Ancient Acoustics: How modern music would sound in an ancient Greek theatre?

[Piotr Wojdyllo]

Computer Audiophile Readers,

I would like to seek your opinion on my algorithm of sound processing as if heard in an ancient Greek theatre.

The processed versions are available at ancient-acoustics's sounds on SoundCloud - Hear the world with originals referred in the descriptions.

Some further explanation of the algo is available on my blog July | 2012 | Ancient Acoustics

It would be great to know what you think, how you find the effect of the processing.

I have some positive feedback from the authors of the presented music like 'very nice', 'very good sound', 'what a beautiful atmos in your theatre', 'it's a shame modern theatres do not provide this delivery [of sound]', so the solution may be interesting to you.

Let me know what you think.

I would be happy to answer the questions you may have.

Cheers,

Piotr

[Piotr Wojdyllo]

One of the examples you may check out is this:

 

Original work blues song by Donald Johnson Rock Me Sweet (Donald Johnson) by Sinlab on SoundCloud - Hear the world

 

Its version processed as if heard in an ancient theatre Rock Me Sweet in ancient acoustics by ancient-acoustics on SoundCloud - Hear the world

 

Let me know what you think,

 

Piotr

[The Computer Audiophile]

Hi Guys - Piotr sent me an email about his really interesting project and I thought it would be great for him to post more about it in the forum. This is interesting stuff.

[Julf]

Is this different from what digital modelling and convolution processors (such as the Sony DRE S777 from 1999) do?

[Piotr Wojdyllo]

Is this different from what digital modelling and convolution processors (such as the Sony DRE S777 from 1999) do?

 

Yes, it is. The method of simulation is new allowing for accurate simulation of difficult to model ancient theatres, yet consistent with the measurements. Then when you get the correct impulse response, it's an old convolution. However, as the impulse response is simulated, it is possible to get much higher accuracy than from direct measurement. The new method also incorporates the fact that the sound gets slightly delayed when 'hitting' the wall.

[Piotr Wojdyllo]

Summarizing, once one gets the right simulated impulse response s/he may use it in any convolution processor assuming it's efficient enough.

[Julf]

Summarizing, once one gets the right simulated impulse response s/he may use it in any convolution processor assuming it's efficient enough.

 

Interesting! Thanks!

[firedog]

Actually, it was the Roman Theater at Caesarea, Israel. It has great acoustics - the old "you can hear a person at the front talking in a normal tone of voice when you are seated back in the audience".

 

Didn't actually think the concert sounded special - but it was amplified. I assume unamplified music would sound different. But, the venue is amazing anyway - a Roman theater build overlooking the beach and facing the ocean - so you see the waves in the background as you watch the performance.

 

I also heard a performance of "Porgy and Bess" there. Sounded good, but I didn't think it sounded dramatically different than hearing it in a well designed modern hall.

 

But I think the examples on your web page sound really good and different from what we're used to hearing.

[Piotr Wojdyllo]

We know that Roman and Greek theatres in antiquity had the wall behind the scene (it follows from the "blueprints" and also some of the remaining theatres have them) and it significantly changes the acoustics e.g. in terms of reverberation time. This is one more point when the simulation is 'better' than the authentic experience - we can incorporate such knowledge into the model.

 

Also the issue about the woodden theatres. Originally, many Greek theatres were built of wood incl. Athens (the stone theatre was built only in 300BC). None however is preserved but we can recreate it's musical impact via simulated impulse responses .

[NiHo]

Piotr,

This is interesting. I was surprised by the reverberation times shown in your blog. Can I assume that these are for the amphitheatre without an audience? How would they have changed if the theatre was full?

 

Thanks,

 

Nigel

[Piotr Wojdyllo]

Nigel,

 

You are right. The times are given for an empty theatre. This was the setting in which Prof. Rindel and his team made the measurements and their simulations. Note, however, that Aspendos theatre they were working with was what is called "Roman" theatre - theatre suited for the performances resembling modern drama. It was semicircular in shape, had lower scene and the best places were just in front of the scene. For musical performances (similar to our opera) the better suited was so called "Greek" theatre with shape of 210 degrees circular section, higher scene and the best places in the first circular row.

