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ANOTHER Example of Why I HATE DSD and Why Customers Who Bought Sony's Boloney Are So Annoying


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I'm sure I am misinterpreting your post, so please feel free to clarify.

 

Thanks.

 

Nope, you understood my poorly written, run on sentences perfectly. I know nothing about your QA-9 except that you stated it uses the ARDA 1201 A/D converter chip (same as Merging's Horus), and therefore requires decimation filtering to yield any PCM format from the internal 6-bit modulator output. I say that can't improve the original A/D conversion, that's all. And since I make my living (such as it is) listening to original DSD recordings and their DXD conversions, I can easily differentiate between the two.

 

So my 2 cents, based on my experience, disagrees with your 2 cents. An original 1-bit two level (Grimm AD1) DSD, or multi-bit Delta-Sigma Modulator based A/D converter, including your QA-9, sounds best in its original high sample rate format, and is only degraded by any PCM conversion, your custom filters included. To the degree it's down sampled to higher sample rate PCM or 1-bit two level modulator code (DSD), the less the degradation.

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then we can stop all of this DSD nonsense, (WHICH, BY THE WAY IS THE ATTITUDE THAT 99.999% OF ALL RECORDING STUDIOS HAVE!)

 

You're probably correct. But after all, they're recording STUDIOS, not the legion of labels and production houses that record natural acoustic music. Why not go visit Gus and educate yourself on this subject Charlie.

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Previously we could not do it because there was no DoP standard for DSD A/D conversion. Now we have preliminary spec that will allow us this possibility. Before this our SACD output was SDIF-2 or SDIF-3 (selectable), but the only equipment we had that would accept this was a borrowed Meitner DAC. It would be silly to try to compare while using two completely different DACs!!!!

 

Don't worry, 256fs DSD DACs are backwards compatible with 192kHz PCM, so during the test, the same DAC could be used.

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...it uses the ARDA 1201 A/D converter chip (same as Merging's Horus), and therefore requires decimation filtering to yield any PCM format from the internal 6-bit modulator output. I say that can't improve the original A/D conversion, that's all.

How about extracting 1 bit DSD from the same 6 bit D-S modulator? Is that "perfect"? Isn't worse?

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How about extracting 1 bit DSD from the same 6 bit D-S modulator? Is that "perfect"? Isn't worse?

 

I don't know the answer to that, but I suspect you're correct that there would be degradation. My experience primarily is with the Grimm AD1, where its front end modulator generates 1-bit two level directly, and only at 64fs. However any time you have to create any format, same, or different, running at a lower sampling rate than the origin, you must decimate filter the products above half the new sampling rate to avoid foldback, and inter-modulation with that content above the Nyquist frequency. But DSD, even 64fs is a pretty high sampling rate compared to any PCM, so the multiple of times between the original modulators, and the new decimated format is much less, so the phase characteristics of the decimation filter can be considerably better.

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I think I have a good cure for that. I think I will man the customer support line for a week or two so we can change our reputation....

 

Charlie, please don't do this. It will set off another round of "you design our stuff" or "we design your stuff" nonsense.

 

If you want Mr. Personality to handle your customer support, I am available. Now that would really give them something to talk about. Hotcha!

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Even in DSD, you cannot have better analog resolution, using the same stages. If any, you will have worse THD in bypass mode, because you don't use the multilevel D-S. Using higher DSD modes will NOT bypass the limitations imposed by the analog stages inside DAC's (or ADC's). is just wasted bandwidth.

 

1-bit converter has less THD than multi-bit because it doesn't have non-linearities of multi-bit. DSD is also very bitrate efficient. DSD128 has bitrate of 352.8/16 PCM.

 

Another reason why DSD sucks is lack of mixing ability.

 

Wrong, you can

1) mix in analog domain

2) mix multiple DSD streams

Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer

Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers

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But since there will be no aliasing into the audio band with signals of less that 170 kHz, I don't think this will be a problem. No musical instruments or microphones have output at these frequencies so it is a non-issue.

 

It is issue because:

1) Even those aliases that are above audio band will cause correlated intermodulation products down to audio band.

2) Even your analog stages seems to have quite high THD at ultrasonic frequencies, and mic amps may too have fairly high THD at 20+ kHz. So 100 kHz input will generate THD harmonics at 200, 300, 400, 500 kHz. These THD harmonics will alias back to the Nyquist band due to low stop-band attenuation in your anti-alias filter.

 

Try out 100 kHz at 2V with something like 1% THD and check if 0 - 88.2 kHz stays completely clean down to -144 dB at least.

 

You can check out what instruments produce:

http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~boyk/spectra/spectra.htm

(test your system by putting that Sanken microphone 60 cm from a crash cymbal and start smashing - then you know one example what closei-mic'ed rock would produce)

Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer

Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers

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That would be good, but would also be what is known as a "sub-optimal" solution.

