beetlemania Posted April 8, 2013 Share Posted April 8, 2013 Though what if it ends up at $800, is it a tie? Tell you what . . . anything over $500 and I'll consider you the winner. Another piece of evidence is that CH, in the avsforum thread, explicitly wrote that the DX-5 upgrade (for older units) will be $1250 in the US. Now, while he left it open that the QB-9 upgrade might exceed his estimate of 15% of the retail price (oh, and he didn't specify whether that would be 15% of the the new or old price), I hope you'll grant me that the QB-9 upgrade will not be *more* than the DX-5 upgrade . . . which is what is claimed in the original post (which has no cited evidence whatsoever). At any rate, if I win I'll take a virtual Arrogant Bastard, which might 'splain my abrasive take. LOL! Roon ROCK (Roon 1.7; NUC7i3) > Ayre QB-9 Twenty > Ayre AX-5 Twenty > Thiel CS2.4SE (crossovers rebuilt with Clarity CSA and Multicap RTX caps, Mills MRA-12 resistors; ERSE and Jantzen coils; Cardas binding posts and hookup wire); Cardas and OEM power cables, interconnects, and speaker cables Link to comment
labjr Posted April 8, 2013 Share Posted April 8, 2013 Looks like the ES9018 is their reference series chip. From ESS web site "DNR of up to 135dB and THD+N of -120dB" vs "up to 128dB dynamic range and 0.0003% (-110dB) total harmonic distortion" Don't know if there are other differences. Also don't know what the price difference is. I couldn't find any of either for sale. Link to comment
wisnon Posted April 8, 2013 Share Posted April 8, 2013 Tell you what . . . anything over $500 and I'll consider you the winner. Another piece of evidence is that CH, in the avsforum thread, explicitly wrote that the DX-5 upgrade (for older units) will be $1250 in the US. Now, while he left it open that the QB-9 upgrade might exceed his estimate of 15% of the retail price (oh, and he didn't specify whether that would be 15% of the the new or old price), I hope you'll grant me that the QB-9 upgrade will not be *more* than the DX-5 upgrade . . . which is what is claimed in the original post (which has no cited evidence whatsoever). At any rate, if I win I'll take a virtual Arrogant Bastard, which might 'splain my abrasive take. LOL! LoL Not abrasive at all, just funny. Yes, I cant see the QB-9 being more expensive and update than the DX-5...so we fully agree there. My posture is not down to logic, rather I am trying to read the tea leaves that the owner posted on the other Fora... Just a bit of divination. LoL Link to comment
Audio_ELF Posted April 9, 2013 Share Posted April 9, 2013 Personally I can't see the problem if Ayre want to charge around $1500 to upgrade your $2,750 DAC to a $3,000 DAC. Actually it sounds ludicrously bad business to upgrade for the cost difference except for very recent purchasers - how many man hours does it take to disassemble your existing DAC, fit new parts, presumably test the DAC that it still meets the grade, etc. It depends how much they change - its not about the difference in cost between the two versions, more about the cost of the parts that are replaced; if they are replacing the DAC sections and maybe parts of the output section - that could account for 1/3 of the parts cost of building the new DAC. When you think about the work - 30-50% of the new cost sounds quite reasonable to me... I'd rather they charged more than thinking they skimped on the job. Eloise Eloise --- ...in my opinion / experience... While I agree "Everything may matter" working out what actually affects the sound is a trickier thing. And I agree "Trust your ears" but equally don't allow them to fool you - trust them with a bit of skepticism. keep your mind open... But mind your brain doesn't fall out. Link to comment
beetlemania Posted April 9, 2013 Share Posted April 9, 2013 Personally I can't see the problem if Ayre want to charge around $1500 to upgrade your $2,750 DAC to a $3,000 DAC. Actually it sounds ludicrously bad business to upgrade for the cost difference except for very recent purchasers - how many man hours does it take to disassemble your existing DAC, fit new parts, presumably test the DAC that it still meets the grade, etc. It depends how much they change - its not about the difference in cost between the two versions, more about the cost of the parts that are replaced; if they are replacing the DAC sections and maybe parts of the output section - that could account for 1/3 of the parts cost of building the new DAC. When you think about the work - 30-50% of the new cost sounds quite reasonable to me... I'd rather they charged more than thinking they skimped on the job. Eloise From Hansen's audioasylum post: "Also please remember that Ayre is not an "upgrade company". That is not our main profit center. We make our money on designing and building new equipment. We offer the upgrades as a courtesy simply because that is the way that we would like to be treated if the shoe were on the other foot. But we can't go out and hire ten people just to do upgrades. Please be patient. It's already a great product, so it's not like you have to suffer while you wait. But it will be worth waiting for." This is one reason, IMO, Ayre has pretty much the best customer service in the industry. But despite the inconsequential profits on their part, it might be a smart business plan: it creates loyal customers . . . like me. Roon ROCK (Roon 1.7; NUC7i3) > Ayre QB-9 Twenty > Ayre AX-5 Twenty > Thiel CS2.4SE (crossovers rebuilt with Clarity CSA and Multicap RTX caps, Mills MRA-12 resistors; ERSE and Jantzen coils; Cardas binding posts and hookup wire); Cardas and OEM power cables, interconnects, and speaker cables Link to comment
