Ayre wants $1.5K for DSD'ed QB-9

[Charles Hansen]

Charles.. Credit where it's due some of your posts are very useful; but some are just rants...

 

Your last post about Apple and UPnP is full of factual errors... Here's a few:

 

Hello Eloise,

 

Thanks for correcting some of the errors in my post. But it is very frustrating to have to put up with the attitude of Apple, whether as an end user or as a manufacturer. My son first bought a iPod Nano 4th Gen. We bought a Mikey microphone for it. It was a large purchase for a 12-year old, but he got some good use from it. He is very talented musically and recorded many parts and then would import them into Garage Band to create some very nice recordings. When the next generation of iPods was released, he wanted to buy the Touch as it had more memory and could create 4 track recordings within the device itself. So he saved up his money and bought the new iPod -- only to find out that the Mikey didn't work.

 

The previous iPods had a built-in A/D converter so the accessory mic only needed a preamp. But the new generation removed the A/D converter. There were a couple of companies that made accessory mics and they had to redesign them completely. They had to include an internal A/D converter as now the only input on the 30-pin was digital. This caused many problems. One was that it took about 18 months (literally!) before a microphone accessory became available. The price of them had tripled due to the extra complexity. And then Apple was giving them a hard time because they drew current from the iPod batteries, shortening the battery life! So what should have been a great upgrade turned into a giant nightmare -- for us as end users, for the accessory manufacturers (Blue had literally released Mikey II a few weeks before and it was instantly obsolete), and for anybody who had previously purchased accessories that were now useless.

 

I use Windows computers because the CAD programs that I design our products on are only available in Windows versions. Installing iTunes on a Windows computer is something of a nightmare. It takes several hundred megabytes of bloatware and invades countless areas of your computer. Just read the uninstall instructions on the Apple website. There are six or seven different programs that have to be uninstalled in a specific order or it won't work. So I tried to find some other music player that was compatible with his iPod. Well at that time J.River wouldn't support ALAC and the iPod wouldn't support FLAC (and still doesn't!) So the choices were pretty miserable -- he could listen to squshed music in low resolution or WAV files without any metadata as that was the only uncompressed format that was common to them both. Foobar had a fairly complex system worked out whereby one could transfer music to and from the iPod, but I really wanted to use J.River. I called the developers and they just laughed at me. They said that they had spent so much time trying to make it work, and every time they did, Apple would deliberately make a change to "break" the system. They seriously did not want you to use ANYTHING except iTunes with your iPod.

 

iTunes is bad enough on a Mac (one way tranfers only, limited file naming if you like classical music, etc) but to add it to a Windows machine was a complete new level of frustration, where installing iTunes clogged your whole computer, forcing you to also install QuickTime and bunches of other programs that I had no use for. And then just as the accessory companies are building new microphones with the required A/D converters, Apple is now switching over to the Lightning connector. We joined the Made For iPod (MFi) group a year or so ago. Apple wants to know more about you than the IRS. We spent a long time reading all the documentation and submitting product plans and then a few weeks ago got an e-mail that says they are changing the entire program, and now we can't even make our own products any more. Instead we have to RE-apply for a "Developer's" license so that we can have an authorized "Manufacturer" make the products for us... Fun, fun, fun...

 

The whole experience was pretty ridiculous compared to just purchasing a Sansa Clip +. With that you just connect it up to your computer and it looks like an external hard drive. You just drag and drop songs in either direction. You don't even need any external program, let alone a giant piece of bloat ware that invades your entire computer. Plus the Clip + accepts 32 GB external memory cards, so you just buy a few of those, and you can organize them into different libraries. It has a built in FM tuner and the audio playback hardware sounds better and it's only $59....

 

The bottom line is that their business model may work for them, but it doesn't work for people like us that are just small little companies trying to get the best possible sound quality for our customers. The iPods wont communicate with any external hardware that doesn't have the "authentication chip" built into it, and the only way to get that is to do it the way Apple dictates -- which changes every year. We like to have products with a longer useful lifespan than just a year, but it seems that planned obsolescence is part of Apples business model. The most famous example of that marketing approach was the US automobile manufacturers. Well we can all see whee that strategy has taken them now....

