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ANOTHER Example of Why I HATE DSD and Why Customers Who Bought Sony's Boloney Are So Annoying


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I'm not so sure about that! On the other hand, none of my audiophile friends do audiophile MCH. Anyway it's off topic...

 

I'm, sick of people telling me how I should listen to my files. I purchased every single one of them. Is that hacking? I'm tired of people telling me that stereo is better than multichannel. It's none of anybodies business how I want to listen to my music. Anyway. Why should anybody else tell me I should play them "their way"? Thats been the hifi industries major problem all along. It's this attitude.."well you *have* to do it like this"....because we know what's best for you.. Well if mankind thought like that, we would all still be living in caves listening to some sort of live cave chant around the camp fire. There would be no recorded music at all!!! It's pathetic this "I know better than you" attitude. Congrats on your stereo Lumin. For having the balls to make it. Now can you please just make a Multichannel version of the Lumin that does gapless DSD/PCM? I'll be our first customer.

New simplified setup: STEREO- Primary listening Area: Cullen Circuits Mod ZP90> Benchmark DAC1>RotelRKB250 Power amp>KEF Q Series. Secondary listening areas: 1/ QNAP 119P II(running MinimServer)>UPnP>Linn Majik DSI>Linn Majik 140's. 2/ (Source awaiting)>Invicta DAC>RotelRKB2100 Power amp>Rega's. Tertiary multiroom areas: Same QNAP>SMB>Sonos>Various. MULTICHANNEL- MacMini>A+(Standalone mode)>Exasound e28 >5.1 analog out>Yamaha Avantage Receiver>Pre-outs>Linn Chakra power amps>Linn Katan front and sides. Linn Trikan Centre. Velodyne SPL1000 Ultra

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I anticipated this response. If your software can do in DSD domain what say Trinnov or Dirac can do with PCM you need to talk to a venture capitalist and bring this to market quickly.

 

I second that. Just get on and do it. Cheers.

New simplified setup: STEREO- Primary listening Area: Cullen Circuits Mod ZP90> Benchmark DAC1>RotelRKB250 Power amp>KEF Q Series. Secondary listening areas: 1/ QNAP 119P II(running MinimServer)>UPnP>Linn Majik DSI>Linn Majik 140's. 2/ (Source awaiting)>Invicta DAC>RotelRKB2100 Power amp>Rega's. Tertiary multiroom areas: Same QNAP>SMB>Sonos>Various. MULTICHANNEL- MacMini>A+(Standalone mode)>Exasound e28 >5.1 analog out>Yamaha Avantage Receiver>Pre-outs>Linn Chakra power amps>Linn Katan front and sides. Linn Trikan Centre. Velodyne SPL1000 Ultra

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Erik..yes, we are saying the exact same thing. It is what I do. My point to Hiro is that most of us don't use our daily general-use computers for servers, and that we would not need to put it in our setup and out of our setup on a daily basis. Mine is an i7-based WS 2012, behind the 2 channel setup, in a nice little Streamcom case, with heatpipes.. And then to think that a streamer is not a computer...well that is just marketing.

 

I know it's semantics and you are correct a NAS and a streamer are a computer..so is a Router and a switch if you want to take the analogy that far! Anyway a working UPnP set up has the advantage of the centralised NAS. The source being along way away from the player. With internet radio streaming as you know this can even be thousands of KM away. Anyway, this also has the obvious advantages of smaller footprint..just doing *one* dedicated task (music serving) and one file server for multiple players with control from any device away from the NAS. Yes you are right a laptop running Jriver can do this as well. But if some folks just want to build a tiny dedicated NAS server and push/pull the files to the player, well why not?...It's certainly very cost effective, uses little power, even easy to do wirelessly. It's flexible and there is something very pure and simple about it... each to there own I guess. Why not cater for both markets?

New simplified setup: STEREO- Primary listening Area: Cullen Circuits Mod ZP90> Benchmark DAC1>RotelRKB250 Power amp>KEF Q Series. Secondary listening areas: 1/ QNAP 119P II(running MinimServer)>UPnP>Linn Majik DSI>Linn Majik 140's. 2/ (Source awaiting)>Invicta DAC>RotelRKB2100 Power amp>Rega's. Tertiary multiroom areas: Same QNAP>SMB>Sonos>Various. MULTICHANNEL- MacMini>A+(Standalone mode)>Exasound e28 >5.1 analog out>Yamaha Avantage Receiver>Pre-outs>Linn Chakra power amps>Linn Katan front and sides. Linn Trikan Centre. Velodyne SPL1000 Ultra

