Carlos Kleiber Beethoven 24/96 Studio Master vs 24/88.2 download

[CatManDo]

For the Universal Classics SHM-SACDs, the change from PCM sources (prepared around 2004) to analogue-to-DSD (made recently) is indicated in the booklet, and on the product page on CDJapan (in the japanese description text, use Google Translate). The transfers were made at the Emil Berliner Studios (DG recordings) or at Classic Sound (Decca recordings), the latter being a studio founded by former Decca engineers.

 

The Mahler 5 was an exception, mastered by Bob Ludwig from a 24/96 copy.

 

The Esoteric SACDs are not part of these reissues. Esoteric licenses the music and then gets PCM copies (either the old 24/96 transfers or new ones). They don't indicate this, but an Esoteric engineer has explained in an email that they play the PCM source through a DAC and the digitize it again to DSD, using their own converters.

[acousticsguru]

For the Universal Classics SHM-SACDs, the change from PCM sources (prepared around 2004) to analogue-to-DSD (made recently) is indicated in the booklet, and on the product page on CDJapan (in the japanese description text, use Google Translate). The transfers were made at the Emil Berliner Studios (DG recordings) or at Classic Sound (Decca recordings), the latter being a studio founded by former Decca engineers.

 

The Mahler 5 was an exception, mastered by Bob Ludwig from a 24/96 copy.

 

The Esoteric SACDs are not part of these reissues. Esoteric licenses the music and then gets PCM copies (either the old 24/96 transfers or new ones). They don't indicate this, but an Esoteric engineer has explained in an email that they play the PCM source through a DAC and the digitize it again to DSD, using their own converters.

 

Great info! But note the Mozart/Haskil I mentioned is not an Esoteric but Philips/Decca SHM-SACD, and that the Mahler/Solti isn't the only Bob Ludwig remastering in 24/96 (e.g. the Beethoven/Solti Eroica).

 

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

[HumanMedia]

now i have to hear all these new SHM-SACDs..

[ted_b]

For the Universal Classics SHM-SACDs, the change from PCM sources (prepared around 2004) to analogue-to-DSD (made recently) is indicated in the booklet, and on the product page on CDJapan (in the japanese description text, use Google Translate). The transfers were made at the Emil Berliner Studios (DG recordings) or at Classic Sound (Decca recordings), the latter being a studio founded by former Decca engineers.

 

The Mahler 5 was an exception, mastered by Bob Ludwig from a 24/96 copy.

 

The Esoteric SACDs are not part of these reissues. Esoteric licenses the music and then gets PCM copies (either the old 24/96 transfers or new ones). They don't indicate this, but an Esoteric engineer has explained in an email that they play the PCM source through a DAC and the digitize it again to DSD, using their own converters.

 

Claude, good info but then I'm confused. I am on the CDJapan page with the Kleiber, and it shows a release date of Nov 2010, which was before the Berliner analog-to-DSD project redo, right? It's the only Kleiber SACD on the CDJapan site AFAIK.

Beethoven: Symphonis No.5 & No.7 [sHM-SACD] [Limited Release] Carlos Kleiber SACD - CDJapan

 

However, this one looks good, right (Mravinsky Tchaikovsky 6th)?

Tchaikovsky: Symphony No.6 [sHM-SACD] [Limited Release] [sACD] Evgeny Mravinsky (conductor) / Leningrad Philharmonic Orchestra SACD - CDJapan

[CatManDo]

That's correct. The Kleiber as well as three Argerich and three Kubelik SHM-SACDs were released shortly before Universal moved to new DSD transfers, in late 2011.

 

Here's a list of Universal Japan SACDs: SA-CD.net - Universal (Japan)

[blaven]

So.., read the entire thread:

 

What's the best DOWNLOAD in the US. (No VPN tricks or SACD rips)

 

e-onkyo?? Or can I now get irbid Linn??

 

Or do I get the Bluray?

 

Thanks

[wdw]

?...... or just another PCM-contaminated half-breed?....

Wow...that's a strong statement! No intent to argue but the sentiment is very strong. I have only listened to PCM, albeit very good PCM, but is DSD so much better that it demands this language? I have never listened to DSD so ask in all innocence.

Warren

[acousticsguru]

So.., read the entire thread:

 

What's the best DOWNLOAD in the US. (No VPN tricks or SACD rips)

 

e-onkyo?? Or can I now get irbid Linn??

 

Or do I get the Bluray?

 

Thanks

 

I own and/or have compared this recording in all existing formats, and on my system (Daniel Hertz Masterclass, dCS, Spectral, MIT etc.) get the best sound from the 24/96 Studio Master download, very close second best from the louder but otherwise presumably identical Blu-ray (so that it should sound the same, but it only does so almost), so in your case, I'd go for the latter.