wisnon Posted April 9, 2013 Share Posted April 9, 2013 From Hansen's audioasylum post: "Also please remember that Ayre is not an "upgrade company". That is not our main profit center. We make our money on designing and building new equipment. We offer the upgrades as a courtesy simply because that is the way that we would like to be treated if the shoe were on the other foot. But we can't go out and hire ten people just to do upgrades. Please be patient. It's already a great product, so it's not like you have to suffer while you wait. But it will be worth waiting for." This is one reason, IMO, Ayre has pretty much the best customer service in the industry. But despite the inconsequential profits on their part, it might be a smart business plan: it creates loyal customers . . . like me. Most of the boutique guys do this... Link to comment
labjr Posted April 9, 2013 Share Posted April 9, 2013 I'll guess the upgrade cost will be somewhere around the retail price of the new model minus the resale value of the old model. Link to comment
beetlemania Posted April 9, 2013 Share Posted April 9, 2013 I'll guess the upgrade cost will be somewhere around the retail price of the new model minus the resale value of the old model. Not sure how you came up with that. Here's what Charles Hansen wrote last week: "The retail price of the new units will increase about 8% in the US. Upgrades for units bought within a certain period (we haven't decided how long yet) will receive courtesy pricing of just the difference between the old and new units. Older units will cost more to upgrade due to the amount of labor in them, I would guess around 15% (and possibly more)." These comments specifically regard the QB-9, not DX-5. At any, rate the original post in this thread is demonstrably wrong. Roon ROCK (Roon 1.7; NUC7i3) > Ayre QB-9 Twenty > Ayre AX-5 Twenty > Thiel CS2.4SE (crossovers rebuilt with Clarity CSA and Multicap RTX caps, Mills MRA-12 resistors; ERSE and Jantzen coils; Cardas binding posts and hookup wire); Cardas and OEM power cables, interconnects, and speaker cables Link to comment
kennyb123 Posted April 9, 2013 Share Posted April 9, 2013 Not sure how you came up with that. I got a laugh out of what he wrote - and I think that may have been the intention. Depending on the cost of upgrading and the time it will take to get the job done some may just prefer buying a new one and selling off the old one. Digital: Sonore opticalModule > Uptone EtherRegen > Shunyata Sigma Ethernet > Antipodes K30 > Shunyata Omega USB > Gustard X26pro DAC < Mutec REF10 SE120 Amp & Speakers: Spectral DMA-150mk2 > Aerial 10T Foundation: Stillpoints Ultra, Shunyata Denali v1 and Typhon x1 power conditioners, Shunyata Delta v2 and QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation and Infinity power cords, QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation XLR interconnect, Shunyata Sigma Ethernet, MIT Matrix HD 60 speaker cables, GIK bass traps, ASC Isothermal tube traps, Stillpoints Aperture panels, Quadraspire SVT rack, PGGB 256 Link to comment
labjr Posted April 9, 2013 Share Posted April 9, 2013 Not sure how you came up with that. Ah, it's a guess? While they say it's a courtesy, I think all companies should be doing that. It helps to retain customers who tell other people about their good customer service. They may not consider it their "main profit center" but it's good business. They may not make a lot of money on that part of the business but better to make a little and keep a customer. If everyone had to buy a new unit, they'd be jumping to other brands. I wouldn't expect them to lose money. Probably doesn't take a lot to make extra boards once the design is done. I wonder if they'll still upgrade the 24-96 models all the way to the latest? Link to comment
beetlemania Posted April 9, 2013 Share Posted April 9, 2013 I wonder if they'll still upgrade the 24-96 models all the way to the latest? Here's the rest of the paragraph from Hansen: "VERY EARLY units that are not 192 kHz capable will also require that upgrade as well, as the DoP feature requires 176.4/24 capability. (The distributor for each country sets their own pricing and warranty policies, so these will vary around the world.): RE: QB-9 DSD upgrade? - Charles Hansen - Computer Audio Asylum Roon ROCK (Roon 1.7; NUC7i3) > Ayre QB-9 Twenty > Ayre AX-5 Twenty > Thiel CS2.4SE (crossovers rebuilt with Clarity CSA and Multicap RTX caps, Mills MRA-12 resistors; ERSE and Jantzen coils; Cardas binding posts and hookup wire); Cardas and OEM power cables, interconnects, and speaker cables Link to comment