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Look this discussion is very much relevant to the original poster's sentiments. Sony's problem all along with DSD is they tied it down to SACD. And by doing so they left the processing magic (all the filtering, dithering and volume control etc) that is being discussed in this thread in the SACD player itself. Well that might have been fine initially. Trouble was, the whole world moved on and started listening to music in a totally different (disc-less) way. And SONY DID NOT follow and move DSD with the times... Now why this happened has all been discussed on multiple other threads I know (so it is irrelevant to this thread), but that is the reality. This is relevant to the OP'rs comments "Why customer's who bought the Sony Boloney are so annoying".. because times have changed folks. People don't listen to disc playback much any more. The fact is Sony never gave us the disc-less player we all wanted. That is one of the reasons there has been an explosion in dedicated DAC's! LOL....Chuckie 'ol son at Ayre?.. Nope. You would have never been in business and this thread wouldn't have even been started in the first place! hahahaha. Threads like this are actually doing Sony a favour. Maybe one day. ONE day they will make us the dedicated player we are after..Or put the technology into one of their fantastic hifi quality multichannel receivers. If they do this, I will be one of the first to buy it. Along with hundreds of thousands of other folks is my guess. Anyway. Rock on. Wap.

New simplified setup: STEREO- Primary listening Area: Cullen Circuits Mod ZP90> Benchmark DAC1>RotelRKB250 Power amp>KEF Q Series. Secondary listening areas: 1/ QNAP 119P II(running MinimServer)>UPnP>Linn Majik DSI>Linn Majik 140's. 2/ (Source awaiting)>Invicta DAC>RotelRKB2100 Power amp>Rega's. Tertiary multiroom areas: Same QNAP>SMB>Sonos>Various. MULTICHANNEL- MacMini>A+(Standalone mode)>Exasound e28 >5.1 analog out>Yamaha Avantage Receiver>Pre-outs>Linn Chakra power amps>Linn Katan front and sides. Linn Trikan Centre. Velodyne SPL1000 Ultra

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I know it's semantics and you are correct a NAS and a streamer are a computer..so is a Router and a switch if you want to take the analogy that far! Anyway a working UPnP set up has the advantage of the centralised NAS. The source being along way away from the player. With internet radio streaming as you know this can even be thousands of KM away. Anyway, this also has the obvious advantages of smaller footprint..just doing *one* dedicated task (music serving) and one file server for multiple players with control from any device away from the NAS. Yes you are right a laptop running Jriver can do this as well. But if some folks just want to build a tiny dedicated NAS server and push/pull the files to the player, well why not?...It's certainly very cost effective, uses little power, even easy to do wirelessly. It's flexible and there is something very pure and simple about it... each to there own I guess. Why not cater for both markets?

 

You can make a strong case for and against streaming. A DAC that supports streaming need to packs a lot of logic in proprietary on-board hardware/software. Enhancing features, supporting new codes, streaming content providers etc. all need to be implemented through firmware upgrades. Alternatively you can let a general purpose computer do the heavy lifting. New features are just a software upgrade. The content can sit on a local drive, a NAS or may come in through the Internet - does not matter. You can separately optimize the USB, S/PDIF or AES/EBU feed to the computer. This is inherently a far more flexible architecture, but more components and complexity. There will be room for both. I personally have no preference one way or the other - whatever meets my needs and sounds best.

 

I will soon do a shootout between the SOTA USB route (battery powered CAPS 3.0 USB into my MSB DAC), against the SOTA streaming route (Oppo 103 based MSB UMT plus transport I2S into my MSB DAC), and report what sounds better. If the streaming route prevails, my CAPS goes on audiogon.

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^ Thanks for the great comment. 100% agree. Whatever meets ones needs. Look forward to the test..BTW what is that Oppo set up>? Is it really a simple streaming set up? I just feed the files straight from a NAS into an Oppo 105 via ethernet..That includes DSD via SMB. In effect the DAC chip in the Oppo is being fed the files right off the disc in the NAS is it not?