 

Regards,

[silvertone]

 

By the end of the year we will probably introduce two more DACs with more features, one in the 5 series and one in the R series.

Best regards,

 

This is music to my ears!! No pun intended

 

If I had it my way the Ayre "R" DAC would have:

 

-An analog volume control implementation, the same as in the KX-R preamp

-Balanced analog inputs to bypass additional analog preamp

-Dual-mono design

-At least 21 bits of resolution (>130 dB SNR)

-130 db of channel separation (20 Hz - 20 KHz) for rock solid imaging

-A nice built-in LCD screen that displays the artwork of the album being played

 

Is that too much to ask for?

[elcorso]

Hey guys: So, what is the best of the usual suspects (ie not HQplayer) to use to play back DSD files? I have tried Pure Music, but it (still!) seems really a PITA for DSD, and does not play gapless either. It appears from a casual view that jRiver is the "best" option? Does it play gapless via DoP? I currently have a beta version USB interface here which is DoP capable, and I would like to do some sound quality comparisons of DSD native vs 24/176.4 conversions, but using Pure Music is inadequate to the task. Without seemless gapless playback DSD is a total non-starter for me...

 

Barrows,

 

Please try Audirvana Plus (no iTunes integration).

 

I just loaded two tracks in the playlist, Holly Cole's "Temptation":

 

The first one DSD64 - From Analogue Productions, analog to DSD.

 

The second one 24/176.4 - Converted by Audiogate from the original DSD.

 

DoP from exaSound e20

 

Best,

 

Roch

 

PS/ I don't know if this track is available for DL in PCM 24/176.4

[barrows]

Roch: Will Audirvana Plus play gapless with DSD (via DoP) without any glitches?

Curious also: eXa vs. Playback Designs?

[elcorso]

Roch: Will Audirvana Plus play gapless with DSD (via DoP) without any glitches?

Curious also: eXa vs. Playback Designs?

 

No glitches at all.

 

eXa vs. PD? Is not a just comparison, since PD is native (native DSD) and eXa is DoP... I don't want to discuss this because everybody says both are "native". Then both are native... No discussion allowed, at least from my side.

 

The eXa is not integer/direct mode capable, but is powered by an external LPSU (KingRex Mark II) and I don't use his own non digital volume control. I tried a lot of DACs and this little unit could never be ashamed by the others and wins by a big margin on PCM Redbook to much more expensive units, but never tried the Ayre.

 

Roch

[firedog]

Hey guys: So, what is the best of the usual suspects (ie not HQplayer) to use to play back DSD files? I have tried Pure Music, but it (still!) seems really a PITA for DSD, and does not play gapless either. It appears from a casual view that jRiver is the "best" option? Does it play gapless via DoP? I currently have a beta version USB interface here which is DoP capable, and I would like to do some sound quality comparisons of DSD native vs 24/176.4 conversions, but using Pure Music is inadequate to the task. Without seemless gapless playback DSD is a total non-starter for me...

 

Barrows-

 

I don't know how applicable my experience is to yours, as I use windows and not Linux. JRiver is great for DSD and even has a tagger that lets you tag dsf files. I playback over FW/WASAPI and have zero issues now - until recently there were some "pops" when playing from track to track with DSD if you weren't playing all the tunes continously on one album. Apparently there was a driver/buffering issue that's been solved. And yes, it does play Gapless, DSOTM and Classical records play fine.

 

I don't have any problems with USB either, but there is a just barely noticeable noise if you jump from track to track if a DSD file is one of them. This might be solvable by changing the buffer size - I haven't tried as it isn't really an issue for me. USB will probably work better on Linux than Windows anyway. I'm sure Jesus could help you if there are any issues (I doubt there will be).

 

Will be interested in hearing the results of your comparisons. I've done my own, but I won't prejudice your results by writing about it.

[russtafarian]

Paul: Can you confirm glitch free DSD (via DoP) playback gapless via jRiver and Windows as well as OSX?

 

I can confirm Gapless DSD via DoP with Jriver 18 on a Windows 7 laptop.

 

Russ

[Paul R]

JRiver 18 under windows, yes. I think I tried it on MacOS and it worked fine, but I will need to retest that to be sure.