audiophile65 Posted April 10, 2013 Author Share Posted April 10, 2013 Information at last – and from Charles himself. Excellent. This is a nice touch: 4) Addition of an AC line powered supply for the USB circuitry. This provides for uniformly superior performance, regardless of the quality of the USB Vbus power supplied by the computer. Thanks Charles for the information. Very helpful and informative stuff! Link to comment
audiophile65 Posted April 10, 2013 Author Share Posted April 10, 2013 OK, here's what I did. I whipped out the handy dandy calculator on my computer and multiplied $2950.00 by 8 percent (in this case, a brand spanking new QB-9 DSD with no need to upgrade an already existing QB-9) ... I got $236. So, that comes close to a total of $3200. If this is right, I could live with this. Link to comment
labjr Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 I'm curious if the QB-9 will play DSD128 files. I think this would require 352khz PCM? Link to comment
beetlemania Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 So, that comes close to a total of $3200. I'm not sure what you did there. Read Hansen's quote again: "The retail price of the new units will increase about 8% in the US. Upgrades for units bought within a certain period (we haven't decided how long yet) will receive courtesy pricing of just the difference between the old and new units. Older units will cost more to upgrade due to the amount of labor in them, I would guess around 15% (and possibly more)." So, the US retail price will increase ~8%. Last I checked, a QB-9 was $2750. So, the QB-9 DSD should retail for ~$2970. If you recently bought a QB-9, the upgrade will cost you $2970-2750, or $220. If you have an older QB-9, it will cost ~15% of $2750, or ~$412. If you have an early QB-9 (only 24/96 capable), it will cost more still to bring it to current spec. Roon ROCK (Roon 1.7; NUC7i3) > Ayre QB-9 Twenty > Ayre AX-5 Twenty > Thiel CS2.4SE (crossovers rebuilt with Clarity CSA and Multicap RTX caps, Mills MRA-12 resistors; ERSE and Jantzen coils; Cardas binding posts and hookup wire); Cardas and OEM power cables, interconnects, and speaker cables Link to comment
Charles Hansen Posted May 1, 2013 Share Posted May 1, 2013 Tell you what . . . anything over $500 and I'll consider you the winner. I think the first units will ship next week, and the US retail price is going up $500, from $2750 to $3250. We were going to keep the price down by using less expensive master clock modules (one each for multiples of 44 and 48 kHz), but in the end decided to go for the gusto and just put in all the improvements that we made to the DX-5. The DX-5-DSD will still sound a "bit" better as the analog circuitry and the power supply are more sophisticated. The changes to the QB-9-DSD include: 1) Changing the DAC chip from the Burr-Brown DSD1792A to the ES9016S. 2) Replacing the audio master clocks with low-phase-noise modules running at twice the frequency of the previous ones, which allow the ESS DAC chip to perform at a higher level. 3) Changes to the analog audio circuitry and its power supply that improve the audio performance. 4) Addition of an AC line powered supply for the USB circuitry. This provides for uniformly superior performance, regardless of the quality of the USB Vbus power supplied by the computer. 5) The ability of the USB Audio input to accept and decode native DSD files from computer sources. The updates will take a long time. We can only do five or ten a week and there are thousands of QB-9's out there. You'll just have to be patient... Thanks, Charles Hansen Ayre Acoustics, inc. Charles Hansen Dumb Analog Hardware Engineer Former Transducer Designer Link to comment
Charles Hansen Posted May 1, 2013 Share Posted May 1, 2013 I'm curious if the QB-9 will play DSD128 files. I think this would require 352khz PCM? You are correct.That would mean a faster USB transceiver and new code. Not very excited about a project that can play what, six downloadable files? Besides, people like DSD because it "sounds more like analog". But when John Atkinson tested our QA-9 A/D converter to rip vinyl records, he said that recordings made at the quad rate PCM were absolutely indistinguishable from the original vinyl: Ayre Acoustics QA-9 USB A/D converter | Stereophile.com How much more "sounds like analog" can you get than that? Almost all of the claims made for DSD were made by Sony when they were trying to figure out a way to keep a $1 billion per year royalty stream going after the CD patents expired. Almost everything that people think they know about DSD is untrue. That doesn't mean that DSD sounds bad. It's just that we figured out why it sounds good and applied it to PCM. Then you can get better sound than DSD without having to replace all of your recording hardware, software, and playback hardware. Best regards, Charles Hansen Ayre Acoustics, Inc. Ayre Acoustics Charles Hansen Dumb Analog Hardware Engineer Former Transducer Designer Link to comment
mav52 Posted May 1, 2013 Share Posted May 1, 2013 Thank you Charles for clearing the air... The Truth Is Out There Link to comment
wisnon Posted May 1, 2013 Share Posted May 1, 2013 Charles, Can you please elaborate a bit more on the PCM improvement taken from DSD? I doubt that PCM can have the same impulse response as DSD and while I agree that quad rate PCM is close, I still feel DSD is a bit better and from what I hear chipless DSD conversion may be even a bit better again. Link to comment
