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Wyred 4 Sound Dac2SE Upgrade Revisited & Findings -- The Best Decision Unequivocally!

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I just took delivery of my 2v2SE which I will be using with a PSAudio Perfect Wave Transport with the 12s port.

I hooked it up this morning , select 12s only to see this    12s <?>    on the screen of the 2v2. Checking the connections I tried playback again only to see the same results, I changed out the cable and tried another one only to get the same result 12s <?> .

 

 

 

 

Edited by Wizzer

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The world of I2s is still being unified....


Upgradeus Interruptus.....

 

PS Audio Directstream DSD DAC, PS Audio DirectStream Memory Player, PS Audio BHK Signature Pre, PS Audio BHK 300 Monos, Aurender A10, MacMini, Roon, Vandersteen Treo CT's, AudioQuest Diamond USB, AudioQuest CastleRock Speaker cables, AudioQuest MacKenzie interconnects.

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6 minutes ago, longbowbbs said:

The world of I2s is still being unified....

 That's not the issue between these two components  , many have been using this combination of components and 12s connection for years ,..

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9 hours ago, Wizzer said:

I just took delivery of my 2v2SE which I will be using with a PSAudio Perfect Wave Transport with the 12s port.

I hooked it up this morning , select 12s only to see this    12s <?>    on the screen of the 2v2. Checking the connections I tried playback again only to see the same results, I changed out the cable and tried another one only to get the same result 12s <?> .

 

 

 

 

Wizzer, the Perfect Wave Transport is what W4S uses to check i2s. Well, at least they use it to check i2s PCM.  From what I read, it only does PCM. If you are trying DSD, that is the result you'll get. Is the PWT working with the 2V2 on its other outputs(coax, toslink, AES)?


2 modified PCs in a streamer with WS2012/ AO 2.20/ Jplay 7/ Fidelizer Pro 8.2/ Process Lasso/

Pachanko lan cables & PPA ethernet switch between pcs > Audio PC JCat Femto usb audio card > iFi Gemini 3.0 dual headed usb cable > iFi iGalvanic > iFi iUsb power 3.0   > iFi iPurifier 3 > Singxer SU-1 (i2s out) > Wyred 4 Sound DAC2V2 DSDse >

1) maxed out Woo WA2 > Beyerdynamic T1 w/ Forza Noir hybrid cable mod

2) Woo WA2 pre amp > Exposure 2010S2 Int Amp + Exposure 2010S2 Power Amp > Von Gaylord Legend Speakers + REL T-5 Sub-Bass System

***Audio system powered by two Equi=Core 300 balanced power sources                                                       

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54 minutes ago, Franatic said:

Wizzer, the Perfect Wave Transport is what W4S uses to check i2s. Well, at least they use it to check i2s PCM.  From what I read, it only does PCM. If you are trying DSD, that is the result you'll get. Is the PWT working with the 2V2 on its other outputs(coax, toslink, AES)?

Thank you for your reply, I have sent an email to Wyred4sound yesterday . I'm using CD only and yes I tried a Toslink and the same symbol appeared ,..TOS 1 <?>... 

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35 minutes ago, Wizzer said:

Thank you for your reply, I have sent an email to Wyred4sound yesterday . I'm using CD only and yes I tried a Toslink and the same symbol appeared ,..TOS 1 <?>... 

It's one of three issues , its either the PWT , the Dac or I me ,....

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1 hour ago, Wizzer said:

Thank you for your reply, I have sent an email to Wyred4sound yesterday . I'm using CD only and yes I tried a Toslink and the same symbol appeared ,..TOS 1 <?>... 

 

That the TOS input on the DAC also displays a <?> symbol suggests it might be your PWT. Let us know what you find out from PS Audio.

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On 4/4/2017 at 7:02 PM, ksalno said:

Ideally, Singxter would issue a fix. However, in lieu of that, I agree more specifics on the capacitor and the pin outs would be appreciated. I ordered a couple different ceramic caps from Mouser but they clearly aren't the right ones, as they were so tiny, I couldn't even see them with 2x magnifying glasses on. No way I could solder them. Can W4S provide a link to the right capacitor and some additional directions for the DIYer?

 

While we can appreciate the impact of this new revelation regarding the Singxer, we feel we should address the issue of providing further support on it. As you know, the reason we felt compelled to look at the Singxer was to see if there was something not working with our own I2S. We determined that was not the case and then proved it by 'fixing' the Singxer so that it worked properly. We were happy to be transparent on the issue and had things gone the other way, we would have hunkered down and looked at what was going on with our I2S.

 

However, now that the matter is closed, please understand that it is not our rightful position to now provide continual support for another company's product. We will happily offer to modify anyone's unit if they would like to send it in at our minimum shop rate of $125/hr. Or you may wish to contact Singxer. 