 

-Paul

 

 

Paul: Can you confirm glitch free DSD (via DoP) playback gapless via jRiver and Windows as well as OSX?

[Paul R]

Hi Charles - I usually tend to agree, at least partially with you on this, but I definitely have different opinions about Apple. At least, for the most part.

 

Let me just address the developer part though -

 

Do you, as a DAC developer, provide anyone who wants it with a free copy of the software you need to program your DACs? Along with all the documentation needed to understand every tiny piece of the firmware?

 

Apple does just that, plus more.

 

-Paul

[Robert Hutton]

Hi Charles - I usually tend to agree, at least partially with you on this, but I definitely have different opinions about Apple. At least, for the most part.

 

Let me just address the developer part though -

 

Do you, as a DAC developer, provide anyone who wants it with a free copy of the software you need to program your DACs? Along with all the documentation needed to understand every tiny piece of the firmware?

 

Apple does just that, plus more.

 

-Paul

 

The difference, I think, is that Ayre doesn't operate as if it were a monopoly and aspire to be one, and doesn't operate to push any challenger out of the market so they can control it.

 

For all the hip, groovy facade of Apple and the mythical status of Steve Jobs, Apple is simply an old fashioned corporate bully.

[labjr]

The difference, I think, is that Ayre doesn't operate as if it were a monopoly and aspire to be one, and doesn't operate to push any challenger out of the market so they can control it.

 

For all the hip, groovy facade of Apple and the mythical status of Steve Jobs, Apple is simply an old fashioned corporate bully.

 

Steve Jobs did a lot of bullying openly. And some of the stuff behind the scenes was leaked. I can only imagine the part we didn't see. I wonder if this will change with him gone. He was like a dictator.

[Paul R]

Seems to me it is Microsoft and Windows that constantly gets brought into court over monopolistic practices, but I could be wrong. Certainly, like any other vendor, they have to be kicked around a bit sometimes, but almost always, I am happy and satisfied with my transactions with Apple. Like high end audio, some people choose to use other equipment, usually based on perceived cost. And like in high end audio, that isn't always a great idea- depends upon what they compromise.

 

Apple is a very successful business, and yet, treats customers like real people in real stores, with real support on every product for every customer, liberal return policies, and the best products out there in terms of laptops, tablets, phones, and operating systems.

 

Yeah right - that's really treating the customer wrong.

 

Needless to say, I find it amusing that you find music companies quite admirable in their business practices, and yet go after Apple like that....

 

The difference, I think, is that Ayre doesn't operate as if it were a monopoly and aspire to be one, and doesn't operate to push any challenger out of the market so they can control it.

 

For all the hip, groovy facade of Apple and the mythical status of Steve Jobs, Apple is simply an old fashioned corporate bully.

[pawel8]

IMHO:

Successful business yes.

Liberal return policy yes.

Best operating system no.

Best phone NO!

Best laptop-possibly.

Best tablet YES.

Making silly new connections only to collect more money-YES!(ie lightning,thunderbolt).

 

Apple is a very successful business, and yet, treats customers like real people in real stores, with real support on every product for every customer, liberal return policies, and the best products out there in terms of laptops, tablets, phones, and operating systems.

[Miska]

I build my own PC's and put Windows or Linux on those. Or I take or build some suitable ARM based platform from a suitable SoC as I want, and put Linux on it.

 

Windows has widest 3rd party hardware and software support. But I don't need Windows for my work, my CADs and programming tools work on Linux much better.

 

And with Linux I can customize every single piece of the OS to any extent I want to my purposes. My network audio adapter fits in to few megabytes of FLASH and takes few megabytes of RAM (including OS) to run. And it has all display and other unnecessary things disabled, powered down, or plain doesn't exist at all in the hardware. You don't need a GPU for audio - it just generates electrical noise.

 

So far, Windows 8 is the best full-blown OS with proper touch support for running modern GUIs and heavy processing together.

 

If you want nice case work, yeah, Apple has it. But I rather have industrial passive-cooled aluminum case powered through my own custom linear PSU, with Core i7 inside.

 

OS X doesn't support my 23" multi-touch monitor sitting on top of my equipment rack. Windows does, Linux does.