 

If you are trying to simplify your system and just want to have one volume control, it is bad engineering to put it in the source component. Then every source component would need its own volume control. Also, the analog volume control would be placed inside the box with all of the digital components, with the high-speed clocks and lots of RFI in the same box.

 

A far better solution is to move the volume control into the same box as the power amp. Then the volume of ANY source can be controlled by just one volume control, and that volume control is inside a box that is completely free of any digital (RFI) signals. Go check out our AX-5 integrated amplifier. it is the most pure signal path ever made. There isn't even a volume control. It is just a power amp with multiple inputs. And the gain of the power amp is adjustable t o match any required playback level. Devilishly ingenious!

 

LOL man!! hahahaha...Well why are you worried? Just make two versions. A DAC/pre (with analog volume control) like Steve Nugent's Empirical.. *AND* a multichannel DAC/streamer (like the Oppo) and leave volume control out completely.. two different products for two very different users. Cover both types of computer audiophiles. What a WIN!!!

 

The DAC/Pre could be for customers who want an all in one (say connected to their computers)..customers like this hate digital volume control in programs like JRiver. They also usually have their dac's near their computers because of the limitations of USB cable length. They also set volume to "max" to avoid digital.. hahaha, so you will win them over! They *need* an analog volume control on the DAC. LOL!! The second product: DAC/Streamer has to be connected to a preamp multichannel receiver anyway. So you're right volume can be left out. And because a streamer can "stream" it can be way away from the file source so direct volume control is impractical anyway. Leaving it out is a win win..

 

Let the customers make their choice. At the end of the day as I keep saying to you it doesn't really matter. If you want no digital volume modulation (because you believe it is impure or can't do it, then just leave it out!!!) Explain why you have done this to your customers and be done with it. They'll love ya for it anyway LOL!!! :)

New simplified setup: STEREO- Primary listening Area: Cullen Circuits Mod ZP90> Benchmark DAC1>RotelRKB250 Power amp>KEF Q Series. Secondary listening areas: 1/ QNAP 119P II(running MinimServer)>UPnP>Linn Majik DSI>Linn Majik 140's. 2/ (Source awaiting)>Invicta DAC>RotelRKB2100 Power amp>Rega's. Tertiary multiroom areas: Same QNAP>SMB>Sonos>Various. MULTICHANNEL- MacMini>A+(Standalone mode)>Exasound e28 >5.1 analog out>Yamaha Avantage Receiver>Pre-outs>Linn Chakra power amps>Linn Katan front and sides. Linn Trikan Centre. Velodyne SPL1000 Ultra

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And Charles if you are that concerned with putting in an analog volume control into your DAC version just leave it out as well!! Just make it a DAC with *no* volume control. LOL. Those customers can buy a passive analog volume attenuator. something like this: http://www.goldpt.com If they want to be that "pure", that's exactly what they will do.. Why are you getting yourself all in a tangle over this..?? Just leave out volume control as you say (if you want your product to be as pure as the newly fallen snow), and let the customer decide what to do.... LOL man!!

New simplified setup: STEREO- Primary listening Area: Cullen Circuits Mod ZP90> Benchmark DAC1>RotelRKB250 Power amp>KEF Q Series. Secondary listening areas: 1/ QNAP 119P II(running MinimServer)>UPnP>Linn Majik DSI>Linn Majik 140's. 2/ (Source awaiting)>Invicta DAC>RotelRKB2100 Power amp>Rega's. Tertiary multiroom areas: Same QNAP>SMB>Sonos>Various. MULTICHANNEL- MacMini>A+(Standalone mode)>Exasound e28 >5.1 analog out>Yamaha Avantage Receiver>Pre-outs>Linn Chakra power amps>Linn Katan front and sides. Linn Trikan Centre. Velodyne SPL1000 Ultra

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*AND* a multichannel DAC/streamer (like the Oppo) and leave volume control out completely.. two different products for two very different users. Cover both types of computer audiophiles.

 

No, THAT would be bad option. For analog volume control, there are plenty stereo pre-amps and integrateds with decent analog volume control. However, try to find a pure audio machine (not AV pre-pro) one with 7.1 channel decent analog volume control and more than one analog multichannel input! Not many options, even less if you'd like to have balanced inputs.

 

I spent plenty of time trying to find such thing in the past, and the only reasonably priced I found was

Product Lines > Halo > P 7 Preamplifier

 

I found couple of other devices mainly targeted for studios with $$$ price tags.

Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer

Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers

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No, THAT would be bad option. For analog volume control, there are plenty stereo pre-amps and integrateds with decent analog volume control. However, try to find a pure audio machine (not AV pre-pro) one with 7.1 channel decent analog volume control and more than one analog multichannel input! Not many options, even less if you'd like to have balanced inputs.

