vortecjr Posted June 9, 2013 Share Posted June 9, 2013 Hello Jesus, When we changed from the Burr-Brown DAC chip to the ESS, we retained our proprietary digital filter implemented in a Xilinx FPGA. In both cases we bypassed the internal digital filter, which I know is 8x in the B-B and believe is also 8x in the ESS although they are not so forthcoming with the internal workings of their parts. Our digital filter operates at 16x for single sample rates, 8x for dual sample rates, and 4x for quad sample rates. Therefore the output to the DAC is 705.6/768 kHz regardless of the original data rate. There are ten sets of filter coefficients -- "Listen" and "Measure" for the 4 data rates gives 8, plus we also have two more for pre-emphasized 44 and 48 kHz data for a total of ten. All filters are minimum-phase (no pre-ringing) and all are accomplished in a single pass (no compounding of rounding errors). We use 32-bit filter coefficients and a 64-bit data accumulator so there can never be any clipping due to data overflow. The default mode for the ESS chip uses an ASRC (asynchronous sample rate converter), but I prefer to use the original data from the disc instead of replacing it with other data, so we bypass the ASRC. In our rests we found that these parts give higher performance with a higher clock speed, so we changed from 512 Fs master clocks to 1024 Fs master clocks. These run synchronously with the incoming data. I believe (but don't know for sure) that the modulator inside the ESS chips runs at the same rate as the master clock. This means that there is an additional 32x oversampling filter inside the ESS. Most companies use what is called a "zero order hold" for he interpolator, which means that they feed it the same sample 32 times in a row. I have heard a rumor that ESS is the only company that does something more sophisticated than this, but I don't know if that is true, or if so, what it is that they do. Since we are not licensees of Sony, we do not have to follow the recommendations of the Scarlet Book. The ESS chip has lower levels of OOB noise than most other chips, so we use a much gentler filter than the normal 3rd order at 50 kHz thatis required by the Scarlet Book. We have a split pole design with one pole at 80 kHz the other at around 200 kHz. Also our equipment is completely undisturbed by the OOB noise as everything is built with zero-feedback, fully-balanced circuitry using JFET inputs. We have been using a similar design in the C-5xe for nearly a decade and have only run into compatibility problems in one case. One customer had a vacuum tube preamp that was transformer coupled. The transformers were poorly designed and the combination of the leakage inductance and the stray capacitance led to a +10 dB peak at around 130 kHz. He could hear some high frequency "birdies". Further investigation showed that this occurred with ALL SACD players, but just at a somewhat lower level with units that complied with the spec. Best regards, Charles, I appreciate the detailed response! It sounds to me like a fantastic upgrade for your customers.... Jesus R SONORE computer audio | opticalRendu | ultraRendu | microRendu | Signature Rendu SE | endPoint | opticalModule DX | Power Supplies | Link to comment
mav52 Posted June 9, 2013 Share Posted June 9, 2013 Miska DOES design this stuff... Yes a software product and Miska designs a good product.. what I noted was designing, engineering, building and selling their OWN product. Which means hardware in the form of a DAC. The Truth Is Out There Link to comment
beetlemania Posted June 9, 2013 Share Posted June 9, 2013 Chris... I really don't know why you haven't locked it... Thankfully, he didn't. Many posts have been highly informative and with interesting perspectives, especially those from Charles Hansen. IMO, Charles' main weakness herein has been responding to the incessant needling from those who seem to value a particular format over the music itself. Barry Diament received a similar treatment on another thread after he failed to properly exalt DSD. Roon ROCK (Roon 1.7; NUC7i3) > Ayre QB-9 Twenty > Ayre AX-5 Twenty > Thiel CS2.4SE (crossovers rebuilt with Clarity CSA and Multicap RTX caps, Mills MRA-12 resistors; ERSE and Jantzen coils; Cardas binding posts and hookup wire); Cardas and OEM power cables, interconnects, and speaker cables Link to comment
