exaSound e18 - e20 - e28 - Info and Experiences Post All Here

[exa]

3 hours ago, Ric Schultz said:

 

Noise floor with no signal has nothing to do with percents of distortion.  There is no signal, so there cannot be any distortion.  This is misleading.  The other post of a DAC measurement (that you are using to compare) was a measurement of distortion of a given signal.  If you want to do a comparison then you need to show the same test.  There was no picture shown of the "noise floor" of the other DAC. 

 

 

Hello Ric,

The topic of measurements that you are referring to starts with my post from March 24, 2017:

"Your illustration of extra robustness is the presence of two transformers and two division walls.  Can you show us the measurements for this device?  We should be able to see the negative influence of the transformers on the noise measurements. I would argue that our approach to keep the power supply outside and away from the DAC delivers much superior signal to noise ratio.  Here are the e20 measurements: http://www.exasound.com/e20/e20Measurements.aspx

GUTB replies on March 26, 2017 with the only graph that he can finds for the Gustard X20U Pro.  The presented graph is not about investigating power supply noise, so it is a bit out of topic. 

In my post from March 27, I point out about the different scales of the graphs and I explain the advantages use of galvanic isolation and external power supplies (the bottom of our graph is at -160 dB vs. 106dB for the Gustard X20U Pro).  

The discussion is about power supply induced noise, not about distortion.  Within the context the graph of the exaSound e20 noise floor is appropriate and the the Gustard X20U Pro graph is about something else.

Please check the original question and my reply from March 24:

 

 

 

Check the link to the e20 measurements for distortion measurements. 

[exa]

19 hours ago, Ric Schultz said:

 

...Measurements are just a starting point.  Most all DACs with ESS chips these days measure super.  Yet, they all sound different....and the one that measures best is not always the one that sounds the best.  Please, trust your ears....

 

Not all of them measure super and few publish their measurements.  The measurement show you that there are no mistakes in the design.  Measurements are just two-dimensional slices of the reality.  The final judgement is subjective, the human ear and brain are more sensitive than any measurement instrument.  So you need both, when there is correlation between measurements and subjective appreciation the device is worth considering.

 

We've just came back from the AXPONA Chicago show. A visitor came back twice to the exaSound room and told me something along the lines: "Do you remember that last year I asked you to rename your DAC? Well, l am saying it again, you should name it The Best  Sounding DAC". 

Maybe he is a CA member and he can comment on it.

[Ric Schultz]

I stand by what I said.....you made it look like you were comparing apples to apples and then created a fictious distortion figure for a non distortion producing noise floor.  You must be feeling the pressure of these Chinese DACs that might give better sonic performance for less money.

[exa]

3 hours ago, Ric Schultz said:

I stand by what I said......

I've illustrated that you reversed cause and effect - one of the most commonly used propaganda technologies.

 

I will reply on the third part of your original post. In the meantime here are again the distortion measurements of our current flagship DAC - the e32: http://www.exasound.com/e32/e32DACMeasurements.aspx

 

[exa]

On 2017-05-04 at 5:33 PM, Ric Schultz said:

Speaking of measurements......I wonder how the new $1460 LKS MH-D004 DAC measures.  It has two ESS9038 DACs in it.  A single 9038 is essentially 4 9028s in parallel.  A single 9028 run in stereo mod (like what Exasound is doing) will give you 4 parallel DACs.  Dual 9038s run in mono mode will give you essentially 32 9028 DACs in parallel.  The more DACs in parallel the lower the noise and the greater the dynamic range....this is a fact. 

 

Having 32 DACs in parallel puts a very high current demand on the I/V stage (it's not worth it to discuss using the ES9038 in voltage mode). If the I/V stage is not done properly, the advantages of using the 9038 chip are lost.  When it is done properly, the component count and the cost can increase significantly.  We felt that it is not worth to make a device with the 9038 DAC chip just to show off a part number. It takes a while to develop a completely new analogue output stage and we will release it when we are completely satisfied with it. The 9028 DAC chip will remain relevant because it offers excellent price/performance benefits.

