Savage Posted September 28, 2013 Share Posted September 28, 2013 Barrows, I think they're exploring ESS chips for future projects. I'd think, changing from TI to ESS DAC at this stage would be a rather complicated design change. They've worked on Geek Prototypes for a year. I imagine at this point they would be done with listening to prototypes and about to send the final version to manufacturing. I guess someone could ask Larry Ho to be sure. Still not sure if they have finalized this, here is one of the original quotes from Larry Ho [h=3]Larry Ho on Sep 18[/h]@YK Gee... We need a quote system here... If you could (or want), please ask question on facebook. That is easier... Here is my answer for DAC IC selection: Yes, I have tested all flagship IC from TI, ESS, AKM and CS. The interesting result I found is: don't just compare the data sheet numbers, the surrounding power supply and analog stage circuitry impacts more than the DAC selection. Currently, we pick TI (Burr Brown) IC. But as I wrote in another message: We have a strong competitor here, the new ESS mobile DAC IC. Will keep you guys posted for the final selection. Larry Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not." — Nelson Pass Link to comment
Jud Posted September 28, 2013 Share Posted September 28, 2013 Why do you say that their drivers will not support KS? Because I asked Gavin, who passed along Larry Ho's very definitive response. One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
rdsu Posted September 28, 2013 Share Posted September 28, 2013 Because I asked Gavin, who passed along Larry Ho's very definitive response. I talked with Larry and he told me he doesn't like KS... Maybe we can still use KS with Windows drivers? Link to comment
labjr Posted September 28, 2013 Share Posted September 28, 2013 I'd love for them to use the ESS DAC. They'd probably have to write new drivers and firmware etc. Power supply design would have to better. Be like starting over. Link to comment
Jud Posted September 28, 2013 Share Posted September 28, 2013 I talked with Larry and he told me he doesn't like KS... Maybe we can still use KS with Windows drivers? How, if the driver Geek plans to use for Windows won't support it? One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
rdsu Posted September 28, 2013 Share Posted September 28, 2013 How, if the driver Geek plans to use for Windows won't support it? Damn! Link to comment
Jud Posted September 28, 2013 Share Posted September 28, 2013 Damn! Hah! Yes, exactly. Because the question I asked was not the more general "How do you feel about KS?", but specifically, "Will the Windows driver for Geek support KS?" One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
Hiro Posted September 28, 2013 Share Posted September 28, 2013 I'd love for them to use the ESS DAC. They'd probably have to write new drivers and firmware etc. Power supply design would have to better. Be like starting over. FYI. The new Marantz Reference Network Player/USB DAC NA-11S1 uses TI chips (1792) and it received a glowing review from Stereophile. Wish John Atkinson compared it to the Oppo players, for example, that use ESS chips. Marantz Reference NA-11S1 Network Audio Player/DAC | Stereophile.com The reference DAC from Luxman (DA-06) is also utilizing TI 1792 chips. http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/525-luxman-da-06-dac-review/ Link to comment
Miska Posted September 28, 2013 Share Posted September 28, 2013 Hah! Yes, exactly. Because the question I asked was not the more general "How do you feel about KS?", but specifically, "Will the Windows driver for Geek support KS?" But why KS? It was never official way of doing things and now WASAPI Exclusive gives cleaner interface... Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers Link to comment
rdsu Posted September 28, 2013 Share Posted September 28, 2013 But why KS? It was never official way of doing things and now WASAPI Exclusive gives cleaner interface... To me is because I use JPlay, and they have more features for KS... Link to comment
rdsu Posted September 28, 2013 Share Posted September 28, 2013 I just spoke with Larry Ho about KS, and he said that is possible... Link to comment
Jud Posted September 29, 2013 Share Posted September 29, 2013 I just spoke with Larry Ho about KS, and he said that is possible... Very nice if it happens, hope so.... One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
Jud Posted September 29, 2013 Share Posted September 29, 2013 But why KS? It was never official way of doing things and now WASAPI Exclusive gives cleaner interface... 'Cause I like options, and one is this software built by this crazy Dutchman.... So perhaps I will have to explore further some software built by a not-quite-so-crazy Finn. One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
Superdad Posted September 29, 2013 Share Posted September 29, 2013 'Cause I like options, and one is this software built by this crazy Dutchman.... So perhaps I will have to explore further some software built by a not-quite-so-crazy Finn. What Jud, you're not 100% fulfilled by the simple and sublime software from our charming Frenchman? (Tried version 1.5.9 for the first time last night; Wow, made my head spin! Called into question a lot about the nature of some beloved recordings. Still trying to wrap my head around this radical new direction.) UpTone Audio LLC Link to comment
Miska Posted September 29, 2013 Share Posted September 29, 2013 'Cause I like options, and one is this software built by this crazy Dutchman.... Doesn't it support WASAPI? I thought it did. KS was only necessary on WinXP and earlier for direct access if there was no ASIO driver available. But on Vista Microsoft reworked the entire audio architecture and introduced WASAPI. My preferred way is still proper ASIO driver. Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers Link to comment
Larry Ho Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 Larry here. Working on our new exploration for ESS IC now, in this stage, actually it doubles our works because we need to redesign power supply stage, digital input lines and IV conversion stage. After this, I could confidently say if changing is better or not. PCM1795 is not bad, not bad at all. Actually we just have an international reviewer go to our listening room, he really dropped his jaw when he listen to DSD music with Geek Out (Super-Duper Geek) + HD800. ;-) I would love to invite more good brain and friends to involve our development process. Not only kickstarter, but also Computeraudiophile! Larry --- Engineer, programmer, entrepreneur and music lover Light Harmonic Labs http://www.Lightharmonic.com http://www.facebook.com/LightHarmonic Link to comment