Audio_ELF Posted June 9, 2013 Share Posted June 9, 2013 Thankfully, he didn't. Many posts have been highly informative and with interesting perspectives, especially those from Charles Hansen. IMO, Charles' main weakness herein has been responding to the incessant needling from those who seem to value a particular format over the music itself. Barry Diament received a similar treatment on another thread after he failed to properly exalt DSD. From what I saw though... Barry displayed a "in my opinion DSD isn't an improvement" attitude; where as Charles is displaying a "DSD is bad; and if you don't agree with me you're an idiot and blinded by Sony" attitude. Eloise Eloise --- ...in my opinion / experience... While I agree "Everything may matter" working out what actually affects the sound is a trickier thing. And I agree "Trust your ears" but equally don't allow them to fool you - trust them with a bit of skepticism. keep your mind open... But mind your brain doesn't fall out. Link to comment
Audio_ELF Posted June 9, 2013 Share Posted June 9, 2013 Which means hardware in the form of a DAC. I believe Miska does "design, engineer and build" his own DACs though I will give you that he doesn't sell them! I believe he is qualified to comment though! Eloise Eloise --- ...in my opinion / experience... While I agree "Everything may matter" working out what actually affects the sound is a trickier thing. And I agree "Trust your ears" but equally don't allow them to fool you - trust them with a bit of skepticism. keep your mind open... But mind your brain doesn't fall out. Link to comment
pawel8 Posted June 9, 2013 Share Posted June 9, 2013 Maybe Chris should lock it out and we can start all over with new one: Ayre wants 0.5k for dsded qb9! I have been on Alex of Ayre s... List for a while due to misunderstanding and some comments about previous products. Qb9 was/is very good product. Good engineering and knowledge off does not necessarily leads to successfully selling products. e.g. NOKIA - sorry Miska. Link to comment
elcorso Posted June 9, 2013 Share Posted June 9, 2013 hahaha: "This paper from 2005 is a little 'old' for modern times…" Nonsense. The analog limitations have not changed significantly in ten years. Really? At least I don't remember a piece of computer software or DAC (Digital Analogue Converter) DSD capable from the year 2005, at least for final users (like me). For recording studios & engineers could be another history, the same for SACD playing at a very different SQ level. Even the famous ESS Sabre was released on 2008: ESS Sabre Reference Audio DAC | Stereophile.com And we are talking 13 years not 10. Enjoy your Sunday (in a church or in a golf course, I ratter go fishing), Roch Link to comment
beetlemania Posted June 9, 2013 Share Posted June 9, 2013 From what I saw though... Barry displayed a "in my opinion DSD isn't an improvement" attitude; where as Charles is displaying a "DSD is bad; and if you don't agree with me you're an idiot and blinded by Sony" attitude. Eloise Looks like we read the same posts and came away with different interpretations of what was written. Here's a couple of posts from Barry Diament wherein he states his preference for "properly done 4x PCM": http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f8-general-forum/why-did-sacd-fail-16030/index2.html#post225404 http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/dsd-or-not-dsd-16093/index2.html#post226410 And here's Charles Hansen explaining "how to get the sonic advantages that were part of "DSD" into plain ol' vanilla PCM" along with several other significant practical advantages to PCM: http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/ayre-wants-%241-5k-dsded-qb-9-a-15650/index4.html#post225870 I read several of his posts where he argued - with compelling evidence - that DSD has no advantages over PCM but none wherein he wrote that "DSD is bad". But why should anyone care? If Hansen is right, DSD will remain niche market even among audiophiles. And if he's wrong? Hmmm . . . . I really can't imagine that my favorite artists will ever be available on DSD. Put me down for hoping that Pono takes off. Roon ROCK (Roon 1.7; NUC7i3) > Ayre QB-9 Twenty > Ayre AX-5 Twenty > Thiel CS2.4SE (crossovers rebuilt with Clarity CSA and Multicap RTX caps, Mills MRA-12 resistors; ERSE and Jantzen coils; Cardas binding posts and hookup wire); Cardas and OEM power cables, interconnects, and speaker cables Link to comment