[jtwrace]

On 5/4/2017 at 5:33 PM, Ric Schultz said:

 

Noise floor with no signal has nothing to do with percents of distortion.  There is no signal, so there cannot be any distortion.  This is misleading.  The other post of a DAC measurement (that you are using to compare) was a measurement of distortion of a given signal.  If you want to do a comparison then you need to show the same test.  There was no picture shown of the "noise floor" of the other DAC. 

 

Measurements are just a starting point.  Most all DACs with ESS chips these days measure super.  Yet, they all sound different....and the one that measures best is not always the one that sounds the best.  Please, trust your ears.

 

Speaking of measurements......I wonder how the new $1460 LKS MH-D004 DAC measures.  It has two ESS9038 DACs in it.  A single 9038 is essentially 4 9028s in parallel.  A single 9028 run in stereo mod (like what Exasound is doing) will give you 4 parallel DACs.  Dual 9038s run in mono mode will give you essentially 32 9028 DACs in parallel.  The more DACs in parallel the lower the noise and the greater the dynamic range....this is a fact. 

Why haven't you designed your own dac from scratch since you know everything?  

 

I'm sure @exa would enjoy seeing your execution as well as many others.  

[Ric Schultz]

jtwrace,

You like to hassel me, that is for sure.  You do it on every forum.....you don't like me?  Sorry, but I love you.

 

I have designed DACs of my own.  My "Hand made DAC" in the mid 90s used the UltraAnalog DAC, UltraAnalog input receiver, HDCD filter, had 5 transformers, shunt regulators, single Vishay output resistor for the output stage, etc. etc.  Some people think this thing is still killer.  Around 2000 I made the Millennium DACs.....you can read many glowing reviews on Audioreview.com.

 

It is much easier to mod an existing great sounding Chinese DAC than make your own from scratch.

 

Exa,

The people at LKS spent many a day making their own discrete output stage that could handle all the current from parallel 9038s.....that is one reason it sounds so great. 

[exa]

4 hours ago, Ric Schultz said:

 

The people at LKS spent many a day making their own discrete output stage that could handle all the current from parallel 9038s.....that is one reason it sounds so great. 

 

 

So you know "it sounds so great". By earlier in this thread you were not so sure:

 

"You must be feeling the pressure of these Chinese DACs that might give better sonic performance for less money. "

 

It seems you have an agenda to promote something here - Chinese DACs and mod ideas for Chinese DACs.

Our goal is to design and make exaSound DACs properly, so there is nothing left to mod. 

 

 

[Ric Schultz]

Everyone has an "agenda"....including you.

 

This game is infinite.  Every single thing you do to a product changes the sound.  There is no audio product of any kind that cannot be made better.....by the manufacturer or by someone else.  Everything is mod...able.  You just said you are working on an output stage to use with the 9038 above....so you are going to use the better DAC with a better output stage.....you are modding it.   Mod means modify....or change.  There will always be a new version of whatever by every manufacturer......and someone else can go inside anything and with the right knowledge can make it sound different and possibly better because this game is infinite and no one person or company has all the knowledge.  The more I know, the more I know that I know nothing.....I am learning new things every single day.....really.  I hope you are too.

[dennis88]

in terms of a product lifecycle a "new version" of a product is probably not considered a "mod". a "mod" is considered as a change applied by the customer/user, not intended by the designer. if the designer releases a new product with changes with regard to its predecessor, it's considered a "new product" (or update or new version). also: the "game" is not infinite. hope you learned something today. you should stop trolling, so george can spend his time on developing an update to the e32 (e.g. e32 mk2).

[Ric Schultz]

The "game"......which is life, which is audio, which is who we are, is infinite........infinite possibilities....infinite Love, Infinite Joy......I wish you all of this.....for this is who we are.

