ANOTHER Example of Why I HATE DSD and Why Customers Who Bought Sony's Boloney Are So Annoying

[edorr]

...I was specifically after something that has two or more 7.1 channel balanced XLR analog inputs. Preferably without any digital inputs or outputs. Just to connect multiple 8-channel DACs, have a source switch and analog volume control. Swapping eight XLR cables manually to switch source is kind of tiresome.

 

Maybe another thing I just have to build myself, but technically kind of boring project so I haven't got myself to do it.

 

This is one of the closest I've found, but I think I don't even want to know the price:

EMM Labs - Switchman MkII Multichannel Controller Switch

Or the audiophile variant:

EMM Labs - Switchman 3 - 6 Channel Preamplifier

 

I have owned the switchman (if one shows up used they are pretty cheap), the Theta Six Shooter and the McCormack MAP1. The Theta was IMO the best of the pack, the Switchman was a disappointment (to me anyway). However, none of them was as good as taking out the preamp and using a good digital volume control upstream. Other MCH preamp contenders are the Audio Research MP1 (which Kal now owns) and the Conrad Johnson MEP1 (tubes).

 

I'm back to using a preamp for 2 channel (ARC Ref5SE), but for MCH I still do digital domain volume control. However, if you are using an very good analog MCH player with a good MCH analog preamp you will still beat any HDMI transport + SSP south of $20K, in my experience. Downside is no DRC, and you have to score a museum piece MCH preamp.

[Kal Rubinson]

Downside is no DRC, and you have to score a museum piece MCH preamp.

I got the last NOS one from AR. :-)

[edorr]

I got the last NOS one from AR. :-)

 

I have not seen one of those show up used for years....

[Miska]

However, none of them was as good as taking out the preamp and using a good digital volume control upstream. Other MCH preamp contenders are the Audio Research MP1 (which Kal now owns) and the Conrad Johnson MEP1 (tubes).

 

I was looking for it before I had digital volume control for DSD, I didn't want any PCM conversion. I also found the AR MP1 at the time, but it was out of my budget. And although my Sony SACD player has delay and level adjustments for channel balance (in DSD), it doesn't have proper master volume.

 

I don't have capability to rip my SACDs, so I need to keep using SACD player.

 

Onkyo PR-SC5509 has DSD Direct conversion for HDMI but then it lacks delay and level adjustments, which I have in player software but it doesn't help with my SACDs... So I'm stuck to Sony and analog outputs when it comes SACD. AVR pre/pro's can of course serve as analog pre, but way too much money goes to the video sections I don't need or use at all...

[wappinghigh]

^Well I'm pretty happy with my Yammie. At around 1K with all the video signalling turned off it's OK..

[MikeJazz]

No ideas? It was intended to see who remembers such things.

Audio Research MP1 Multichannel Preamplifier

Music in the Round #26 Page 2 | Stereophile.com

 

I saw people very happy with multichannel processores from Arcam and from Classe.

If I was interested in multichannel, I would look into these...

[edorr]

I was looking for it before I had digital volume control for DSD, I didn't want any PCM conversion. I also found the AR MP1 at the time, but it was out of my budget. And although my Sony SACD player has delay and level adjustments for channel balance (in DSD), it doesn't have proper master volume.

 

I don't have capability to rip my SACDs, so I need to keep using SACD player.

 

Onkyo PR-SC5509 has DSD Direct conversion for HDMI but then it lacks delay and level adjustments, which I have in player software but it doesn't help with my SACDs... So I'm stuck to Sony and analog outputs when it comes SACD. AVR pre/pro's can of course serve as analog pre, but way too much money goes to the video sections I don't need or use at all...

 

I have gone through the following hardware / signal paths for MCH SACD playback:

 

Modded Denon 3910 into McCormack MAP1

Denon 2500 HDMI transport into modded Onkyo 855 SSP (DSD to PCM conversion)

Sony XA 5400 into Onkyo 855 SSP (HDMI DSD Direct)

Marantz UD9004 DSD direct into Theta Six Shooter

Marantz UD9004 DSD direct into Theta Six Shooter, A/D converted into Trinnov processor

Modded Oppo digital out (DSD to PCM conversion) into Trinnov processor

 

Every step represented an improvement, some bigger than other. Some was DSD direct, some DSD converted to PCM. All else being equal I prefer DSD direct, but all else is never equal, and given the state of technology I do not think I can improve on my current signal path which involves DSD to PCM conversion.