beetlemania Posted June 9, 2013 Share Posted June 9, 2013 Maybe Chris should lock it out and we can start all over with new one: Ayre wants 0.5k for dsded qb9! LOL, yes! Roon ROCK (Roon 1.7; NUC7i3) > Ayre QB-9 Twenty > Ayre AX-5 Twenty > Thiel CS2.4SE (crossovers rebuilt with Clarity CSA and Multicap RTX caps, Mills MRA-12 resistors; ERSE and Jantzen coils; Cardas binding posts and hookup wire); Cardas and OEM power cables, interconnects, and speaker cables Link to comment
hardfour Posted June 9, 2013 Share Posted June 9, 2013 Thankfully, he didn't. Many posts have been highly informative and with interesting perspectives, especially those from Charles Hansen. IMO, Charles' main weakness herein has been responding to the incessant needling from those who seem to value a particular format over the music itself. Barry Diament received a similar treatment on another thread after he failed to properly exalt DSD. Agreed. I have found this thread HUGELY informative. CAPSv3 Carbon running Jriver -> Audioquest Carbon USB -> Exasound E20 -> Acoustic Zen Silver Reference -> Simaudio W-5 -> Acoustic Zen Satori -> Dynaudio Contour S3.4 Link to comment
labjr Posted June 9, 2013 Share Posted June 9, 2013 Looks like we read the same posts and came away with different interpretations of what was written. http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/ayre-wants-%241-5k-dsded-qb-9-a-15650/index4.html#post225870 I read several of his posts where he argued - with compelling evidence - that DSD has no advantages over PCM but none wherein he wrote that "DSD is bad". Put me down for hoping that Pono takes off. You're a QB fanboy. Everything Charles says is gospel. Isn't Pono expected to have some kind of DRM? Like only plays on Pono player? Or needs permission to play on your players? Who wants that? Link to comment
Freann Posted June 9, 2013 Share Posted June 9, 2013 How about this – lets go on topic. For us living in Europe I have some pricing information. I live in Stockholm, Sweden. The Ayre dealer is in Denmark. For me the pricing looks like this: - upgrade: 5000 DKK (€670) - shipping: 500 DKK (€67) Roon client on iPad/MacBookPro Roon Server & HQPlayer on Mac Mini 2.0 GHz i7 with JS-2 LPS-1 & ultraRendu → Lampizator Atlantic → Bent Audio TAP-X → Atma-sphere M60 → Zero autoformers → Harbeth Compact 7 ES-3 Link to comment
beetlemania Posted June 9, 2013 Share Posted June 9, 2013 You're a QB fan Yes, it sounds really good! Highly recommended! And that's without the DSD upgrade . . . fanboy. Just remember, Charles is the aggressive/insulting one in this thread. Everything Charles says is gospel. Much of what he's written is accessible and compelling. Sorry, I won't join you in tearing someone down. If you want gospel: http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/ayre-wants-%241-5k-dsded-qb-9-a-15650/index15.html#post229784 Isn't Pono expected to have some kind of DRM? Like only plays on Pono player? Or needs permission to play on your players? Who wants that? Those are good questions . . . I don't know as precious little has been revealed (that I've seen). But I'm far and away more likely to hear my favorite artists on Pono than DSD. Roon ROCK (Roon 1.7; NUC7i3) > Ayre QB-9 Twenty > Ayre AX-5 Twenty > Thiel CS2.4SE (crossovers rebuilt with Clarity CSA and Multicap RTX caps, Mills MRA-12 resistors; ERSE and Jantzen coils; Cardas binding posts and hookup wire); Cardas and OEM power cables, interconnects, and speaker cables Link to comment
One and a half Posted June 9, 2013 Share Posted June 9, 2013 How about this – lets go on topic.For us living in Europe I have some pricing information. I live in Stockholm, Sweden. The Ayre dealer is in Denmark. For me the pricing looks like this: - upgrade: 5000 DKK (€670) - shipping: 500 DKK (€67) Did the dealer advise how long the update will take? AS Profile Equipment List Say NO to MQA Link to comment
