exaSound e18 - e20 - e28 - Info and Experiences Post All Here

[EuroDriver]

After listening for 4 hours over 2 days with my E20 MK III with 0.83 clock with various software running on my new Item Audio T1 PC, in the audition space of Sound Galleries in Monaco, Geoff Armstrong (owner of Sound Galleries and winner of a best sound room award at the recent Munich HiFi Deluxe companion show to Munich High End) and I came to the following consensus conclusions.

 

The ability to play native DSD256 is definitely worth having !

 

Redbook to DSD conversion - voices and acoustic instruments the big winners, more texture and detail

JRMC 19 Redbook > DSD 128 results are very good (CPU load 13%)

Foobar + SACD in Integer (?) mode > DSD 256 is even better, jaw dropping for me as I have never heard Redbook this good. We almost gave up on Foobar until we switched to non 32 bit Floating Point mode (therefore Integer mode ?) in the SACD plug-in, and then the SQ difference was night and day (CPU load 13%).

 

What was also interesting was comparing Foobar+SACD converting to DSD64 (waste of time, a wet blanket), DSD128 very good, slightly better than JRMC19, and then superb with DSD256 in a class by itself.

HQ Player is good but the CPU load is much higher (40 %) and this might be negatively impacting the sound we could get from HQ Player, the results were not as good as the other two players. We had expected HQ Player to be the best, further investigation and tweaking is required.

 

High Res to DSD conversion - small gains but not always

Here JRMC 19 was the clear winner converting 24/192 (PCM original source) to DSD 128. The improvement was noticeable and worthwhile.

Surprisingly Foobar + SACD did poorly with 24/192 even though it was going up to DSD256, damaging the sound in parts, and making the overall presentation inferior to the 24/192 being played straight which was jolly good, and thoroughly enjoyable already.

What was disastrous was 24/192 material which had been sourced from original DSD 64. The conversion of this material to DSD128 or DSD 256 was strident and unlistenable. It appears that the record company's effort to produce an attractive sound in 24/192 PCM from a DSD64 original including adding "stuff" to make it sound sharper more etched. This "stuff" then becomes poisonous when it's converted to DSD.

 

Native DSD playback - simply surberb, but watch out for the provenance !

We only had native DSD64 material. Played straight with Foobar and JRMC 19 it sounded surprisingly good. Much better than Redbook converted to DSD 64 and in a similar league to a Redbook converted to DSD 128. Then using Foobar to upsample to DSD128, the sound really sparkled. Then we up sampled to DSD256, and the sound was incredible. It's the best I have ever heard. Better than a Light Harmonic DSD setup I heard 3 years ago at the New York Show (I am sure LH have upped their game since then).

 

So the clear conclusion is it's definitely worth having a competent DSD DAC that can handle DSD256

 

A further finding is that DSD64 as a recording format may well be good enough. DSD 64 is not good enough as a playback format, but that is easily handled by software upsampling that seems to have no bad effects what so ever, and then sounds fantastic at DSD256. It seems that there are no sound damaging filters perceptible when the DAC is playing DSD256

 

The SACD track of Kind of Blue was sad, close to awful, the technology of converting to DSD was clearly in the dark ages. We don't know if it was done from master tapes or PCM remasters

 

I have been converted from being skeptical about the hassle and inconvenience of DSD recording, to now fully supporting DSD recording at source. Cookie Marenco is on to something, her ears are telling her something that a lot of male recording engineers and electronics wizzes do not want to hear, decimation is damaging !

 

The other thing we tried with good success was doing low frequency room correction (FabFilter) on the latest 24/192 remaster of Kind of Blue and then conversion to DSD128. Room correction seems to improve PRAT in a big way. We could not stop our feet from tapping. DSD 128 was then the icing, the additional clarity, the track sounded pristine. We got to have our cake and eat it too !

 

Summary

The E20 MK III is a very rewarding sound incubator of a DAC. The E20 facilitates the time and effort you invest in the software for signal processing and format conversion, and you will be repaid big time in sound quality and listening joy. The big differentiator is the ability to play DSD256, it's simply sounds that much better than DSD128 even though the original source is the same. The implementation of the volume control sounds excellent, there is no hint of sound quality loss at low volumes. We never felt we need to insert a good pre-amp into the chain.