 

(The e-Onkyo sounds a bit ethereal and ever-so-slightly lightweight, typical for a 24/192 conversion from a SHM-SACD, especially in this case one that in turn is based on always the same 24/96 remaster that, apart from the volume adjustment, appears to have been transferred as such onto the Blu-ray.)

 

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

[acousticsguru]

Wow...that's a strong statement! No intent to argue but the sentiment is very strong. I have only listened to PCM, albeit very good PCM, but is DSD so much better that it demands this language? I have never listened to DSD so ask in all innocence.

Warren

 

Ripping the SHM-SACD reveals it contains the exact same ISO as the 2003 SACD, which in turn is based on the same 24/96 remaster as all current releases - sonically only different due to the surface of the disc, in other words, once ripped, same thing. As to DSD versus PCM, I personally do not believe in the superiority of one format over the other. I believe in analogue as well as high-resolution digital, and that there's always room for better recordings and remasterings. In essence, it's people applying technology wisely that results in superior sound, not a matter of principle. (As in the case of this famous recording from the analogue era, where technology has since not been applied as wisely as it could have.) Just my two cents worth, of course.

 

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

[blaven]

Without using a VPN tunnel etc, is there anyway to get e-onkyo downloads in the US??

This is the message on their site:

 

We currently can not allow customers outside of Japan to purchase digital products on e-onkyo music due to licensing restrictions.

If you are in Japan, please contact us

.

[firedog]

AFAIK, there isn't. They are supposed to be opening a US store throught a partner...soon.

 

 

Without using a VPN tunnel etc, is there anyway to get e-onkyo downloads in the US??

This is the message on their site:

 

We currently can not allow customers outside of Japan to purchase digital products on e-onkyo music due to licensing restrictions.

If you are in Japan, please contact us

.

[acousticsguru]

Easy to rip a Blu-ray, though. There's step-by-step instruction on this very site. And you get to keep a hardcopy for backup.

 

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

[DMM]

Sorry to relive this old thread...

Someone can confirm that the Qobuz download is actually "24-96 (master)"

I ask this because the bluray version [Complete Orchestral Recordings on Deutsche Grammophon] seems to come from a remaster pcm (from the sacd[?], which in turn comes from pcm)

 

Beethoven (classical noise of the modulator)

Instead, Schubert seems to be fine

And Brahms is of origin 16-44.1

I am interested in the version as close as possible to the master

Sorry for my english

 

[acousticsguru]

43 minutes ago, DMM said:

Sorry to relive this old thread...

Someone can confirm that the Qobuz download is actually "24-96 (master)"

 

I ask this because the bluray version [Complete Orchestral Recordings on Deutsche Grammophon] seems to come from a remaster pcm (from the sacd[?], which in turn comes from pcm)

 

Beethoven (classical noise of the modulator)

Instead, Schubert seems to be fine

And Brahms is of origin 16-44.1

I am interested in the version as close as possible to the master

Sorry for my english

 

 

Some stuff never ceases to amaze me… So this is from the Kleiber box-set? Another case of the right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing…

 

Quickly checked the separate "Pure Audio" Blu-ray content of the Beethoven (I'm assuming you're referring to the Beethoven 5 & 7 only), as well as the Quobuz download. No out-of-band (DSD modulation) noise on either (i.e. a genuine PCM transfer as indicated earlier, in this thread or elsewhere).

 

I actually compared the sound of these two releases (all of them except the one you're pointing out now), and remember preferring the download (which is what I've been listening to since). Note one needs to adjust the volume for a fair comparison, as the Blu-ray content is noticeably louder.

 

The fact that the "Pure Audio" Blu-ray release is level-adjusted to 0 dB and the download isn't makes me think that the latter is closest to the source - and it represents the best-sounding release of all (including, of course, the SACDs and the e-Onkyo conversion thereof). That is assuming the download has remained the same all these years and not been "updated".

 

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

[miguelito]

On 4/24/2013 at 2:22 PM, dl2 said:

all sacd's, - even the dsd recordings is mastered as pcm( also some dxd recordings used for few sacd disks is 24/352,8 khz, so is 24 bit not 1 bit )

anyway, the 1bit sound is different from pcm in our gears.

Not quite...

 

Some mastering engineers use a recording process where they record to digital, then use a DAC to feed an analog mixing console, off of which they could do direct to DSD or PCM. 

 

PCM is useful because it allows mixing and level setting. The issue with DSD is that amplitude (volume) is spread over time so it is not adjustable in the same way as a full 24bit sample is. There's a technique used in the Sonoma recording system to get around this - I think it internally subdivides the 1-bit stream in "samples" of 4 bits, allowing you to adjust that.

[firedog]

Pretty sure this one was converted from analog to high res PCM, then turned into DSD, then somebody took the DSD and marketed hires 24-88, derived from then DSD.

Get the 24 96.

With older classical recording (mid 90's and before) it's not unusual to see SACD derived from PCM or even Redbook That's because the target market was people who mostly wanted 5 channel for an SACD player, and weren't really looking for hires. It wasn't a trick, it would be stated on the SACD how it was recorded.