New simplified setup: STEREO- Primary listening Area: Cullen Circuits Mod ZP90> Benchmark DAC1>RotelRKB250 Power amp>KEF Q Series. Secondary listening areas: 1/ QNAP 119P II(running MinimServer)>UPnP>Linn Majik DSI>Linn Majik 140's. 2/ (Source awaiting)>Invicta DAC>RotelRKB2100 Power amp>Rega's. Tertiary multiroom areas: Same QNAP>SMB>Sonos>Various. MULTICHANNEL- MacMini>A+(Standalone mode)>Exasound e28 >5.1 analog out>Yamaha Avantage Receiver>Pre-outs>Linn Chakra power amps>Linn Katan front and sides. Linn Trikan Centre. Velodyne SPL1000 Ultra

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^ Thanks for the great comment. 100% agree. Whatever meets ones needs. Look forward to the test..BTW what is that Oppo set up>? Is it really a simple streaming set up? I just feed the files straight from a NAS into an Oppo 105 via ethernet..That includes DSD via SMB. In effect the DAC chip in the Oppo is being fed the files right off the disc in the NAS is it not?

 

I absolutely want to keep using Jremote, so I will run Jriver as DLNA server - probably on my old CAPS 2.0 - and set up the MSB UMT as a DLNA rendered. Files will all reside on a NAS on my LAN.

 

ANother option is to put run Jriver on my small ASUS media server. This ASUS has HDMI out, so I can now connect the ASUS to the HDMI input on the (Oppo 103 based) MSB UMT and get internet as well. Like this, I could stream live concerts from websites into my home theater, or look at stuff on youtube.... I can control the ASUS via VMC on my iPad - no need for keyboard and screen.

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PM sent :)

 

If I set up things this way, I would rather run something like HQPlayer on a Cubox. And have that as a server "serving" files from MinimServer via UPnP into the Oppo. This would take away the gapless problem from the Oppo?? and maybe offer better filters, It would also allow DSD>PCM conversion while we wait for straight DSD via UPnP... My preference would be to take this one step further and remove the USB<>Oppo connection and put the Cubox entirely in the UPnP chain as well..but I don't know this can be done..and I find it very hard to follow the steps (are there any) in the setup of HQ player as a network player.. :)

New simplified setup: STEREO- Primary listening Area: Cullen Circuits Mod ZP90> Benchmark DAC1>RotelRKB250 Power amp>KEF Q Series. Secondary listening areas: 1/ QNAP 119P II(running MinimServer)>UPnP>Linn Majik DSI>Linn Majik 140's. 2/ (Source awaiting)>Invicta DAC>RotelRKB2100 Power amp>Rega's. Tertiary multiroom areas: Same QNAP>SMB>Sonos>Various. MULTICHANNEL- MacMini>A+(Standalone mode)>Exasound e28 >5.1 analog out>Yamaha Avantage Receiver>Pre-outs>Linn Chakra power amps>Linn Katan front and sides. Linn Trikan Centre. Velodyne SPL1000 Ultra

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Anyway we are getting way off track LOL!!!

New simplified setup: STEREO- Primary listening Area: Cullen Circuits Mod ZP90> Benchmark DAC1>RotelRKB250 Power amp>KEF Q Series. Secondary listening areas: 1/ QNAP 119P II(running MinimServer)>UPnP>Linn Majik DSI>Linn Majik 140's. 2/ (Source awaiting)>Invicta DAC>RotelRKB2100 Power amp>Rega's. Tertiary multiroom areas: Same QNAP>SMB>Sonos>Various. MULTICHANNEL- MacMini>A+(Standalone mode)>Exasound e28 >5.1 analog out>Yamaha Avantage Receiver>Pre-outs>Linn Chakra power amps>Linn Katan front and sides. Linn Trikan Centre. Velodyne SPL1000 Ultra

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PM sent :)

 

If I set up things this way, I would rather run something like HQPlayer on a Cubox. And have that as a server "serving" files from MinimServer via UPnP into the Oppo. This would take away the gapless problem from the Oppo?? and maybe offer better filters, It would also allow DSD>PCM conversion while we wait for straight DSD via UPnP... My preference would be to take this one step further and remove the USB<>Oppo connection and put the Cubox entirely in the UPnP chain as well..but I don't know this can be done..and I find it very hard to follow the steps (are there any) in the setup of HQ player as a network player.. :)

 

There will be no Oppo<>USB connection. The Oppo is only connected via Ethernet. It will be an extremely simple setup.

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I'm, sick of people telling me how I should listen to my files. I purchased every single one of them. Is that hacking? I'm tired of people telling me that stereo is better than multichannel. It's none of anybodies business how I want to listen to my music. Anyway. Why should anybody else tell me I should play them "their way"? Thats been the hifi industries major problem all along. It's this attitude.."well you *have* to do it like this"....because we know what's best for you.. Well if mankind thought like that, we would all still be living in caves listening to some sort of live cave chant around the camp fire. There would be no recorded music at all!!! It's pathetic this "I know better than you" attitude. Congrats on your stereo Lumin. For having the balls to make it. Now can you please just make a Multichannel version of the Lumin that does gapless DSD/PCM? I'll be our first customer.