 

Getting back to your question, if the theatre was full, the reverberation times would be lesser. But the dampening effect may be not so strong due to two reasons. The listeners would either sit or lie (the "step" is ~70 cm deep), so the sound will be acting anyway with the uncovered surface of the step. Second, we do not know exactly what was 'full' theatre in ancient times. For instance Epidaurus is currently calculated to seat 5000 persons, while it was the theatre for the needs of "sanatorium" (the city theatre for the city of Epidaurus was located elsewhere), so might be that it was not used in its full capacity as is used nowadays.

 

For the "Greek" theatre the reverberation times would be larger than for the "Roman" one, which i sconsistent with our idea of what is suitable for opera.

Cheers,

 

Piotr

[Piotr Wojdyllo]

But I think the examples on your web page sound really good and different from what we're used to hearing.

 

Thank you, firedog

[Piotr Wojdyllo]

Today I'd like to draw your attention to the following examples (the opinions are given alongside). I would be interested to know yours.

 

Tolubai's Adagio

Original Adagio (Based on Sinfonia XI by J. Rosenmüller) by Tolubai on SoundCloud - Hear the world

Processed Tolubai's Adagio in ancient acoustics by ancient-acoustics on SoundCloud - Hear the world

"what a beautiful atmos in your theatre"

 

Maduk ft Veela - Ghost Assassin (Hourglass Bonusmix)

Original Maduk ft Veela - Ghost Assassin (Hourglass Bonusmix) [Free Download] by Maduk on SoundCloud - Hear the world

Processed Maduk ft Veela - Ghost Assassin (Hourglass Bonusmix) in ancient acoustics by ancient-acoustics on SoundCloud - Hear the world

"Great track and sound"

 

Escape (Free for Collaboration) by Indigolab

Original Escape (Free for Collaboration) by Indigolab on SoundCloud - Hear the world

Processed Escape of and by Indigolab in ancient acoustics by ancient-acoustics on SoundCloud - Hear the world

"It's a shame modern theaters don't provide such an experience."

 

 

[Audio_ELF]

So you didn't mean Pink Floyd: Live at Pompeii (Wikipedia) then?

[Piotr Wojdyllo]

So you didn't mean Pink Floyd: Live at Pompeii (Wikipedia) then?

 

Not really. I meant rather what was the intention of ancient Greeks (audience, engineers) to have the best for them acoustical enclosure for sound propagation and to check what is its impact on the modern music - it may have very well been something specific to the kind of music they had or instruments they played. The reconstruction based on the remnants, blueprints and archeological evidence (and the new method of simulation ) shows that it has something more universal inside. Something that has impact that might be important.

 

Note that the only preserved theatres are of stone, marble, and concrete (wood doesn't last this long ) and according to the "blueprints" description we have such theatres despite their durability have some acoustical flaws which woodden did not have. To overcome these flaws the engineers used the resonators to ensure the musical sound propagates properly. Till now, the mystery of the resonators is not solved. To be on the safe side, I decided to focus on the woodden ones which are flawless this way. The only problem is they are not preserved, so we are doomed to the simulation. Which I did.

 

And the results are in the examples. It seems the ancient sound engineering works.

[Piotr Wojdyllo]

If some of you are interested, I should be able to process some of the material as if heard in an ancient theatre for you to propagate the idea. The recording should be without FXs imposed if only possible.

Let me know and stay in touch,

 

Piotr

[Piotr Wojdyllo]

It was a while, since I posted on this thread, but some progress has happened, too, which you could be interested in.

 

I gave a talk "Ancient theatre acoustics" at Acoustics Research Institute of Austrian Academy on May 26th, 2021, which was well received and we started a cooperation with Doz. Peter Balazs, which resulted in submission of a paper to the symposium on Acoustics of Ancient Theatres held in Verona in July 2022. The slides of the talk are available here.

[Piotr Wojdyllo]

I have an implementation of the ancient theatre filter on Android phones which is available on Google Play store. For those of you who would be interested, I can offer some free-installation codes as we agreed with Chris.
 

[Piotr Wojdyllo]

I have also implementation of the ancient theatre filter on Texas Instrument DSP (C6748) which works real-time (this is a difference with respect to Android which has got a 1/4 s delay).
 

[Piotr Wojdyllo]

With a friendly studio (Le Mobile) we tried an experiment how the ancient theatre Impulse Response would behave when applied to the modern music and the opinion of the studio engineer is that it resembles the reverse reverberation effect, which is an interesting progress from the point of view of the knowledge of Greek drama.