 

This is what we are all learning.....we are beautiful beyond imagination......praise God!

 

Now back to the earth.....tweak that thing until perfection.....tweak your audio.....tweak your soul.

 

Praise Everyone!  There is no them.....just the face of God.....looking back at you.

[robocop]

Quote

Our goal is to design and make exaSound DACs properly, so there is nothing left to mod. 

 

Impossible I'd say. As soon as you think you have it someone has improved it. Life cycle there is always a better way and with technology the way its going is faster and faster. $40,000 dollar Dac's from 10 years ago are surpassed. All you can do is implement new ideas with whats available instantly and sell it. As soon as you release it someone is improving it, if not already.

Not being negative do the best you can with what you can afford and the market will sort it. I have been there and its a bitch. Great goal though nothing left to mod. I don't mod anymore can't be bothered. And really I want to buy it perfect for $2k but reality is not so, but it is on the horizon.

[jtwrace]

On 5/9/2017 at 5:21 PM, Ric Schultz said:

jtwrace,

You like to hassel me, that is for sure.  You do it on every forum.....you don't like me?  Sorry, but I love you.

 

I have designed DACs of my own. 

 

It is much easier to mod an existing great sounding Chinese DAC than make your own from scratch.

 

I'm not hassling you.  I'm sorry you perceive it to be that way.  It gets tiresome to see you tell a successful product manufacturer how to do something while your "street cred" is based solely on mods which quite frankly are scary (e.g. removing a fuse).  This is 2017 and a lot has changed since you did your last dac, do one now if you think you can do it better.  The @exa dac is a fine dac based on the measurements and I'd challenge you to show a before and after of any dac that you mod with proper AP or even dScope measurements.  

[jjkale]

Without commenting on other equipment, I would like to endorse Ric's mods and way of thinking.  I had Ric mod 3 Gustards for my MCH system.  I shipped him two 9028 Pros for L/R, C/Sub and one 9018 for the surrounds.  He also modded 2 x ifi SPDIF iPurifiers for me (L/R, C/Sub).  I am currently driving the Gustards with an Oppo 103D, also modded by Ric.  I mounted a Vanity HD board in the Oppo which converts the 7.1 analog outputs to digital.

Ric added an LPS to the Oppo and also an advanced Crystek clock, along with some transport mods.

The Gustard modifications include adjustment of the power section, Crystek clock, and the analog output section.

I am very happy with the work and now regard this equipment to be as good as $4k-ish DACs.  Use your imagination.  Yes, value is a player for me along with performance.

I agree with Ric that everything is mod-able.  No shame in that.  One of the interesting elements of this hobby.  For instance, shortly after I made the move for the Gustards, the LKS 004 was released.  Maybe I will sell one of the Gustards and replace with an LKS for L/R.  Is that really any different than a mod?  I would argue that it is not.

It might be interesting to some that I will soon take delivery of a PinkFaun Streamer.  This equipment features a MCH I2s card.  I am expecting that I2s will be a substantial upgrade over SPDIF.  Take a look at the power supply for that bad boy if you have a chance!

Great weekend!  Go Penguins.

 

[exa]

How come there are no mods of exaSound DACs?  Perhaps they are made well to start with? Or they are too complicated for the mod-gurus? We make them with manual placement, you should be able to mod them by hand. Or perhaps the rational philosophy of the company attracts customers with critical independent thinking that are not prepared to pay for your services?

 

Can you suggest how to mod an e32?

 

[Fitzcaraldo215]

 

33 minutes ago, jjkale said:

Without commenting on other equipment, I would like to endorse Ric's mods and way of thinking.  I had Ric mod 3 Gustards for my MCH system.  I shipped him two 9028 Pros for L/R, C/Sub and one 9018 for the surrounds.  He also modded 2 x ifi SPDIF iPurifiers for me (L/R, C/Sub).  I am currently driving the Gustards with an Oppo 103D, also modded by Ric.  I mounted a Vanity HD board in the Oppo which converts the 7.1 analog outputs to digital.