 

This may change, since the new MSB UMT plus transport allegedly outputs 4 x 2 channel DSD on AES/EBU and S/PDIF outputs so you can theoretically connect 3 DSD DACs and play MCH SACD in native DSD without the need for HDMI. You can do volume control by controlling the 3 DACs internal VC through RS232 (if you use MSB Dacs). I have no intention of trying this because it will be cost prohibitive (I would need two more MSB DACs), but my point is whatever is the best MCH sound achievable at any given point in time may be DSD direct or PCM converted, depending on available technology.

 

It is also conceivable that DSD to PCM conversion running through the Trinnov still sounds better than MCH DSD direct (depending on room).

[Kal Rubinson]

Onkyo PR-SC5509 has DSD Direct conversion for HDMI but then it lacks delay and level adjustments, which I have in player software but it doesn't help with my SACDs... So I'm stuck to Sony and analog outputs when it comes SACD. AVR pre/pro's can of course serve as analog pre, but way too much money goes to the video sections I don't need or use at all...

Of course, your software aside, any AVR/prepro that can implement delay and level adjustments with DSD is converting it to PCM in order to do so.

 

I saw people very happy with multichannel processores from Arcam and from Classe.

If I was interested in multichannel, I would look into these...

I have had both, as well as the Bryston SP3. All suffer in having only one MCH input and I need several. I could use my Zektor switch with these but I would not have the ability to to balance levels across inputs for comparisons. Believe me, I did not take this step lightly.

[edorr]

Of course, your software aside, any AVR/prepro that can implement delay and level adjustments with DSD is converting it to PCM in order to do so.

 

I guess by implication, if his Sony SACD player does just that (delay and channel trim), it has to convert to PCM as well, and his believe he has been listening to DSD direct all this time is the mother of all placebo effects.....

[Miska]

Of course, your software aside, any AVR/prepro that can implement delay and level adjustments with DSD is converting it to PCM in order to do so.

 

That was precisely what I found unacceptable, as well as extra A/D/A conversion. Sony players with analog outputs are the only SACD players I've found that can actually do it in DSD...

[Miska]

I guess by implication, if his Sony SACD player does just that (delay and channel trim), it has to convert to PCM as well, and his believe he has been listening to DSD direct all this time is the mother of all placebo effects.....

 

It has that "e-chip" discussed earlier inside (what ever huge chip with large DSD logo on top). I'm pretty sure of it, because it has three stereo DAC chips inside, and only the one responsible for front channels has PCM pins (I2S) connected, for CD playback. The two other chips have only DSD pins connected. I have verified this both from the PCB and from the schematics.

 

So the player's center, LFE and rear channels physically only capable of DSD.

 

The part I don't like in the player is that it's bass management makes it sound really bad, so that part cannot be used.

[Miska]

Modded Oppo digital out (DSD to PCM conversion) into Trinnov processor

 

I hope this doesn't mean Mediatek's DSD to PCM conversion? That's (IMO) horribly bad quality.

 

Every step represented an improvement, some bigger than other. Some was DSD direct, some DSD converted to PCM.

It is also conceivable that DSD to PCM conversion running through the Trinnov still sounds better than MCH DSD direct (depending on room).

 

I'm now just running all the delay, level and DRC for DSD in software, but that works only for DSF/DSDIFF files.

 

SACD was still kind of unresolved in this context for me. However I just replaced entire speaker system, so now I need DRC only for the subwoofer and no bass management. And I now subwoofer is connected through DSPeaker Anti-Mode 8033S-II so I can easily switch between it's correction and bypass. So things have been solved in a way I'm happy with.

[edorr]

That was precisely what I found unacceptable, as well as extra A/D/A conversion. Sony players with analog outputs are the only SACD players I've found that can actually do it in DSD...

 

I don't understand the DSD purism. You can get more current universal player that sound better in PCM than the Sony in DSD. The codec is only one of many variables determining sound quality.

[russtafarian]

Nuforce just announced an analog eight channel preamp:

 

https://www.nuforce.com/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=313:mcp-18&Itemid=1043&utm_campaign=website&utm_source=sendgrid.com&utm_medium=email

 

It's an op-amp based circuit that offers balanced and unbalanced outputs, two 8-channel inputs, and a few stereo inputs. It's not SOTA, but likely offers good performance and value for around $1k.

 

Russ

[Miska]

I found actually good presentation about Sony SCD-XA9000ES (IMO, best model they've produced so far) and the difference of "multi-bit" (PCM) and "multi-level" (SDM) conversion as graphs:

Sony SCD-XA9000ES - Printer Friendly version

 

I never bothered to draw such pretty pictures, just trying to explain. Maybe these pictures describe more than thousand words?

 

P.S. Although there's one error in the multi-bit graph, the value for second state there should be 5 and not 10.