[Paul R]

To each their own - this is my idea of a Linux powered computer. Well, at least a computer that runs a few hundred Linux guests nicely. It is one of the best built computers in the world.

 

 

 

Relatively speaking, Apple has the same kind of great quality control, and puts it into a mass market product.

 

-Paul

 

 

 

 

I build my own PC's and put Windows or Linux on those. Or I take or build some suitable ARM based platform from a suitable SoC as I want, and put Linux on it.

 

Windows has widest 3rd party hardware and software support. But I don't need Windows for my work, my CADs and programming tools work on Linux much better.

 

And with Linux I can customize every single piece of the OS to any extent I want to my purposes. My network audio adapter fits in to few megabytes of FLASH and takes few megabytes of RAM (including OS) to run. And it has all display and other unnecessary things disabled, powered down, or plain doesn't exist at all in the hardware. You don't need a GPU for audio - it just generates electrical noise.

 

So far, Windows 8 is the best full-blown OS with proper touch support for running modern GUIs and heavy processing together.

 

If you want nice case work, yeah, Apple has it. But I rather have industrial passive-cooled aluminum case powered through my own custom linear PSU, with Core i7 inside.

 

OS X doesn't support my 23" multi-touch monitor sitting on top of my equipment rack. Windows does, Linux does.

[baddog]

I have to admit it, this thread is quite the wild ride, from discussions of upgrade costs, to the relative merits of different audio formats, and the trade offs between different operating systems and their corporate practices. All that is missing is a discussion regarding HDTracks...

 

And please, before I get flamed, I don't mean this with any ill intent, it has been a fascinating read.

[Audio_ELF]

Miska...

 

You heard it here first... It's official... There is someone who likes Windows 8 (ducks).

 

:-)

 

Eloise

[mav52]

I have to admit it, this thread is quite the wild ride, from discussions of upgrade costs, to the relative merits of different audio formats, and the trade offs between different operating systems and their corporate practices. All that is missing is a discussion regarding HDTracks...

 

And please, before I get flamed, I don't mean this with any ill intent, it has been a fascinating read.

 

Agree, it is starting to move a ways off topic, now what was that update fee for an existing QB-9

[tailspn]

To each their own - this is my idea of a Linux powered computer. Well, at least a computer that runs a few hundred Linux guests nicely. It is one of the best built computers in the world.

 

Wow, how times have changed. I worked for IBM in both Poughkeepsie and Endicott a lifetime ago, when they were primarily a hardware manufacturer. We used to be able to tell how the stock was going to do by walking down to the manufacturing floor and counting the mainframes in final test. The customer's name used to be on a placard above their bay of hardware. These were huge water cooled monsters. Looking inside that server, how much do you think IBM now manufactures, as opposed to bought out? The cabinet?

[Miska]

To each their own - this is my idea of a Linux powered computer. Well, at least a computer that runs a few hundred Linux guests nicely. It is one of the best built computers in the world.

 

But definitely not the best music playback computer. I build better computers for that purpose.

 

Btw, is that designed by you and you alone? Not bad if it is.

 

I care about what I personally design and develop. Others can do what they want the way they like. As long as I get what I want when I do what I want.

[Miska]

You heard it here first... It's official... There is someone who likes Windows 8 (ducks).

 

Yes I like it, because I like a powerful CPU inside a touch screen tablet capable of running full oversampling and delta-sigma modulation stage (at the performance level I want, when necessary) and feeding the result wirelessly to a DAC that doesn't do any of that, but just conversion to analog. That's what I want and it fits the picture perfectly. That's my vision of future.

 

(maybe I have to buy a Lampizator DSD DAC? but I really expect more similar devices)

[wisnon]

How far is Finland from Poland?

LoL

[Audio_ELF]

How far is Finland from Poland?

LoL

By land or sea?

[baddog]

How far is Finland from Poland?

LoL

 

 

At last, something for which I know the answer!

 

Between 1431km and 1708km.

 

About 22-25 hours driving time (including ferry)

 

Do I win one of those Lampizator DSD DACs? That would be great.

 

 

[wisnon]

By land or sea?

 

Or by air?

 

LoL