Ric added an LPS to the Oppo and also an advanced Crystek clock, along with some transport mods.

The Gustard modifications include adjustment of the power section, Crystek clock, and the analog output section.

I am very happy with the work and now regard this equipment to be as good as $4k-ish DACs.  Use your imagination.  Yes, value is a player for me along with performance.

I agree with Ric that everything is mod-able.  No shame in that.  One of the interesting elements of this hobby.  For instance, shortly after I made the move for the Gustards, the LKS 004 was released.  Maybe I will sell one of the Gustards and replace with an LKS for L/R.  Is that really any different than a mod?  I would argue that it is not.

It might be interesting to some that I will soon take delivery of a PinkFaun Streamer.  This equipment features a MCH I2s card.  I am expecting that I2s will be a substantial upgrade over SPDIF.  Take a look at the power supply for that bad boy if you have a chance!

Great weekend!  Go Penguins.

 

Though I think the whole mod culture is specious snake oil, I used to think that Rick had some modicum of credibility above the fray, based on experience at other forums.    But, I no longer think that.  I agree with Exa, and I think Rick should not be here promoting himself in this thread unless he has an Exasound mod or unless he has extensive listening experience as an Exasound user.  Please consult the title of the thread.

 

So, Rick, you are now on my s..t list along with all the other moders.  And, jjkale, you are OT.  Please start a new thread.  But, there is no way you are going to convince me that mods are somehow "better" than any other snake oil.

[Ric Schultz]

Every change by a manufacturer or by someone else is a mod (modification).  So all new "models" are just mods of the past "model".  This is obvious. 

 

No one mods expensive gear.  I consider Exa expensive.  Nothing over $2000 gets modded any more.  It makes no sense.  If you want value then you mod an inexpensive thing with great potential.  If you mod an expensive thing then you will loose resale value.  If you mod an inexpensive thing then it does not matter whether its resale value is low.....you have practically nothing in it...including the price of the mod.  It all comes down to value.  If a modded inexpensive thing sounds way better than a stock expensive thing then you have serious value.  And with digital changing so fast, why would you want to spend big bucks when in six months someone else might come up with a DAC that is better "sounding" for one quarter the price?

 

What is interesting is that you have tons of people who "mod" cars.....and who have never ever built one from scratch.  However, at least you can measure the horsepower increase in a car.  The problem with audio is that there is no way to measure the better performance of something except by listening.  Lowering the distortion figure does not necessarily correlate to better sound.  This is where the problem is....You have the objectivists who believe in numbers and hate the tweakers (who tend to say that everything you do affects the sound....no matter what the measurements).  And you have the subjectivists who think that listening is key....or king.  I personally think that good measurements are nice....but just a start.....you have to listen.

 

Really what it comes down to is sound.  The only way to know if a modded cheaper thing sounds as good or better than a stock more expensive thing is to get both in house and listen.  If you do not do that then you know nothing!!!!! (I already told you I know nothing!!!).  You are just talking........So. if anyone wants to bring an Exa e32 here to A/B with a modded cheaper thang then give me a call.  You can determine (know) something with your ears.......at least for those that trust them.....However, some believe only in measurements....those people would not want to do a listening test (they already have there minds made up).

 

Snake oil for everyone!  Yum Yum....tastes so good!....sounds so good too!

[Bob Stern]

2 hours ago, Ric Schultz said:

No one mods expensive gear.  I consider Exa expensive.  Nothing over $2000 gets modded any more.  It makes no sense.  If you want value then you mod an inexpensive thing with great potential.  If you mod an expensive thing then you will loose resale value.  If you mod an inexpensive thing then it does not matter whether its resale value is low.