 

+1

Aurender N10, Esoteric F-05 Integrated Amplifier, Synergistic Active USB, Oppo 203, Synergistic Atmosphere Level 3 UEF Speaker cables, Legacy Audio Focus SE, Rega Planar 10 turntable with Aphelion 2 cartridge.

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Trouble was, the whole world moved on and started listening to music in a totally different (disc-less) way.

No, the trouble is that world didn't follow up on buying what they are listening in a disc-less way. Studios need to make money the same way like you need to make money.

The ratio of paying vs 'free' listeners is altered so much that is a threat to the music business. Sure, some smaller companies tried to work trough that, but they are not getting traction. Even the 'indie' musicians need to eat and stay worm, and drive in various places.

DSD got popular just because of that. I have bought SACD discs and listen them in surround years before all this DSD 'craze'. People where listening mp3's back then (and where telling me that I cannot seriously hear a difference). Same peole todat think is 'cool' to bash PCM format probably because all they heard in that format was mp3 quality.

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I don't know this can be done..and I find it very hard to follow the steps (are there any) in the setup of HQ player as a network player.. :)

 

It is very simple at the HQPlayer side, you just start it in network mode and use it the same way as you would do in local playback mode. Only difference is that instead of choosing local audio endpoint from settings, you select of the network endpoints.

 

Setting up a NAA requires suitable Linux already configured and then installing one single software package there. No configuration needed, although you can change name of the particular NAA from HQPlayer side if you wish.

 

Much simpler than any UPnP and works much better at least for me.

 

NAA and UPnP shouldn't be compared because there's almost nothing in common.

 

Why I don't have UPnP support? Because it's obviously "designed by committee" with over complex protocol, missing required features while getting almost everything possible wrong way.

Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer

Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers

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It is very simple at the HQPlayer side, you just start it in network mode and use it the same way as you would do in local playback mode. Only difference is that instead of choosing local audio endpoint from settings, you select of the network endpoints.

 

Setting up a NAA requires suitable Linux already configured and then installing one single software package there. No configuration needed, although you can change name of the particular NAA from HQPlayer side if you wish.

 

Much simpler than any UPnP and works much better at least for me.

 

NAA and UPnP shouldn't be compared because there's almost nothing in common.

 

Why I don't have UPnP support? Because it's obviously "designed by committee" with over complex protocol, missing required features while getting almost everything possible wrong way.

 

 

There you go wappinghigh get HQ Player from Miska and give it a try... Can't hurt to see what's out there.

The Truth Is Out There

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^ You are right. UPnP is a dog on the Oppo. Miska could you please go to the Cubox thread. I'll give your HQplayer a go on that with the Oppo, if you can tell me how to set it all up. Cheers and apologies to all for the sidetrack.. :)

New simplified setup: STEREO- Primary listening Area: Cullen Circuits Mod ZP90> Benchmark DAC1>RotelRKB250 Power amp>KEF Q Series. Secondary listening areas: 1/ QNAP 119P II(running MinimServer)>UPnP>Linn Majik DSI>Linn Majik 140's. 2/ (Source awaiting)>Invicta DAC>RotelRKB2100 Power amp>Rega's. Tertiary multiroom areas: Same QNAP>SMB>Sonos>Various. MULTICHANNEL- MacMini>A+(Standalone mode)>Exasound e28 >5.1 analog out>Yamaha Avantage Receiver>Pre-outs>Linn Chakra power amps>Linn Katan front and sides. Linn Trikan Centre. Velodyne SPL1000 Ultra

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  • 2 months later...

Hi all. First post, I have been a lurker for a while. Very interesting topic. I just wanted to say that the DSD modulator IS its own filter. So while it's true it may not REQUIRE additional filtering. It is itself a filter. Also read Charlie's lesson on DSD and PCM a few pages back and found it very educational.

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Hi, dusfor99!

 

I assume your are identical to "dusfor99" on diyAudio Forum. ( I would apologize to you if my speculation is incorrect.)

I really hope you will stay on this forum for a long while because there are some enthusiastic fans of DAC chips you developed.

And my second wish is your re-emergence on diyAudio Forum.

 

Bunpei [who believes ES9018 sounds the best!]