Unfortunately, the SACD then gets turned into "high res" PCM by someone.

Doesnt happen much anymore, because high res recording is commonplace.

But especially older recordings and any SACD, smart to check the source.

[acousticsguru]

This topic has been discussed at length: this recording was transferred from analogue to a 24/96 PCM master, from which all digital conversions are derived starting with the "DG Originals" redbook CD (then came the hybrid SACD, the SHM-SACD next, the separate Blu-ray etc.). There appears to be no other transfer from analogue to digital, whether before nor after. So for the time being, the so-called "Studio Master" download is as close as it gets.

 

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

[DMM]

 

16 hours ago, acousticsguru said:

Quickly checked the separate "Pure Audio" Blu-ray content of the Beethoven (I'm assuming you're referring to the Beethoven 5 & 7 only), as well as the Quobuz download. No out-of-band (DSD modulation) noise on either (i.e. a genuine PCM transfer as indicated earlier, in this thread or elsewhere).

 

 

Thanks!

[nicholasg]

But according to the back of the 2014 Complete Orchestral Recording  3 CD + 1 BD box set the recordings are "newly remastered versions of Kleiber’s orchestral recordings at 24 bit / 96 kHz"

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00K03VZXS/ref=cm_cd_asin_lnk

 

Is this the same as the BD: -

 

http://www.qobuz.com/at-de/album/ludwig-van-beethoven-symphonies-n5-n7-wiener-philharmoniker-carlos-kleiber/0002894790548

 

OR are the latest remasters only available on the BD?

 

On 7/5/2017 at 5:11 AM, acousticsguru said:

This topic has been discussed at length: this recording was transferred from analogue to a 24/96 PCM master, from which all digital conversions are derived starting with the "DG Originals" redbook CD (then came the hybrid SACD, the SHM-SACD next, the separate Blu-ray etc.). There appears to be no other transfer from analogue to digital, whether before nor after. So for the time being, the so-called "Studio Master" download is as close as it gets.

 

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

[acousticsguru]

Some remasterings included in the box-set, but in this particular case, the Beethoven has only been normalized (level-adjusted for the peaks to reach the full 0 dB, a procedure that, to my ears, makes a recording, if anything, sound fractionally worse, although measurably, there's no difference except it's louder).

 

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

[Darryl R]

On 8/18/2017 at 3:39 AM, acousticsguru said:

Some remasterings included in the box-set, but in this particular case, the Beethoven has only been normalized (level-adjusted for the peaks to reach the full 0 dB, a procedure that, to my ears, makes a recording, if anything, sound fractionally worse, although measurably, there's no difference except it's louder).

 

Perhaps the acousticsguru could renderer his opinion on the new Esoteric Kleiber, but only after he is done traversing middle Europe's audio shows and wine sampling venues

 

[acousticsguru]

20 minutes ago, Darryl R said:

 

Perhaps the acousticsguru could renderer his opinion on the new Esoteric Kleiber, but only after he is done traversing middle Europe's audio shows and wine sampling venues

 

 

Hey! A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do! 😉

[Darryl R]

I found the new Esoteric Kleiber Beethoven release to be only marginally more refined.  In fact, some may even prefer the 24/96 release for its slightly higher output level.  More to the point, I don't think the new Esoteric release is worth the cash.

 

However, the brand new Giulini Brucker 9 is another story ...

[Patrick Cleasby]

The 24/96 from Qobuz (France) is(was) quieter/kosher. Don't know if one can download it in the states, but it's the way to go on this one.

[acousticsguru]

2 hours ago, Patrick Cleasby said:

The 24/96 from Qobuz (France) is(was) quieter/kosher. Don't know if one can download it in the states, but it's the way to go on this one.

 

Interesting way of putting it. The Esoteric seems a little souped or beefed up, but the more I listen to it, the more tastefully I think it's done - reminiscent of an XRCD (there have been more and less successful remasterings there over the years as well). I'm frankly a bit undecided, which is why I didn't reply to Darryl earlier. It's true that the Qobuz remastering may be the most neutral, perhaps even faithful to the master tape (that's always a guess), while the Esoteric seems to share qualities with the LP (I no longer have a turntable, speaking strictly from memory), and given it's a Japanese release, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that may habe been what the remastering engineers had in mind. If anything, I wonder if the sound stage width and depth (acoustic phase faithfulness) may have been affected by the use of e.g. an equalizer, but again, without direct comparison to the LP, I find it hard to call one better or worse. For sure, given the Esoteric SACD is expensive, I'll say it's not a must-buy - neither sounds miraculous, both sound plenty good enough, and at any rate, the performances and/or interpretations (speaking as someone who collects recordings based on performance quality, not "audiophile" recordings based on sound quality) are legendary, absolutely essential.

 

Greetings from Switzerland, David.