 

I spent plenty of time trying to find such thing in the past, and the only reasonably priced I found was

Product Lines > Halo > P 7 Preamplifier

 

I found couple of other devices mainly targeted for studios with $$$ price tags.

 

Linn

Altough not multi-channel, the akurate dsm seems close to requirements, with both digital and analog inputs, including HDMI, and with a good analog volume control (not sure if good in the Charles's terms, but good to my ears).

So it's no longer one source, it's a multisource option.

 

I think it tops the dac of my Lyngdorf, and I am willing to test this with a amplifier that is "quad-friendly"...valves or not...

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LOL Mike!!Yes. A multichannel Linn DSM would be superb I agree!! Linn users have been at them for one of those for years!! but alas.. they don't believe in DSD either hahahaha

New simplified setup: STEREO- Primary listening Area: Cullen Circuits Mod ZP90> Benchmark DAC1>RotelRKB250 Power amp>KEF Q Series. Secondary listening areas: 1/ QNAP 119P II(running MinimServer)>UPnP>Linn Majik DSI>Linn Majik 140's. 2/ (Source awaiting)>Invicta DAC>RotelRKB2100 Power amp>Rega's. Tertiary multiroom areas: Same QNAP>SMB>Sonos>Various. MULTICHANNEL- MacMini>A+(Standalone mode)>Exasound e28 >5.1 analog out>Yamaha Avantage Receiver>Pre-outs>Linn Chakra power amps>Linn Katan front and sides. Linn Trikan Centre. Velodyne SPL1000 Ultra

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Look it really depends into what market Chuckie is pitching his product.

 

There are big gaps to be exploited here. Holes to fill as everyone contributing to this thread has raised..

 

That's why this is the Vote no.1 Best thread on CA right now!

 

Gap no. one.

 

The cheaper "Oppo" style, stream all files including multichannel and multi channel DSD via UPnP player. Now this player can be cheap. Because as Miska points out potential buyers would just plug it into a multichannel HT amp anyway. So no problem. What this particular CA user wants is something that will just stream and play the darn files.. they don't care about "pure volume control". If they are like me, they will by a better DAC for that anyway for their expensive gear..

 

Gap no. two.

 

The High end Linn multichannel style DSM product. Linn needs to just pull the finger out of their )*&*&)*#@ and release one of these.and just accept that their customers might want to stream DSD! Heck this sort of customer will pay 10K for such a device so give 'em what they want for peats sake LOL!

 

Gap three.

 

A well thought out "all in one" CAPS type of product. Something with Miska software embedded. This is for the "I still want my library on a computer crowd" who still want to connect via USB.. (god luv 'em) haha

 

Gap four

 

I think this is where our friend Chuckie wants to go.. A really high quality DAC/pre with digital volume control. Well as far as I know this gap is being nicely filled right now by Resonessence Lab's. Sure it is real difficult to do, and may not be achievable, but if you explain what you are doing like RL have done, customers will forgive you.. In fact they'll luv ya for trying. It's part of the experience going along for the ride LOL!

 

Of course some customers (yours truly) will buy multiple products in an attempt to fill these gaps so all good! :)

New simplified setup: STEREO- Primary listening Area: Cullen Circuits Mod ZP90> Benchmark DAC1>RotelRKB250 Power amp>KEF Q Series. Secondary listening areas: 1/ QNAP 119P II(running MinimServer)>UPnP>Linn Majik DSI>Linn Majik 140's. 2/ (Source awaiting)>Invicta DAC>RotelRKB2100 Power amp>Rega's. Tertiary multiroom areas: Same QNAP>SMB>Sonos>Various. MULTICHANNEL- MacMini>A+(Standalone mode)>Exasound e28 >5.1 analog out>Yamaha Avantage Receiver>Pre-outs>Linn Chakra power amps>Linn Katan front and sides. Linn Trikan Centre. Velodyne SPL1000 Ultra

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LOL Mike!!Yes. A multichannel Linn DSM would be superb I agree!! Linn users have been at them for one of those for years!! but alas.. they don't believe in DSD either hahahaha

 

You have one of my favorite small speakers, the Katan's. What those babies can do in active mode is beyond believe...

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No, THAT would be bad option. For analog volume control, there are plenty stereo pre-amps and integrateds with decent analog volume control. However, try to find a pure audio machine (not AV pre-pro) one with 7.1 channel decent analog volume control and more than one analog multichannel input! Not many options, even less if you'd like to have balanced inputs.

 

I spent plenty of time trying to find such thing in the past, and the only reasonably priced I found was

Product Lines > Halo > P 7 Preamplifier

 

I found couple of other devices mainly targeted for studios with $$$ price tags.

There were many such devices available in the past but the appearance of HDMI effectively destroyed much of the market for them. I recently found and purchased a NOS mch analog preamp with 3 mch inputs (one balanced) along with 4 stereo inputs (RCA and XLR) but they are hard to find.