Jud Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 Doesn't it support WASAPI? I thought it did. KS was only necessary on WinXP and earlier for direct access if there was no ASIO driver available. But on Vista Microsoft reworked the entire audio architecture and introduced WASAPI. My preferred way is still proper ASIO driver. It does, but that's not, to paraphrase what you said about ASIO, the preferred way. One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
Jud Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 What Jud, you're not 100% fulfilled by the simple and sublime software from our charming Frenchman? (Tried version 1.5.9 for the first time last night; Wow, made my head spin! Called into question a lot about the nature of some beloved recordings. Still trying to wrap my head around this radical new direction.) I know this is a friendly question that doesn't necessarily require an answer, but I thought I'd give one anyway. I love that software (Audirvana Plus). I also love additional exploration and options, like PeterSt's and Miska's software. Each of them, while sharing some design principles and goals, has unique aspects that I want to be able to hear reproducing my favorite music. The limitations imposed by drivers that don't permit using any of these options at its best (e.g., DACs with custom OS X drivers that don't allow direct or integer modes with Audirvana Plus) restrict my ability to fully explore my audio (and intellectual) curiosity. One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
labjr Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 Larry here. Working on our new exploration for ESS IC now, in this stage, actually it doubles our works because we need to redesign power supply stage, digital input lines and IV conversion stage. After this, I could confidently say if changing is better or not. PCM1795 is not bad, not bad at all. Actually we just have an international reviewer go to our listening room, he really dropped his jaw when he listen to DSD music with Geek Out (Super-Duper Geek) + HD800. ;-) I would love to invite more good brain and friends to involve our development process. Not only kickstarter, but also Computeraudiophile! Larry Hi Larry, Thanks for your comments. Are you possibly going to use the ESS DAC in the Geek? I would welcome it if it's an improvement, but I had thought the design was pretty much done for this product? Link to comment
Savage Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 Larry here. Working on our new exploration for ESS IC now, in this stage, actually it doubles our works because we need to redesign power supply stage, digital input lines and IV conversion stage. After this, I could confidently say if changing is better or not. PCM1795 is not bad, not bad at all. Actually we just have an international reviewer go to our listening room, he really dropped his jaw when he listen to DSD music with Geek Out (Super-Duper Geek) + HD800. ;-) I would love to invite more good brain and friends to involve our development process. Not only kickstarter, but also Computeraudiophile! Larry Hello Larry, thanks for the update. Welcome to CA Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not." — Nelson Pass Link to comment
filhodoassis Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 Portable DAC WARS: The Chip Within ESS 9010-2M - HERUS | Resonessence TI PCM1795 - Must Geek Out: GEEK vs. the Others, v2 Measures prety much the same, THD+N around 90db. I think in DSD mode, PCM1795 wins, with ANALOG fir filter, but no digital volume, as it should be. Link to comment
labjr Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 Portable DAC WARS: The Chip WithinESS 9010-2M - HERUS | Resonessence TI PCM1795 - Must Geek Out: GEEK vs. the Others, v2 Measures prety much the same, THD+N around 90db. I think in DSD mode, PCM1795 wins, with ANALOG fir filter, but no digital volume, as it should be. Implementation is probably more important than the DAC chip itself. Products with ESS Sabre DACs are getting great reviews. Especially DSD playback. Link to comment
barrows Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 Portable DAC WARS: The Chip WithinESS 9010-2M - HERUS | Resonessence TI PCM1795 - Must Geek Out: GEEK vs. the Others, v2 Measures prety much the same, THD+N around 90db. I think in DSD mode, PCM1795 wins, with ANALOG fir filter, but no digital volume, as it should be. Personally, I do not agree. the sound difference is not all in those numbers. The ESS DACs has a different modulator design which greatly reduces the inter transient noise common to most DS chips, to my ears it has a distinct advantage, not that the 1795 is bad though… Also agree with labor above: power supply and output stage design will influence the sound more than the choice between these two chips. But I still would prefer the ESS, and then as good a supply and output stage as possible. SO/ROON/HQPe: DSD 512-Sonore opticalModuleDeluxe-Signature Rendu optical with Well Tempered Clock--DIY DSC-2 DAC with SC Pure Clock--DIY Purifi Amplifier-Focus Audio FS888 speakers-JL E 112 sub-Nordost Tyr USB, DIY EventHorizon AC cables, Iconoclast XLR & speaker cables, Synergistic Purple Fuses, Spacetime system clarifiers. ISOAcoustics Oreas footers. SONORE computer audio | opticalRendu | ultraRendu | microRendu | Signature Rendu SE | Accessories | Software | Link to comment
Miska Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 Implementation is probably more important than the DAC chip itself. Products with ESS Sabre DACs are getting great reviews. Especially DSD playback. For DSD I would rather take the TI chip since it can work as a pure D/A converter and has pretty good performance doing so. While ESS always runs DSD through it's DSP engine. For PCM it is not as clear cut, since ESS is pure D-S while TI is kind of hybrid, ESS giving pretty good PCM performance. I personally still prefer CS4398 when both PCM and DSD are needed, assuming that the chip is run in Direct DSD mode and has a proper DSD-optimized analog filter stage. Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers Link to comment
labjr Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 I ordered several Geek DACs for myself and friends. I would love to see the ESS chip in it. However, I imagine I'll be happy with whatever DAC is used in the end. BTW, do the mobile versions have all the same features as a ES9018 would. Did they leave anything out besides 6 of the 8 channels? Link to comment
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