED at Row 3 column 3)

 

For Column 4, AES3 output same as for S/PDIF but all at column 4.

 

The debate is, does it sound any different, or is the menuing system locked out under different rates?

 

Don't know will have to wait cause figuring this out has chewed into experiment time and it's time for eyes to shut :)

AS Profile Equipment List        Say NO to MQA

Link to comment
So making sure I understand your settings - please correct if wrong:

 

 

I will try :) This device can perform a LOT of functions!

 

Column 1. Using Internal Clock, and Re-clocking output (re-clock not up-sample).

The reclocking is for the input AND the output. (see page 19 in the manual (last paragraph)).

 

Column 2. You are using USB IN - either with PCM or DSD/DoP inbound - only the first LED would be lit if you were only sending PCM.

- Not in front of the DDC at the moment, but from memory the 1st LED in column 2 REFERENCE doesn't seem to light up on its own. If the two top LEDS in Column 2 are on, the source is either USB/PCM or USB/DoP.

 

Column 3. You are not up-sampling any inbound signal so these are all off

It's a little more complex when reading the manual again (page 19 paragraph Selecting <<USB..)

I need more study on this one!

 

Column 4. Just play the sample rate presented to the Mutec (1x)

 

Column 4 as explained in post #214 is the output of the rear panel terminals 1A & 1B. The last two LEDS (Columns 6 & 7) define the clock multipliers for the S/PDIF and AES3 outputs. If any are in the x1 row, there's no clock multiplication. So HQPlayer can convert whatever it likes, the MC-3+USB will follow. If you select a x2 or x4 for the S/PDIF or AES 3 outputs, (Column 6 & 7), the MC-3+USB will send out blank data. due to :

 

Page 21 the note on Multiplying Digital Audio Signals (last paragraph)

"When a digital audio input has been selected as reference and one or both multiplication factors are set higher than × 1, the MC-3+USB will only output black frame signals (AES3 and S/P-DIF signals without audio content) at the audio outputs. A sampling rate conversion of the incoming digital audio signal will not be carried out!"

 

AS Profile Equipment List        Say NO to MQA

Link to comment
Yeah I did the RTFM multiple times and still unsure - LOL That is why I asked about your picture and what the settings were doing.

 

Thanks...

 

Yes, it's doing my head in. Maybe the manual needs to be split up to show (more) examples of:

 

DSD input

DoP treatment

USB PCM to S/PDIF & AES3 with/without reclocking

 

That's why for simplicity there's just the single DSD256 from HQ Player and a conversion inside the MC-3+USB to 174.6 PCM to the DAC. In time, the beast can be mastered, but at least we can't blow up anything. If there's a complete goof up, the DDC will shoot black data, no harm done.

AS Profile Equipment List        Say NO to MQA

Link to comment

Back for some more trial and error. I'm sure the manual is really clear to the pro audio guys but if they really are aiming this for the consumer audiophile market they may want to reorganize this section (selecting clock multipliers) of the manual a bit.

 

Yes, the pro guys would know this backwards, but for us consumers, not so easy. Really wouldn't want to change anything in the device because then there's a real mess and you can alienate both camps. There's a difference between complex clever engineering that takes a while to understand, versus the complex unfriendly engineering that annoys....Amarra products comes to mind in that sentence, whatever you try nothing works consistently.

AS Profile Equipment List        Say NO to MQA

Link to comment
how good is this USB/SPDIF reclocker with no oversampling 16/44 in and 16/44 out ?

 

Apart from DSD conversion to PCM which isn't really sample rate converting (format conversion), the Mutec doesn't up or down sample data. So if the source is 44.1PCM, the output is 44.1 PCM albeit with a re-clocked output. The player in the PC controls the sample rate to change.

If the DAC is capable of 96kHz maximum, the PC Player needs to set this as a limit, the MC-3+USB cannot do this. The function is much the same as any USB to S/PDIF converter, with the big plus of galvanic isolation of USB and re-clocking that output data to the dac.

 

When we are talking about higher clock rates, the purpose is to change the clock rate of the outgoing data, so that other devices like DAW tools can read the data in at different rates compared to the original input data. Not really applicable for audiophile use.

AS Profile Equipment List        Say NO to MQA

Link to comment
The front panel is confusing so I would like to ask...

Can I input 24/192 PCM and get out the same? Or is it limited to 96Hz?

 

If the MC-3+USB inputs 192 PCM via [uSB] [AES3] [s/PDIF] (your choice) the output will be 192 PCM. The unit doesn't SRC, only the upstream PC/Mac/Linux/Streamer player is capable of changing sample rates.

 

Yeah and what SwissBear said :)

AS Profile Equipment List        Say NO to MQA

Link to comment
The Mutec driver is compatible with Windows Server 2012R and works fine with AO.

 

There you go mourip. Remove the Schiit drivers for the Yggdrasil and use the Mutec ones instead. You'll find the ASIO drivers top class, compared with WASAPI. AES3 cable required. That's probably next on the list to discuss as to which one. At the moment though, am impressed with Cat5e, yup, unshielded twisted pair 25m with AES3 to RJ45 adapters. For short runs...wide ranging discussion like all cable topics.

AS Profile Equipment List        Say NO to MQA

Link to comment
is it possible to use the Mutec MC3 usb for movie too or it had to much delay for the sync ?

 

The host software can sync slow or fast, I don't see why using the Mutec would be any different to any other sound source. Maybe stacked is a different story, but once all locked in, sync should be good to go.

 

If you're really into video, you could clock video as well as sound with a master clock system, the Mutec would be well suited.

AS Profile Equipment List        Say NO to MQA

Link to comment

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now



×
×
  • Create New...