 

We hope this doesn't come across as hard-lined to anyone, and we do appreciate your understanding.

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1 hour ago, Wyred 4 Sound said:

 

While we can appreciate the impact of this new revelation regarding the Singxer, we feel we should address the issue of providing further support on it. As you know, the reason we felt compelled to look at the Singxer was to see if there was something not working with our own I2S. We determined that was not the case and then proved it by 'fixing' the Singxer so that it worked properly. We were happy to be transparent on the issue and had things gone the other way, we would have hunkered down and looked at what was going on with our I2S.

 

However, now that the matter is closed, please understand that it is not our rightful position to now provide continual support for another company's product. We will happily offer to modify anyone's unit if they would like to send it in at our minimum shop rate of $125/hr. Or you may wish to contact Singxer. 

 

We hope this doesn't come across as hard-lined to anyone, and we do appreciate your understanding.

 

Hi all, just for clarification, this post is meant as a general one, not specifically directed to ksalno or any other member. 

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Dear all,

My name is Andrea and I'm writing from Italy.

I have a W4S Dac2Se connected through I2s to the singxer

The pcm problem was solved with the solution provided in this forum but I think another problem should be remained with dsd and singxer.

In my opinion the phase is 180° inverted. 

I have tried with another W4S Dac2 of a friend  , I2S connection, and with both the firmware 2.0 and 2.02, but the result is the same because with the switch 3 you can invert the channels anyway but the phase remain always inverted of 180° because pin 1/3 and 7/9 are cuncurrently  changed.
We think to need a firmware that with the switch 3 change only pin 1/3 .
We think also that Singxer should have also the same problem with dac HALO and they are listening with the phase inverted of 180° without notice it
The question for Franatic and the others owners of our W4S Dac2 DsDSe is if you have notice the inverted 180° phase listening dsd files through I2S, absence of bass and voices inside the drivers of the speakers.
We are trying to involve Singxer with this problem without success.
Sorry for my bad english, anyway I hope you have understood what I have described.
 
Andrea.
 
Best regards
 
Andrea Gaspari

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Andrea, I gave a listen paying attention to the voice and bass in the drivers. I have Frank Sinatra - "Sinatra's Swinging Session" in both DSD 64 and PCM 176. In playing it both ways I can hear both the stand-up bass and Sinatra's amazing, deep vocals equally well in the drivers. By the way, this recording is superb in both versions I have.

I am not familiar with what a 180 degree phase shift would sound like, but I can say with reasonably high confidence that the problem does not exist here. Possibly there are different build levels of the SU-1 out there. You should try to contact Singxer on this.


2 modified PCs in a streamer with WS2012/ AO 2.20/ Jplay 7/ Fidelizer Pro 8.2/ Process Lasso/

Pachanko lan cables & PPA ethernet switch between pcs > Audio PC JCat Femto usb audio card > iFi Gemini 3.0 dual headed usb cable > iFi iGalvanic > iFi iUsb power 3.0   > iFi iPurifier 3 > Singxer SU-1 (i2s out) > Wyred 4 Sound DAC2V2 DSDse >

1) maxed out Woo WA2 > Beyerdynamic T1 w/ Forza Noir hybrid cable mod

2) Woo WA2 pre amp > Exposure 2010S2 Int Amp + Exposure 2010S2 Power Amp > Von Gaylord Legend Speakers + REL T-5 Sub-Bass System

***Audio system powered by two Equi=Core 300 balanced power sources                                                       

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I just sent my DSDse in for the mod, and I also use a Singxer in between my computer and DAC, connecting with AES/EBU. Pretty much just use PCM

 

I've never used i2s and was wondering if anyone has an opinion as to what input is sonically superior using the Singxer/2v2se configuration. I am pretty content with AES/EBU. Would using i2s be an improvement worthy of getting my Singxer "fixed" to use the i2s?

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I'm probably wrong but it looks like the capacitor is just bridged across those two resistors. Is it actually attached to one of the traces? It almost looks like the cap is encased in some sort of dielectric...

 

Full disclosure: Picture is small, eyes are bad and I'm a electronic neophyte

On 4/4/2017 at 7:18 PM, Franatic said:

My Singxer SU-1 arrived back from W4S. All file types and bit rates play perfectly. I've played PCM 44, 96, 192 and 352.8(DXD). I've played DSD64 and DSD128. No more playback issues. Great job W4S, above and beyond the call of duty....thank you :)

 

I must say the i2s via the Singxer outperforms the direct usb input decidedly here, especially with DSD. The DSD sounds amazing via i2s. I will characterize later after burn-in and numerous very enjoyable listening sessions what I hear, but the modified Singxer SU-1 and the upgraded DAC make a formidable combo. It was very worth the 2k+ spent on the whole upgrade.