Charles Hansen Posted June 9, 2013 Share Posted June 9, 2013 How about this – lets go on topic.For us living in Europe I have some pricing information. I live in Stockholm, Sweden. The Ayre dealer is in Denmark. For me the pricing looks like this: - upgrade: 5000 DKK (€670) - shipping: 500 DKK (€67) Hello Freann, Each distributor sets the pricing (for both new units and upgrades) in their own country. In the case of the QB-9 upgrade we send the distributor updated PCB's that have been pre-tested at a wholesale price, Then they have to pay shipping and import duty and pay their technician to have the new PCBs installed. They also have to pay to return the old PCB's back to us. We try to give them a large enough discount that the prices will be fairly close, but imported product will always be more expensive than they are in their domestic market. Assuming that those prices include the VAT (15% to 20% depending on the country). that sounds about right. Did the dealer advise how long the update will take? Hello 1.5, Once the dealer receives the upgrade kits, it should take a good technician perhaps one to two hours to do his first unit. Once he is familiar with the process, he should be able to do it in less than an hour. But of course it also depends on what the backlog is like. Most repair facilities have a backlog of between 1 and 4 weeks. In the US, we set up appointments with an expected time frame for when we think we will be able to get to their unit. Then a few days before that time we let them know that we are ready to work on the unit so that they can send it to us. There is no point to have it sit on our shelf when they can still be listening to it. The delay currently is that we just introduced two new products (AX-5 and VX-5) and are preparing to release a third one (KX-5) soon. The demand has been so high that we have very little capacity to make the upgrade kits at the moment. We are currently interviewing additional production personnel so that we can catch up with the high demand, but I am sure that most people will be waiting somewhat longer than they would like. Best regards, Charles Hansen Dumb Analog Hardware Engineer Former Transducer Designer Link to comment
Miska Posted June 9, 2013 Share Posted June 9, 2013 Good engineering and knowledge off does not necessarily leads to successfully selling products.e.g. NOKIA - sorry Miska. Nokia N9 is still the best phone ever made. And given the markets it was made available in it was immense success. I'm still using mine, and will be using until it breaks up. But more than making successfully selling products (given zero marketing), I enjoyed the journey from Nokia 770 to Nokia N9. Jolla still continues the journey. I moved on to other things because seven years was enough for me of that track. Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers Link to comment
barrows Posted June 9, 2013 Share Posted June 9, 2013 So you're saying (or Bruno) that there's no benefit in going beyond 64fs and recording to 128fs or 256fs via the QA-9, because the analog limitations of the converter limit its resolution? Read the paper. Not limitations of "the converter", analog limitations of any circuit, especially when one considers amplifiers, speakers, and rooms. BTW, Hiro. I am very confused by your mention of MSB here as a SOTA DAC? MSB is a discrete resistor based, PCM, ladder style DAC. I thought your entire agenda here is based in the contention that sigma delta modulation is superior to PCM? SO/ROON/HQPe: DSD 512-Sonore opticalModuleDeluxe-Signature Rendu optical with Well Tempered Clock--DIY DSC-2 DAC with SC Pure Clock--DIY Purifi Amplifier-Focus Audio FS888 speakers-JL E 112 sub-Nordost Tyr USB, DIY EventHorizon AC cables, Iconoclast XLR & speaker cables, Synergistic Purple Fuses, Spacetime system clarifiers. ISOAcoustics Oreas footers. SONORE computer audio | opticalRendu | ultraRendu | microRendu | Signature Rendu SE | Accessories | Software | Link to comment
Hiro Posted June 9, 2013 Share Posted June 9, 2013 Read the paper. Not limitations of "the converter", analog limitations of any circuit, especially when one considers amplifiers, speakers, and rooms. Who would have thought... first I read about how the DSD system is limited and now I'm learning that the amplifiers, speakers etc are the limiting elements. BTW, Hiro. I am very confused by your mention of MSB here as a SOTA DAC? Forget about MSB, get the QB-9. You can't get any better than this. Listen to Charles. Link to comment