Kal Rubinson

Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile

 

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Linn

Altough not multi-channel, the akurate dsm seems close to requirements, with both digital and analog inputs, including HDMI, and with a good analog volume control (not sure if good in the Charles's terms, but good to my ears).

So it's no longer one source, it's a multisource option.

 

...I was specifically after something that has two or more 7.1 channel balanced XLR analog inputs. Preferably without any digital inputs or outputs. Just to connect multiple 8-channel DACs, have a source switch and analog volume control. Swapping eight XLR cables manually to switch source is kind of tiresome.

 

Maybe another thing I just have to build myself, but technically kind of boring project so I haven't got myself to do it.

 

This is one of the closest I've found, but I think I don't even want to know the price:

EMM Labs - Switchman MkII Multichannel Controller Switch

Or the audiophile variant:

EMM Labs - Switchman 3 - 6 Channel Preamplifier

Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer

Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers

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There were many such devices available in the past but the appearance of HDMI effectively destroyed much of the market for them. I recently found and purchased a NOS mch analog preamp with 3 mch inputs (one balanced) along with 4 stereo inputs (RCA and XLR) but they are hard to find.

 

KAL can you post a link on what this is? Thanks.

New simplified setup: STEREO- Primary listening Area: Cullen Circuits Mod ZP90> Benchmark DAC1>RotelRKB250 Power amp>KEF Q Series. Secondary listening areas: 1/ QNAP 119P II(running MinimServer)>UPnP>Linn Majik DSI>Linn Majik 140's. 2/ (Source awaiting)>Invicta DAC>RotelRKB2100 Power amp>Rega's. Tertiary multiroom areas: Same QNAP>SMB>Sonos>Various. MULTICHANNEL- MacMini>A+(Standalone mode)>Exasound e28 >5.1 analog out>Yamaha Avantage Receiver>Pre-outs>Linn Chakra power amps>Linn Katan front and sides. Linn Trikan Centre. Velodyne SPL1000 Ultra

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I pity 'da fool who calls Mr. P. to argue about audio!

 

By the way Patrick, how is your DAC coming? Anything you care to share?

 

Well, just like all the other crap products we try to produce.............

 

The guys who made the crystals we used stopped making them. We bought a large handful, knowing that is what they were going to do.

 

 

Too bad most of them are not usable.

 

So........started looking for new suppliers. All we have tried are much more expensive. Some provided decent samples, but the production ones (that we actually paid for) are not that great. It still means picking through parts, and looking for the good ones. Except now we pay a lot more for the ones we pick through.

 

IOW.............nothing is being shipped.

 

At the present, we are closed, due to a family emergency. We will remain closed, for probably another 2 weeks. I am merely here to take my mind off of what is going on. Honest.

 

Hopefully, I will be able to re-focus on the crystal problem, when I get back. However, the only solution may be to buy $$$ crystals, and be done with it. Prices will have to go up, substantially.

 

There, aren't you glad you asked? No, of course not!

 

Later, guys.....................

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Look it really depends into what market Chuckie is pitching his product.

 

There are big gaps to be exploited here. Holes to fill as everyone contributing to this thread has raised..

 

That's why this is the Vote no.1 Best thread on CA right now!

 

Gap no. one.

 

The cheaper "Oppo" style, stream all files including multichannel and multi channel DSD via UPnP player. Now this player can be cheap. Because as Miska points out potential buyers would just plug it into a multichannel HT amp anyway. So no problem. What this particular CA user wants is something that will just stream and play the darn files.. they don't care about "pure volume control". If they are like me, they will by a better DAC for that anyway for their expensive gear..

 

Gap no. two.

 

The High end Linn multichannel style DSM product. Linn needs to just pull the finger out of their )*&*&)*#@ and release one of these.and just accept that their customers might want to stream DSD! Heck this sort of customer will pay 10K for such a device so give 'em what they want for peats sake LOL!

 

Gap three.

 

A well thought out "all in one" CAPS type of product. Something with Miska software embedded. This is for the "I still want my library on a computer crowd" who still want to connect via USB.. (god luv 'em) haha

 

Gap four

 

I think this is where our friend Chuckie wants to go.. A really high quality DAC/pre with digital volume control. Well as far as I know this gap is being nicely filled right now by Resonessence Lab's. Sure it is real difficult to do, and may not be achievable, but if you explain what you are doing like RL have done, customers will forgive you.. In fact they'll luv ya for trying. It's part of the experience going along for the ride LOL!

 

Of course some customers (yours truly) will buy multiple products in an attempt to fill these gaps so all good! :)

 

All of which I would not be buying, not the slightest bit interested, but good of you to identify niche products in niche markets.

AS Profile Equipment List        Say NO to MQA

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