 

I took a picture of the capacitor modification. It is the best detail I could get. I think you might need more technical info from W4S to be sure to get it right. It is very tiny and will be hard to see exactly what trace the one side of the cap is soldered on. The other side is soldered onto the pad of the 2 resistors.

Singxer bypass cap.jpg

 

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9 hours ago, Franatic said:

Andrea, I gave a listen paying attention to the voice and bass in the drivers. I have Frank Sinatra - "Sinatra's Swinging Session" in both DSD 64 and PCM 176. In playing it both ways I can hear both the stand-up bass and Sinatra's amazing, deep vocals equally well in the drivers. By the way, this recording is superb in both versions I have.

I am not familiar with what a 180 degree phase shift would sound like, but I can say with reasonably high confidence that the problem does not exist here. Possibly there are different build levels of the SU-1 out there. You should try to contact Singxer on this.

 

Hi Fran,

first of all many thaks about the check.

Could you please tell me what version of firmware (2.0 or 2.02) you have installed on your Singxer SU-1 and what configuration of switches you are using.

I want to check my configuration even if I've tried all the possible combination.

In any case, wiping my ears before :), I will retry your test with pcm and dsd version of the same file and I will return to you with 

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I've done the test.

I've listened a dsd file... the voice is behind the speakers, the phase is 180° inverted because...;,

Than I've converted the same file with JRiver in pcm  and listen again.

The voice now is perfectly in the center of the scene between the speaker

The difference is clear to me and to my friend using two identical W4S Dac 2 dsdSe.

For us the problem is concrete.

I'm trying to involve Singxer...

In the past my friend had the same problem with Hydra z but Audiobyte solved the problem with the firmware update.

It is strange the you don't have the same problem...

 

Andrea 

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Andrea, I will devote more time to looking at this 180 degree phase issue over the weekend. It is something I am not familiar with. It would be good if I could create it so I know what it sounds like.

 


2 modified PCs in a streamer with WS2012/ AO 2.20/ Jplay 7/ Fidelizer Pro 8.2/ Process Lasso/

Pachanko lan cables & PPA ethernet switch between pcs > Audio PC JCat Femto usb audio card > iFi Gemini 3.0 dual headed usb cable > iFi iGalvanic > iFi iUsb power 3.0   > iFi iPurifier 3 > Singxer SU-1 (i2s out) > Wyred 4 Sound DAC2V2 DSDse >

1) maxed out Woo WA2 > Beyerdynamic T1 w/ Forza Noir hybrid cable mod

2) Woo WA2 pre amp > Exposure 2010S2 Int Amp + Exposure 2010S2 Power Amp > Von Gaylord Legend Speakers + REL T-5 Sub-Bass System

***Audio system powered by two Equi=Core 300 balanced power sources                                                       

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thanks a lot Fran.

You should recognise, in case, a different position of the voice, between if ok or behind the speakers with phase inverted.

In any case tell me your firmware and switches configuration when you can.

 

 

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7 hours ago, billiam said:

I just sent my DSDse in for the mod, and I also use a Singxer in between my computer and DAC, connecting with AES/EBU. Pretty much just use PCM

 

I've never used i2s and was wondering if anyone has an opinion as to what input is sonically superior using the Singxer/2v2se configuration. I am pretty content with AES/EBU. Would using i2s be an improvement worthy of getting my Singxer "fixed" to use the i2s?

In my opinion sonically the I2S is the better connection even if I'm having some problems about dsd reproduction with the inverted phase through it with the Singxer SU-1.  

With pcm the reproduction is ok

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3 hours ago, Franatic said:

Andrea, I will devote more time to looking at this 180 degree phase issue over the weekend. It is something I am not familiar with. It would be good if I could create it so I know what it sounds like.

 

An out of phase stereo signal results in a very diffuse image with a lack of bass and no good center image. It can easily be heard on any system by simply reversing the polarity of one speaker's connections, just switch the + and - wires at either the speaker or amp for one channel only. Hope this helps!

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17 minutes ago, audio.bill said:

An out of phase stereo signal results in a very diffuse image with a lack of bass and no good center image. It can easily be heard on any system by simply reversing the polarity of one speaker's connections, just switch the + and - wires at either the speaker or amp for one channel only. Hope this helps!

Yes, good tip.....and an audio friend said it can also be diagnosed easier with a mono track. If phasing is correct, the sound should stay in the center if you move side to side in a room. I'll get a chance to look at this tomorrow.