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Hi Bunpei

 

Well that was fast. Yes same person. I want to contribute, learn and be involved in various topics since I have a passion for all aspects of audio. FYI I actually in market for turntable and pretty excited about it. I have to admit I never thought this day would come, but at RMAF2013 it became obvious I'm missing out on something special.

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I anticipated this response. If your software can do in DSD domain what say Trinnov or Dirac can do with PCM you need to talk to a venture capitalist and bring this to market quickly.

 

It has been on the market for quite a while already. And there's no venture capital in Finland. And if I ever have learned anything in my past career it is that I wouldn't let anybody have any control over my stuff.

Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer

Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers

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Actually I was referring to his hardware products, which he has said many times are not for sale and only used for his software development.

 

My hardware is pointless without the software, because it moves as much as possible from hardware to software. Specifically any kind of processing.

 

I've been thinking that maybe I should begin to release my schematics and PCB gerbers under Creative Commons license for DIY people...

Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer

Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers

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My hardware is pointless without the software, because it moves as much as possible from hardware to software. Specifically any kind of processing.

 

I've been thinking that maybe I should begin to release my schematics and PCB gerbers under Creative Commons license for DIY people...

 

+1 for that!

 

I really world Like to know what your hardware and software can do together.

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I've been thinking that maybe I should begin to release my schematics and PCB gerbers under Creative Commons license for DIY people...

 

Good to hear this :). My CS4398+Amanero project needs maybe some help.

(Kysessa on jossa DSD inputtin pääse PCM signaali, onko see vaaralista tai tule vain hirvea sahina? Minulla ei ole täälä hetkella niin sanottu I2S switchia. Uskon etta ensimaiseksin katselun riita 1 kpl muuntimen, jos see on tärkea. Ja anteeksi, en ole koskaan oppinu suomea...)

Sorry, english is not my native language.

Fools and fanatics are always certain of themselves, but wiser people are full of doubts.

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Good to hear this :). My CS4398+Amanero project needs maybe some help.

(Kysessa on jossa DSD inputtin pääse PCM signaali, onko see vaaralista tai tule vain hirvea sahina? Minulla ei ole täälä hetkella niin sanottu I2S switchia. Uskon etta ensimaiseksin katselun riita 1 kpl muuntimen, jos see on tärkea. Ja anteeksi, en ole koskaan oppinu suomea...)

 

Sounds like a good project. :) I also have a proto 2xPCM4202 + CS4398 A/D/A with DSD input where I can connect Amanero and other similar interfaces (or just SDIF-3). Originally the device was for recording and comparing 192/24 PCM and DSD128 simultaneous with same analog stages and two ADCs running in parallel with two outputs and monitor DAC that can switch between the two. Board ended up pretty big 12x12" because all components that can be thru-mount are such for better quality components and easy changing.

 

Väärä inputti todennäköisesti kuulostaa aika karmealta, minä käytän CS4398 DSD inputtia erillisten pinnien kautta jolloin DSD ja I2S ei sekoitu niin helposti. MCU ohjaa output mutea, CS4398:n rekistereitä sekä muxia jonka kautta inputit menee. Tällöin moodin vaihto on paremmin hanskassa. Tosin se ei ole niinkään ongelma, koska haluan lähinnä käyttää DACia kiinteästi Direct DSD moodissa 6.1 MHz samplekellolla.

 

Nyt ei puutu kuin aikaa, turhan monta rautaa tulessa. :)

Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer

Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers

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Thank you for reply.

Haluan käyta vanhan Marantzin DV7001 sacd/dvd soitin missa on 4x4398 (ja Mediatek, tämän avulla voin käytta SACD-R levyen mutta see toimi vain 24/176PCM moodissa), lisaksi viella erillised virtalähted digille ja muuntimeille (lineaarinen). En tieda selvasti, onko tässa HW tai SW mode käytössa (en ole ollut aika selvittä).

Koska Amaneron boardista tule ohjaussignaali DSDON, uskon etta on mahtolista rakenta I2S switch releiden kauta, mutta tässa voi tulla viive jos signaalinmuoto vaihtu (releiden viiven takia). Sen takia see kysymus väärasta inputista.

4398 DSD pinnid ovat: 1, 2, 28 ja 6 - MCLK. Onko tämä kuusi todelisesti tarbeksi? Ja onnistu HW moodissa Direct DSD mode?

 

Sorry for that spontaneous off-topic, this is some specific DIY talks. Dumb like me wants ask as fast possible :). Other similar talks goes to PM.

Sorry, english is not my native language.

Fools and fanatics are always certain of themselves, but wiser people are full of doubts.

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