 

The USB receiver and the ASIO Windows USB driver are clearly doing their job very well, no hiccups what so ever with native DSD 256 and 24/192.

 

All of the listening tests were done with the standard wall wart which is clearly competant, but we will be trying out some alternatives soon, battery and linear.

 

The total cost of the electronics and software of the whole chain is less than Euro 5,000 and the results are stunning. These are exciting times in Hi Fi

 

Playback hardware and OS notes

Item Audio T1, i5 quad core Ivy Bridge, SSD, Linear power supply > Win 8 ASIO > Exasound E20 > Hypex NCore 400 > KEF Blade

We are just starting to explore the tweaking possibilities with the Item T1. The i5 Quadcore seems to be a good recommendation by Mark Welsh. Powerful enough to handle format conversion, upsampling and room correction on the fly, but still staying comfortably cool and quiet with fanless heat pipe cooling provided by the Streamcon housing. Mark knows his stuff ! Coming up next is trying out Windows Server 2012 Essentials as the OS

 

Software Notes

Foobar 2000 with plug-in “Super Audio CD Decoder” programmed by Maxim Anisiutkin and ASIO Support components

Configuring Foobar2000 for ASIO DSD / DXD Playback with exaSound DACs. > exaSound Audio Design

 

This combination allows conversion of various PCM to DSD64, DSD128, and DSD256 with following a number of options:

SDM Type A through D

and

SDM Type A (FP32) through Type D (FP32)

 

Because Type D (FP32) is the final option and appears to be the most demanding of CPU, we initially tried that expecting it would yield the better results but were severely disappointed. Then we tried SDM Type D, i.e. no Floating Point 32 bit mode, which we think is probably integer mode.

 

DSD up-sampling.

The same Foobar + SACD combo allows DSD64 to be up-sampled to DSD128 or DSD256. The options for this DSD up-sampling are limited to SDM Type A through D integer modes. There are no Floating Point options for DSD up-sampling.

 

Room Correction filters

FabFilter Pro by Clayton Shaw of Spatial Audio,

Dimension EQ

 

Ears and the grey matter between them

Geoffrey is very experienced with over 30 years of serious listening and collecting content in every format that exists. He has his personal PS3 game console to do SACD rips to iso as well as turntables. Geoffrey is big into Pace Rhythm and Timing, and the emotional connection the music can make with the listener. With his previous professional IT career, Geoff is unrelenting in his pursuit of software improving the sonic experience as well as good value to the finest hardware. (He is a Grimm dealer)

 

Me, I am kid that will never grow up. Big into acoustic fireworks and detail, detail, detail. Breathing, fingers sliding over strings, audience whistling float my boat. I am very sensitive to any kind of degradation of high frequencies. I am also pretty timbre sensitive, the harmonics and tones have to sound right.

 

Hope the above is helpful to fellow sound hounds

[Miska]

HQ Player is good but the CPU load is much higher (40 %) and this might be negatively impacting the sound we could get from HQ Player, the results were not as good as the other two players. We had expected HQ Player to be the best, further investigation and tweaking is required.

 

Which filter and modulator did you use? I recommend using poly-sinc family of filters, non-2s versions are technically better quality but heavier while the 2s variants have lower CPU load. With this DAC I would assume DSD5.1 (to be renamed to DSD5v2) modulator to give best results, although I have not measured this DAC.

 

DSD up-sampling

 

HQPlayer also has this option if you disable the "DirectSDM" setting in DSDIFF/DSF Settings dialog. (it also gives digital volume control, loudspeaker distance/level adjustments, convolution engine, etc.)

[Geoffrey Armstrong]

Hi Miska,

 

I always use the poly-sinc family. The actual filter was poly-sinc-short-mp. I basically tried to use the best filter's I could get away with, meaning that would give reliable playback. I could not get reliable playback with poly-sinc and poly-sinc-short.

 

For noise shaping dithering, I was using DSD7 and prior to that DSD7 256+FS.