2 modified PCs in a streamer with WS2012/ AO 2.20/ Jplay 7/ Fidelizer Pro 8.2/ Process Lasso/

Pachanko lan cables & PPA ethernet switch between pcs > Audio PC JCat Femto usb audio card > iFi Gemini 3.0 dual headed usb cable > iFi iGalvanic > iFi iUsb power 3.0   > iFi iPurifier 3 > Singxer SU-1 (i2s out) > Wyred 4 Sound DAC2V2 DSDse >

1) maxed out Woo WA2 > Beyerdynamic T1 w/ Forza Noir hybrid cable mod

2) Woo WA2 pre amp > Exposure 2010S2 Int Amp + Exposure 2010S2 Power Amp > Von Gaylord Legend Speakers + REL T-5 Sub-Bass System

***Audio system powered by two Equi=Core 300 balanced power sources                                                       

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Andrea, after more investigation and a better idea of what I'm listening for, I now agree there is a phase shift when playing DSD through the Singxer. I switched phase on my left speaker. I can now hear the vocals that were surround sound-like being placed in the center. Let me know if Singxer replies to your request to look into it.

In the mean time, DSD still sounds great, it just has "spatial issues"

On 4/6/2017 at 10:20 PM, billiam said:

I've never used i2s and was wondering if anyone has an opinion as to what input is sonically superior using the Singxer/2v2se configuration. I am pretty content with AES/EBU. Would using i2s be an improvement worthy of getting my Singxer "fixed" to use the i2s?

billiam, I've used the AES, Coax and i2s, the i2s is the best. AES and Coax were very close and just a matter of preference.

AES-very controlled and detailed

Coax- more musical than AES, not as controlled or focused

i2s-has it all, focus, control, command and extraordinary details. Plus it is an input of the W4S that plays DSD, AES and Coax do not.

Edited by Franatic

2 modified PCs in a streamer with WS2012/ AO 2.20/ Jplay 7/ Fidelizer Pro 8.2/ Process Lasso/

Pachanko lan cables & PPA ethernet switch between pcs > Audio PC JCat Femto usb audio card > iFi Gemini 3.0 dual headed usb cable > iFi iGalvanic > iFi iUsb power 3.0   > iFi iPurifier 3 > Singxer SU-1 (i2s out) > Wyred 4 Sound DAC2V2 DSDse >

1) maxed out Woo WA2 > Beyerdynamic T1 w/ Forza Noir hybrid cable mod

2) Woo WA2 pre amp > Exposure 2010S2 Int Amp + Exposure 2010S2 Power Amp > Von Gaylord Legend Speakers + REL T-5 Sub-Bass System

***Audio system powered by two Equi=Core 300 balanced power sources                                                       

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I just saw this thread over on Head-Fi. SuperDad is aware of the DSD phase issue. I am confused as to firmware status and need to investigate more.

Andrea, if you get info from Singxer, let me know.

http://www.head-fi.org/t/839330/singxer-su-1-owners/165


2 modified PCs in a streamer with WS2012/ AO 2.20/ Jplay 7/ Fidelizer Pro 8.2/ Process Lasso/

Pachanko lan cables & PPA ethernet switch between pcs > Audio PC JCat Femto usb audio card > iFi Gemini 3.0 dual headed usb cable > iFi iGalvanic > iFi iUsb power 3.0   > iFi iPurifier 3 > Singxer SU-1 (i2s out) > Wyred 4 Sound DAC2V2 DSDse >

1) maxed out Woo WA2 > Beyerdynamic T1 w/ Forza Noir hybrid cable mod

2) Woo WA2 pre amp > Exposure 2010S2 Int Amp + Exposure 2010S2 Power Amp > Von Gaylord Legend Speakers + REL T-5 Sub-Bass System

***Audio system powered by two Equi=Core 300 balanced power sources                                                       

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33 minutes ago, Franatic said:

I just saw this thread over on Head-Fi. SuperDad is aware of the DSD phase issue. I am confused as to firmware status and need to investigate more.

Andrea, if you get info from Singxer, let me know.

http://www.head-fi.org/t/839330/singxer-su-1-owners/165

I read through that thread. My understanding is that the problem being discussed there is that the right and left channel are swapped on the i2s output from the Singxer going into the DAC2 i2s input. I suppose this is another result of there being no "standard" for i2s as a device to device interconnect. To fix this problem, Singxer has issued a new firmware. So there are two version of firmware and you have to try them both to see which one is right for your DAC. I'll need to do some testing today to see if this is even a problem with the DAC2 and, if it is, which of the two firmware correct it. I will post back my findings. As for the signals coming from the SU-1 being out of phase, I don't think swapping the R and L channels will fix that. 

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