[wappinghigh]

Nuforce just announced an analog eight channel preamp:

 

https://www.nuforce.com/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=313:mcp-18&Itemid=1043&utm_campaign=website&utm_source=sendgrid.com&utm_medium=email

 

It's an op-amp based circuit that offers balanced and unbalanced outputs, two 8-channel inputs, and a few stereo inputs. It's not SOTA, but likely offers good performance and value for around $1k.

 

Russ

 

Nice find!!! Thanks for posting. Would be the perfect partner to the Oppo 105...

[wappinghigh]

I found actually good presentation about Sony SCD-XA9000ES (IMO, best model they've produced so far) and the difference of "multi-bit" (PCM) and "multi-level" (SDM) conversion as graphs:

Sony SCD-XA9000ES - Printer Friendly version

 

I never bothered to draw such pretty pictures, just trying to explain. Maybe these pictures describe more than thousand words?

 

P.S. Although there's one error in the multi-bit graph, the value for second state there should be 5 and not 10.

 

 

Yeah..like I have said for years. Pity Sony doesn't produce a UPnP mulitchannel DSD/PCM capable streamer.. To replace such a beautiful disc based player.... Seriously what is wrong with this company? Where did it all go so horribly wrong with their hiend audiophile division? What happened to innovation? Sad.

[Alex66]

Nuforce just announced an analog eight channel preamp:

 

https://www.nuforce.com/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=313:mcp-18&Itemid=1043&utm_campaign=website&utm_source=sendgrid.com&utm_medium=email

 

It's an op-amp based circuit that offers balanced and unbalanced outputs, two 8-channel inputs, and a few stereo inputs. It's not SOTA, but likely offers good performance and value for around $1k.

 

Russ

I built a custom multi channel amp for someone just after dvd came out as there was no available model for them. It was a night mare as the 6 channel pot had to be custom made. Then if I recall right had to also do various balancing controls one for each output channel that altered the gain round each stage and then on two of the inputs another set of pots for each channel. It had 6 inputs of 6 channels no stereo all line level outputs. Alas it did not have remote control, which made it less than ideal. I am surprised at the lack of multi channel amps with more than a couple of 6/8 channel inputs though with phonos it does take up a lot of space, could be solved with a couple of 5 pole xlrs or something similar.

[Kal Rubinson]

I am surprised at the lack of multi channel amps with more than a couple of 6/8 channel inputs though with phonos it does take up a lot of space, could be solved with a couple of 5 pole xlrs or something similar.

I am not surprised. The vast majority of the market does things differently.

[edorr]

Nice find!!! Thanks for posting. Would be the perfect partner to the Oppo 105...

 

I tried to sell my McCormack (which I suspect is the better preamp) for less than the nuforce and could not give it away..... I hope they have a winner, but I am not holding my breath.

[edorr]

.... Seriously what is wrong with this company? Where did it all go so horribly wrong with their hiend audiophile division? What happened to innovation? Sad.

 

I guess they decided to focus on trying to make some money instead. Never a bad idea for a non-charity.

[Charles Hansen]

Nope, you understood my poorly written, run on sentences perfectly. I know nothing about your QA-9 except that you stated it uses the ARDA 1201 A/D converter chip (same as Merging's Horus), and therefore requires decimation filtering to yield any PCM format from the internal 6-bit modulator output. I say that can't improve the original A/D conversion, that's all. And since I make my living (such as it is) listening to original DSD recordings and their DXD conversions, I can easily differentiate between the two.

 

So my 2 cents, based on my experience, disagrees with your 2 cents. An original 1-bit two level (Grimm AD1) DSD, or multi-bit Delta-Sigma Modulator based A/D converter, including your QA-9, sounds best in its original high sample rate format, and is only degraded by any PCM conversion, your custom filters included. To the degree it's down sampled to higher sample rate PCM or 1-bit two level modulator code (DSD), the less the degradation.

 

Hello Spinner,

 

Every audio ADC built in the last 10 to 15 years uses a D-S modulator and decimates to create PCM. If I read your post correctly you are saying that the more you down sample it, the worse it sounds.

 

That is NOT my experience at all. In my experience you could downsample it to 12.288 MHz and it would still sound like shit if you use a brickwall filter. Or you could downsample it to 88.2 kHz and have it sound GORGEOUS if you used the proper type of filter.

 

Cheers,

[Charles Hansen]

don't worry, 256fs dsd dacs are backwards compatible with 192khz pcm, so during the test, the same dac could be used.

 

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[Charles Hansen]

Charlie, please don't do this. It will set off another round of "you design our stuff" or "we design your stuff" nonsense.

 

If you want Mr. Personality to handle your customer support, I am available. Now that would really give them something to talk about. Hotcha!

 

 

Hey Pat,

 

Careful there, I might take you up on it!

[Charles Hansen]

That process doesn't require running any filters at all...[/quote

 

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