 

I have just tried poly-sinc-2s which in it's non 2s version wouldn't play reliably. It's sounding very sweet (in a good way) with that added sense of space.

 

CPU has dropped from around 40 with poly-sinc-short-mp to just under 30 with poly-sinc-2s.

 

I think it's great that you provide so many different filters and noise shaping options and most of these are described very well in the manual. Knowing which to use with a particular DAC and PC set-up will always involve a certain amount of trial and error though.

 

I will give the 2s versions of the filters a try, combined with DSD5.1.

 

I have now disabled DirectSDM in the DSDIFF/DSF Settings Dialog; but I am not able to up-sample DSD. Playback remains at the native rate of the file.

 

Finally, I am interested in getting room correction working with DSDIFF/DSF files. Can you advise what format and sampling rate to use for the impulse response files for the various channels?

 

I believe it is possible to apply room correction to DSD in HQPlayer, right? If so, I'd really like to try it.

 

Thanks for your input.

 

Geoff

[Miska]

I always use the poly-sinc family. The actual filter was poly-sinc-short-mp. I basically tried to use the best filter's I could get away with, meaning that would give reliable playback. I could not get reliable playback with poly-sinc and poly-sinc-short.

 

This is the order in terms of CPU load from heaviest to lightest:

1) poly-sinc-hb

2) poly-sinc and poly-sinc-mp (equal load)

3) poly-sinc-short and poly-sinc-short-mp (equal load)

4) poly-sinc-hb-2s

5) poly-sinc-2s and poly-sinc-mp-2s (equal load)

6) poly-sinc-short-2s and poly-sinc-short-mp-2s (equal load)

7) minringFIR (not really recommended)

 

The -hb "half-band" and minringFIR are non-apodizing while the others are apodizing.

 

For noise shaping dithering, I was using DSD7 and prior to that DSD7 256+FS.

 

This is technically better than the fifth order, but it depends on a DAC if it manages to still keep ultrasonic noise at similar levels as fifth order. DSD5.1 (and it's x256 variant) is pretty good (IMO) too and may give better results depending on DAC.

 

Knowing which to use with a particular DAC and PC set-up will always involve a certain amount of trial and error though.

 

Yes, definitely...

 

I have now disabled DirectSDM in the DSDIFF/DSF Settings Dialog; but I am not able to up-sample DSD. Playback remains at the native rate of the file.

 

When it is disabled, you should be able to select different output sampling rate in the main window... Also volume control becomes active.

 

Finally, I am interested in getting room correction working with DSDIFF/DSF files. Can you advise what format and sampling rate to use for the impulse response files for the various channels?

 

You need mono WAVs, but other than that it doesn't matter much. I would recommend using highest sampling rate supported by the filter creation software.

 

I believe it is possible to apply room correction to DSD in HQPlayer, right? If so, I'd really like to try it.

 

Yes... For DSD64 sources it is still within tolerable CPU load, for DSD128 or DSD256 it will require really hefty amounts of CPU power.

[Geoffrey Armstrong]

Thanks for that useful summary of the filters and their CPU demands.

 

I am enjoying the results of poly-sinc-2s and DSD5.1 at the moment. Will compare the same filter with the two DSD7 options.

 

This is with red book converted to DSD at DSD256 via the exasound.

 

Unfortunately I am still not able to up-sample DSD. Even after defeating SDM Direct, the front window is not allowing me to choose anything other than the native sample rate.

 

This is an evaluation copy on a new machine belonging to eurodriver; but I believe it's fully functional, right?

 

Thanks also for the advise on Convolution. I tried to export mono wav impulse responses from Fuzzmeasure on Mac; but the result sounded awful (echo-y, phase-y). This was after measurements were taken in preparation for room correction via the FabFilterPro Q parametric equaliser, which works very well within J River or Foobar for converted to DSD or PCM material.

 

Can you share with me which program you use for producing your Impulse responses for use in HQPlayer?

 

Thanks again,

 

Geoff

[Miska]

Unfortunately I am still not able to up-sample DSD. Even after defeating SDM Direct, the front window is not allowing me to choose anything other than the native sample rate.