 

Thanks for succinctly explaining why you, as a modder, want to dissuade people from buying anything over $2000.  Now that you've made your point that exaSound gear is not a profitable candidate for your mods, I hope you will move to another thread.

 

One of the attributes that led me to purchase the e32 was the reputation of its predecessors for not requiring add-on devices.  There is almost universal agreement that its USB input is sufficiently well isolated that it does not benefit from USB Regen devices and the like, and most (but not all) users find no need for power supply upgrades due to its multiple voltage regulators, filters, and well-designed board layout.

[jtwrace]

9 hours ago, Ric Schultz said:

No one mods expensive gear.  I consider Exa expensive.  Nothing over $2000 gets modded any more.  It makes no sense. 

Right.  instead you encourage people to buy a $800 dac and then pay you $600+ in mods.  In the end you have zero objective data to backup any claims and am just swapping parts and believing your own craziness.  

 

I await your dac design...

 

Love,

jtwrace

[Kal Rubinson]

9 hours ago, Ric Schultz said:

The only way to know if a modded cheaper thing sounds as good or better than a stock more expensive thing is to get both in house and listen.  If you do not do that then you know nothing!!!!! (I already told you I know nothing!!!).  You are just talking........So. if anyone wants to bring an Exa e32 here to A/B with a modded cheaper thang then give me a call. 

Actually, the critical test is to directly compare the stock product and its modified version before introducing additional variables.  

[exa]

Here is my take on mods vs. making quality original design and implementing it without cutting corners.  

 

A good design is an integral whole, all pieces fit together and the result is more than the sum of the parts. It is like a mosaic, it is a complete picture that makes sense. Replace one piece and the picture is no longer one whole thing, it becomes distorted or broken.

 

Now consider a design that is made of the latest buzz-word components and technologies for the purpose to attract attention.  It is likely not a coherent, well integrated design.  It can be compared with the picture in a kaleidoscope.  There are shiny bits inside, but there is no complete picture.  Turn the kaleidoscope, the same components will make another picture that is different, (sounds different) but makes no sense.

 

Then make a mode to the buzz-word design, change one red sparkling piece with a blue one.  Change a red capacitor with a blue one. It is like turning the kaleidoscope, you will see (or hear) another fragmented picture.  For how long can you be entertained with different sparkling bits that make no coherent whole?

 

At exaSound we make mosaic designs.  Mosaic designs become broken when moded.  Kaleidoscopic designs can be endlessly moded and will never become integral, because the mod-guru can never apply a systematic design approach.

 

These ideas apply not only to audio, in general a fragmented view of the reality that lacks some adequate understanding the systematic principals of creation is called kaleidoscopic idiotism.

 

[elcorso]

I own an e22 Mark II and in my way to buy the e32. Own also some other brands.  exaSound DACs are the only that 'doesn't like' mods, like Regen, Intona, etc.

 

Roch

[1markr]

I agree with Roch.... I have had an E12 for a couple of years, and recently replaced it with the awesome E32. I have tried more than a few of the USB cleaner-uppers as mentioned in this thread, and always went back to no purifier. It's just better without any of them!

 

 

[johndoe21ro]

As far as I'm concerned the Paul Hynes LPS, the UpTone Regen and the AQ Diamond USB cable made significant improvements in my audio chain (that includes an exaSound e22 DAC)!

[louisxiawei]

19 minutes ago, johndoe21ro said:

As far as I'm concerned the Paul Hynes LPS, the UpTone Regen and the AQ Diamond USB cable made significant improvements in my audio chain (that includes an exaSound e22 DAC)!

I agree with Johndoe21ro,

 

Uptone regen + Intona gives great improvement to my exasound e12. When Uptone regen is powered by LPS-1, the enhancement is even much more obvious.

It's necessary to find a good LPS for exasound. I feed the exasound e12 with Sbooster BOTW 12V + Sbooster Ultra, also yield great result.