labjr Posted May 1, 2013 Share Posted May 1, 2013 I don't know if I'd use vinyl as a reference, even for analog. Link to comment
beetlemania Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 . . . decided to go for the gusto and just put in all the improvements that we made to the DX-5. Way cool! Based on Jon Iverson's slight preference for the MSB Diamond ($43K as tested!) over the QB-9, I'm thinking the upgrade to the QB-9 DSD will be money well-spent . . . I've reserved my spot in line. Thanks. Roon ROCK (Roon 1.7; NUC7i3) > Ayre QB-9 Twenty > Ayre AX-5 Twenty > Thiel CS2.4SE (crossovers rebuilt with Clarity CSA and Multicap RTX caps, Mills MRA-12 resistors; ERSE and Jantzen coils; Cardas binding posts and hookup wire); Cardas and OEM power cables, interconnects, and speaker cables Link to comment
beetlemania Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 I don't know if I'd use vinyl as a reference, even for analog. Given that it's, essentially, impossible to use the master tapes, what would you use as an analog reference? Roon ROCK (Roon 1.7; NUC7i3) > Ayre QB-9 Twenty > Ayre AX-5 Twenty > Thiel CS2.4SE (crossovers rebuilt with Clarity CSA and Multicap RTX caps, Mills MRA-12 resistors; ERSE and Jantzen coils; Cardas binding posts and hookup wire); Cardas and OEM power cables, interconnects, and speaker cables Link to comment
labjr Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 Given that it's, essentially, impossible to use the master tapes, what would you use as an analog reference? I imagine those who work in the industry have had the oportunity to listen to source tapes and compare. How about making their own analog tape and comparing? Or compare the sound of digital formats to a microphone feed like Barry Diament does. To some, vinyl seems to have some euphonic quality to it. Almost as if it transcends analog itself. I don't get it. Link to comment
kennyb123 Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 To some, vinyl seems to have some euphonic quality to it. Almost as if it transcends analog itself. I don't get it. I have many vinyl LPs that are anything but euphonic sounding. I'd imagine there are thousands of such LPs out there. There’s nothing euphoric about the latest Soundgarden album on LP for example. This was nearly indistinguishable from the CD on my system – though I found a slight preference for the CD. My guess is that this LP was cut directly from the CD master. This seems to be a common practice with new vinyl now coming from the major record labels. I'm guessing that phono cartridges and phono stages are really what should be blamed for adding the euphonic sound. Vinyl can be exceptionally neutral when played back with neutral gear. Or maybe what’s really happening when we hear a more euphonic quality in vinyl isn’t that something has been added, it’s just that less is being stripped away. When we hear more a more natural sound, it’s more often the case that the music is being passed onto us less harmed by the recording and playback chain. Digital: Sonore opticalModule > Uptone EtherRegen > Shunyata Sigma Ethernet > Antipodes K30 > Shunyata Omega USB > Gustard X26pro DAC < Mutec REF10 SE120 Amp & Speakers: Spectral DMA-150mk2 > Aerial 10T Foundation: Stillpoints Ultra, Shunyata Denali v1 and Typhon x1 power conditioners, Shunyata Delta v2 and QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation and Infinity power cords, QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation XLR interconnect, Shunyata Sigma Ethernet, MIT Matrix HD 60 speaker cables, GIK bass traps, ASC Isothermal tube traps, Stillpoints Aperture panels, Quadraspire SVT rack, PGGB 256 Link to comment
beetlemania Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 I imagine those who work in the industry have had the oportunity to listen to source tapes and compare. How about making their own analog tape and comparing? Or compare the sound of digital formats to a microphone feed like Barry Diament does. That sounds great, in theory. But aren't there only a handful of people that have access to source tapes, and only a handful of source tapes at that? If Joe DAC-pack wants to evaluate whether his DAC is "analog-like", I don't see any practical reference other than vinyl. Regardless, here's the quote from John Atkinson in the QA-9 review:" . . . there was no doubt that with a 192kHz sample rate I could not distinguish between the LP and the digital rip." In other words, the digital copy was completely transparent to the source. In the context of evidence that DSD is *not* more analog-like than properly executed PCM, I think that Charles Hansen has a convincing point. Roon ROCK (Roon 1.7; NUC7i3) > Ayre QB-9 Twenty > Ayre AX-5 Twenty > Thiel CS2.4SE (crossovers rebuilt with Clarity CSA and Multicap RTX caps, Mills MRA-12 resistors; ERSE and Jantzen coils; Cardas binding posts and hookup wire); Cardas and OEM power cables, interconnects, and speaker cables Link to comment
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