 

This is an evaluation copy on a new machine belonging to eurodriver; but I believe it's fully functional, right?

 

Evaluation is fully functional. You need to select some non-2s filter, because 2s filters have a check that the conversion ratio is higher than 8x...

 

I tried to export mono wav impulse responses from Fuzzmeasure on Mac; but the result sounded awful (echo-y, phase-y).

 

Could you email me one of such? I could check what is the problem...

 

Can you share with me which program you use for producing your Impulse responses for use in HQPlayer?

 

I have tested with RoomEqWizard and Acourate generated filters. Some users have been using Audiolense, but that requires some extra work to split out stereo filter WAV to two mono WAVs (can be done with Audacity).

[Geoffrey Armstrong]

Evaluation is fully functional. You need to select some non-2s filter, because 2s filters have a check that the conversion ratio is higher than 8x...

 

Got it and now working great up-sampling to DSD256 (Rachel Podger) Sounding really fine and mellow

 

CPU back around 40.

 

 

Could you email me one of such? I could check what is the problem...

 

Will do, thanks again!

 

I have tested with RoomEqWizard and Acourate generated filters. Some users have been using Audiolense, but that requires some extra work to split out stereo filter WAV to two mono WAVs (can be done with Audacity).

 

Perhaps the problem lies with Fuzzmeasure. We'll see.

 

Geoff

[bmoura]

The ability to play native DSD256 is definitely worth having !

 

Native DSD playback - simply surberb, but watch out for the provenance !

We only had native DSD64 material. Played straight with Foobar and JRMC 19 it sounded surprisingly good. Much better than Redbook converted to DSD 64 and in a similar league to a Redbook converted to DSD 128. Then using Foobar to upsample to DSD128, the sound really sparkled. Then we up sampled to DSD256, and the sound was incredible. It's the best I have ever heard. Better than a Light Harmonic DSD setup I heard 3 years ago at the New York Show (I am sure LH have upped their game since then).

 

So the clear conclusion is it's definitely worth having a competent DSD DAC that can handle DSD256

 

A further finding is that DSD64 as a recording format may well be good enough. DSD 64 is not good enough as a playback format, but that is easily handled by software upsampling that seems to have no bad effects what so ever, and then sounds fantastic at DSD256. It seems that there are no sound damaging filters perceptible when the DAC is playing DSD256

 

 

If you're experimenting with the various DSD resolution modes on the exaSound e20 (I have an exaSound e28 here), check out the Free DSD downloads over at the "Just Listen" section of NativeDSD.Com

https://justlisten.nativedsd.com/albums/just-listen-1-compilation

 

They have 8 files in native and resampled resolutions from DSD64 to DSD256 in both Stereo and Multichannel. Includes Jazz, Latin, Classical Guitar music. Found it helpful - and of course, exaSound is one of the few companies with DACs even supporting DSD256!

[jaffar]

Hi George, Miska and all,

 

I have some questions on how the e28 DAC operate internally and its compatibility with HQPlayer.

 

I need to know how e28 handles various sample rates. Does it perform ASRC in the 9018 chip?

 

I know that ASRC is detrimental to sound quality and in a truly 'high-end' DAC the clocking should be synchronous with independent 44.1- and 48k-based oscillators.

 

Regarding DSD.

How does the e28 handle the native DSD stream - does it convert DSD to PCM internally in order to do volume control?

I've read some comments stating the 9018 chip converts everything to 6-bit SDM for internal processing, but I'm unsure.

Which output format should I use in order to extract maximum performance from the e28?

Is there a way to disable all DSP/ASRC functions of the 9018 chip?

 

I strongly believe that filters implemented in HQPlayer are much better than internal ones in the 9018.

 

Thanks!

[exa]

Hi George, Miska and all,

 

I have some questions on how the e28 DAC operate internally and its compatibility with HQPlayer.

 

 

Hello Jafar,

 

We all have our strong beliefs about what is a truly-high-end DAC:)

 

There are many speculations out there about the volume implementation of the 9018 chip and the trade-offs of using ASRC vs. synchronous operation. We've done our research, we use three oscillators and we've designed a solution that is customized for every sampling rate and data format. You can check the measurements on our website, the testimonials from other users and you can decide if it is worth trying our DACs. We have a 30-days return policy.