barrows Posted June 9, 2013 Share Posted June 9, 2013 Who would have thought... first I read about how the DSD system is limited and now I'm learning that the amplifiers, speakers etc are the limiting elements. Forget about MSB, get the QB-9. You can't get any better than this. Listen to Charles. Hiro: I am finding your lack of respect, and ridiculous statements tiresome. We are very lucky to have design engineers at the level of Charles Hansen contributing to these forums. As for your input, ahem, well, I'll let the readers decide what value you bring here. Mr Hansen never suggested that the QB-9 was the best DAC, you do not do yourself any favors here by making silly statements such as that. To be clear, I would like to know why you present MSB as representative of a SOTA DAC, when it is a PCM DAC, completely different from the delta sigma approach of DSD, and which you seem to claim to be superior? SO/ROON/HQPe: DSD 512-Sonore opticalModuleDeluxe-Signature Rendu optical with Well Tempered Clock--DIY DSC-2 DAC with SC Pure Clock--DIY Purifi Amplifier-Focus Audio FS888 speakers-JL E 112 sub-Nordost Tyr USB, DIY EventHorizon AC cables, Iconoclast XLR & speaker cables, Synergistic Purple Fuses, Spacetime system clarifiers. ISOAcoustics Oreas footers. SONORE computer audio | opticalRendu | ultraRendu | microRendu | Signature Rendu SE | Accessories | Software | Link to comment
Hiro Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 Mr Hansen never suggested that the QB-9 was the best DAC, you do not do yourself any favors here by making silly statements such as that. All the talk about transparency of 24/192 and the 24/192 QB-9 DAC is still not the best? It's a silly statement now?? To be clear, I would like to know why you present MSB as representative of a SOTA DAC, when it is a PCM DAC, completely different from the delta sigma approach of DSD, and which you seem to claim to be superior? You misinterpreted my post. I present the QB-9 as a true messiah and the only true SOTA DAC. I'm a new convert to Charles's gospel. PS Before I became a convert to his gospel, I was finding the lack of respect and the ridiculous comments of Charles and his few lemmings tiresome, but now I see them as very entertaining. Link to comment
sandyk Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 Hiro I would expect that Chris Connaker has seen right through your attempts to cause this thread to be removed. Sarcasm such as this from you recently has no place in ANY forum. How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file. PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020 Link to comment
Hiro Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 Isn't Pono expected to have some kind of DRM? Like only plays on Pono player? Or needs permission to play on your players? Who wants that? Good question. When you look at the history of "new" PCM formats you'll see that all of them (DVD-A, HD-DVD, BD-A) were basically a rebranded version of the same thing. Their main differentiator was DRM scheme. Will the history repeat itself with POno? Link to comment
Hiro Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 Hiro I would expect that Chris Connaker has seen right through your attempts to cause this thread to be removed. Sarcasm such as this from you recently has no place in ANY forum. I have never attempted to get any thread removed, ever. If the moderator of the forum has problem with sarcasm he's free to remove my post. But, I would be surprised to see it removed, as it was nowhere near offensive as many of Charles's posts. Link to comment
pawel8 Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 Hiro wants to change his name to "Hero" You do not know anything about Ayre and Charles Hansen and if you did,you would show little respect and understanding. Link to comment
MikeJazz Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 Charles, I appreciate the detailed response! It sounds to me like a fantastic upgrade for your customers.... Jesus R Jesus, why don't you and charles combine your talents in a ethernet enable new Ayre DAC? I imagine something like ethernet-to-i2s-dac... @ Charles, having a usb only dac, serves well the computer-centric audiophiles, (especially the tweekers that love to try all software combinations) but is a limitation for network-centric audiophiles (who prefer the simplicity of networks)... You could expand your user base... http://www.computeraudiophile.com/members/mikejazz/ funded this campain: http://igg.me/at/geekpulseaudio/x/5216671 Link to comment
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