 

The ES9018 chip is an outstanding product. It can be used in many different ways and it continues to support innovation. Different implementations based on this chip sound very different. Lately I've seen it attacked with somewhat shallow arguments, for example in the PS Audio white paper. The amount of research invested in the ES9018 chip cannot be easily surpassed by small-scale efforts.

 

The HQ Player opens the door for exciting experiments, it has the advantage of being upgradable and it benefits from ever-increasing CPU resources. The exaSound custom drivers always stream in the native format and sampling rate of the player output. The data supplied by the HQ player will be delivered bit-perfect to the ES9018 chip. Setting the DAC volume to 0dB eliminates volume processing in the chip, so you can experiment with other means of volume control.

 

Best,

[exa]

Hi George, Miska and all,

 

I have some questions on how the e28 DAC operate internally and its compatibility with HQPlayer.

 

 

Hello Jaffar,

 

We all have our strong beliefs about what is a truly-high-end DAC:)

 

There are many speculations out there about the volume implementation of the 9018 chip and the trade-offs of using ASRC vs. synchronous operation. We've done our research, we use three oscillators and we've designed a solution that is customized for every sampling rate and data format. You can check the measurements on our website, the testimonials from other users and you can decide if it is worth trying our DACs. We have a 30-days return policy.

 

The ES9018 chip is an outstanding product. It can be used in many different ways and it continues to support innovation. Different implementations based on this chip sound very different. Lately I've seen it attacked with somewhat shallow arguments, for example in the PS Audio white paper. The amount of research invested in the ES9018 chip cannot be easily surpassed by small-scale efforts.

 

The HQ Player opens the door for exciting experiments, it has the advantage of being upgradable and it benefits from ever-increasing CPU resources. The exaSound custom drivers always stream in the native format and sampling rate of the player output. The data supplied by the HQ player will be delivered bit-perfect to the ES9018 chip. Setting the DAC volume to 0dB eliminates volume processing in the chip, so you can experiment with other means of volume control.

 

Best,

[elcorso]

If you're experimenting with the various DSD resolution modes on the exaSound e20 (I have an exaSound e28 here), check out the Free DSD downloads over at the "Just Listen" section of NativeDSD.Com

https://justlisten.nativedsd.com/albums/just-listen-1-compilation

 

They have 8 files in native and resampled resolutions from DSD64 to DSD256 in both Stereo and Multichannel. Includes Jazz, Latin, Classical Guitar music. Found it helpful - and of course, exaSound is one of the few companies with DACs even supporting DSD256!

 

Last night I was listening (again, again & again) Ricardo GALLEN, Fernando SOR, Guitar Sonatas, Study, with my exaSound e22, Audirvana Plus & Mac Mini on DSD256. And I'm still admired because it was a live guitar and guitarist in my listening room.

 

We urgently need more music in this resolution with this DAC.

 

Cheers!

 

Roch

[bmoura]

Last night I was listening (again, again & again) Ricardo GALLEN, Fernando SOR, Guitar Sonatas, Study, with my exaSound e22, Audirvana Plus & Mac Mini on DSD256. And I'm still admired because it was a live guitar and guitarist in my listening room.

 

We urgently need more music in this resolution with this DAC.

 

Cheers!

 

Roch

 

Agreed. That's quite a recording - especially in Multichannel DSD256. Love it!

Looking forward to the DSD256 files coming to Native DSD.Com soon.

[EuroDriver]

An update on the comparison JRMC19, Foobar+SACD, and HQ Player doing Redbook to DSD conversion

 

I had a chance to have a quick listen to HQ Player with Poly-sinc-2s with DSD7 settings for Redbook to DSD256 playing into the E20 Mk III

 

The sound is simply amazing. CPU load was 30% so quite comfortable for the quadcore i5.

 

For Redbook to DSD256, HQ player is in a class by itself.

 

We then used HQ Player to upsample DSD64 to DSD256 also using the DSD7 filter, the sound quality, the clarity, air, sense of space, you name it, the reproduction was faultless.

 

Again no hint what so ever of malign volume control in effect.

 

It will be interesting to compare A+ playing DSD256 with HQP playing DSD 256 as well as upsampling from DSD 64 to DSD256

[matthias]

Last night I was listening (again, again & again) Ricardo GALLEN, Fernando SOR, Guitar Sonatas, Study, with my exaSound e22, Audirvana Plus & Mac Mini on DSD256. And I'm still admired because it was a live guitar and guitarist in my listening room.

We urgently need more music in this resolution with this DAC.

Cheers!

Roch

 

Indeed,

DSD256 is the new Gold Standard. We need more DSD256 DACs.

 

Matt

[wisnon]

We dont even have enough DSD128. 256 will NOT happen commercially.

[matthias]

We dont even have enough DSD128. 256 will NOT happen commercially.

 

To be clear:

Every DAC should be able to playback DSD256. PCM and lower resolution DSD can be converted or upsampled to DSD256 by software.

 

Matt

[wisnon]

To be clear:

Every DAC should be able to playback DSD256. PCM and lower resolution DSD can be converted or upsampled to DSD256 by software.

 

Matt

 

Why? DSD128 is the sweetspot. Above that the file sizes become obscene and I prefer listening at native rate for DSD and upsampling to DSD256 over 128 brings marginal if any benefit. I prefer concentrating on the QUALITY of the DSD playback.

 

Anyway, I was really answering El Corso who asked for more native rate 256 commercially. Wont happen in any quantity, commercially.

[matthias]

Why? DSD128 is the sweetspot. Above that the file sizes become obscene and I prefer listening at native rate for DSD and upsampling to DSD256 over 128 brings marginal if any benefit. I prefer concentrating on the QUALITY of the DSD playback.

 

Some other experiences:

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/exasound-e18-e20-e28-info-and-experiences-post-all-here-17190/index12.html#post325575

 

Matt

[Sam Lord]

An update on the comparison JRMC19, Foobar+SACD, and HQ Player doing Redbook to DSD conversion

 

I had a chance to have a quick listen to HQ Player with Poly-sinc-2s with DSD7 settings for Redbook to DSD256 playing into the E20 Mk III

 

Eurodriver, what is your server? I have a 16GB i5 Mac Mini running JRMC on OSX 10.9

I installed HQPlayer and will try it shortly to send PCM converted by HQP to DSD128 to an Oppo 105D via Ethernet and a SOtM SMS100 server running HQPlayer's NAA firmware (whew, sorry!). I just want to be sure my server is up for the job. Thanks!

 

We dont even have enough DSD128. 256 will NOT happen commercially.

 

As somebody said earlier, a well-made DSD64 recording benefits from DSD128 or 256 *very much* so I want to try that. My Oppo handles DSD128 so I'll try that until the point I get a topnotch DAC, though the Oppo is very good.

[wisnon]

Some other experiences:

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/exasound-e18-e20-e28-info-and-experiences-post-all-here-17190/index12.html#post325575

 

Matt

Matt,

 

I have printed that but not read it yet. Later..

[bmoura]

We dont even have enough DSD128. 256 will NOT happen commercially.

 

Native DSD has already posted free music files in DSD256 and has announced they plan to sell albums in DSD256 as a special request item.

 

So I think the question is more one of how many albums get released in DSD256. That's different than "256 will not happen commerically". It will - and it's already been announced.

 

dsd

[tgx78]

How do you upsample pcm to DSD 256fs in HQ Player? I tried every different settings, but it seems I can only upsample to DXD.

 

[Miska]

How do you upsample pcm to DSD 256fs in HQ Player? I tried every different settings, but it seems I can only upsample to DXD.

 

When you start it in ASIO mode as shown in your screenshot, you can select output format between PCM and SDM (DSD) in the main window. In your screenshot you have PCM output selected.

 

All the settings look correct.

[tgx78]

Thanks Miska.. Finally got it to work now

 

and..

 

Oh WOW!

 

Sound quality is unbelievably good. (especially for redbook converted to DSD256.. I never heard them better, even on Chord Hugo)