Censorship?

[audiojim]

I was previously active in a non audio site that descended into total chaos with bitter vendettas against agents who supposedly did wrong. It ruined the site. Also, even if someone did something wrong there are ways to take action such as filing complaints , contacting visa to contest a charge, maybe yelp reviews if it is a store, etc. It just uglies the whole site when people start battles in a place like this . I was pleased to see so little of that on this site. Would you go to a cocktail party and start running around the room telling everyone someone screwed you over ?

[obt_man]

Hynes did reply, and both posts were removed.

 

People should not be able to post anonymous allegations on a forum. The forum should not host material that might cause them to be sued.

 

An individual's need to have an anonymous venue to facilitate their anger is not more important than the forum owner's need to feed his family.

 

I am not a lawyer and may not know all the legal peculiarities of such situations, but when yesterday I first read the original post I knew 100% it would be deleted. I also knew that many forum members will defend this decision for whatever reason. I anyway very much appreciate that HTGL posted it and shared experience. Since the only explanation for censorship was the legal matter I suggest HTGL to repost his original message, but removing any mentioning of potential lawsuits, just to state factual experience. In this case I believe there will be no legal consequences for CA.

[Paul R]

I constantly under estimate people's capacity to be devious, and over estimate people's ethical and moral standards. But I do see the point you are making.

 

Also, I am usually fiercely badgered at cocktail parties by people who wish to make complaints about something or another, nothing at all related to *me*.

 

So these days I just drink beer with friends.

 

-Paul

 

 

 

I was previously active in a non audio site that descended into total chaos with bitter vendettas against agents who supposedly did wrong. It ruined the site. Also, even if someone did something wrong there are ways to take action such as filing complaints , contacting visa to contest a charge, maybe yelp reviews if it is a store, etc. It just uglies the whole site when people start battles in a place like this . I was pleased to see so little of that on this site. Would you go to a cocktail party and start running around the room telling everyone someone screwed you over ?

[HTGL]

While I dislike censorship in any form and would never want this great forum to become like Sh.TV, in this case, I do not find removal of this post censorship at all, it is entirely justified as the forum should not be used as an enabler for angry people to cause damage to any person or business anonymously. Nothing in the original post has been proven, and it has been disputed. The right place to air this is in a court. The internet is not the place to sidestep the legal system with jungle justice.

 

The forum should not be an enabler of vigilante or jungle justice.

 

I just stay calm after the small turmoil I brought because just don't want to make this forum like Sh. TV like you said. I am nobody here and gave no contribution here; so I agree with the general opinions that I have to shut my mouth.

 

But it does not mean that somebody like you should believe not mine but his. If I can do posting just one more time, I can easily disprove all your assumption, probably you don't care anyways. Don't worry guys I am not doing:)

 

Anonymously? what do you want know about me other than I am a honest customer?

 

Yes I already started the court action. If you really want to know the outcome, I will summarize it after the case finished since that is not the jungle justice anymore, but a fact by that time.

[wgscott]

Why not just take it up with your credit card company?

[HTGL]

I was previously active in a non audio site that descended into total chaos with bitter vendettas against agents who supposedly did wrong. It ruined the site. Also, even if someone did something wrong there are ways to take action such as filing complaints , contacting visa to contest a charge, maybe yelp reviews if it is a store, etc. It just uglies the whole site when people start battles in a place like this . I was pleased to see so little of that on this site. Would you go to a cocktail party and start running around the room telling everyone someone screwed you over ?

 

100% agreed...my bad.

[HTGL]

Why not just take it up with your credit card company?

 

I paid him July last year...and you know, BOA policy. I can't dispute it anymore.

To be honest, money back at this point is not my major concern.

[spdif-usb]

I hope you are very much enjoying your vacation, Chris!

[HTGL]

I am not a lawyer and may not know all the legal peculiarities of such situations, but when yesterday I first read the original post I knew 100% it would be deleted. I also knew that many forum members will defend this decision for whatever reason. I anyway very much appreciate that HTGL posted it and shared experience. Since the only explanation for censorship was the legal matter I suggest HTGL to repost his original message, but removing any mentioning of potential lawsuits, just to state factual experience. In this case I believe there will be no legal consequences for CA.

 

Thanks! I asked the question to Chris in earlier post of this thread, but no answer from him. I would not interrupt his trip for now.

[Robert Hutton]

I just stay calm after the small turmoil I brought because just don't want to make this forum like Sh. TV like you said. I am nobody here and gave no contribution here; so I agree with the general opinions that I have to shut my mouth.

 

But it does not mean that somebody like you should believe not mine but his. If I can do posting just one more time, I can easily disprove all your assumption, probably you don't care anyways. Don't worry guys I am not doing:)

 

Anonymously? what do you want know about me other than I am a honest customer?

 

Yes I already started the court action. If you really want to know the outcome, I will summarize it after the case finished since that is not the jungle justice anymore, but a fact by that time.

 

I don't believe you and I don't believe him either. I'm not interested. This isn't the place for it. Post the time, date and venue for the court date and anyone who is interested can attend.

 

I do not know your name or address, or where you work. Post that and I will take you seriously.

 

Anonymous is when I don't know who you are but I do know who the person you are making claims about is.

 

Another word synonymous for "anonymous" online is all too often "coward". I believe if one wants to attack another person by name one should identify oneself.

[HTGL]

I will take you seriously.QUOTE]

 

I guess that you should use your real name in your profile, Pope Francis

[realhifi]

Hi Guys - Thanks for starting this thread. I have no problem explaining why I removed the posts (both the OP and Paul Hyne's posts). It's all about lawsuits. In this case there is legal action taking place by one or both parties and I don't want CA to be the third. We can go back and forth all we want about CA's culpability in any such legal proceeding and the protections offered to forum owners, but the fact remains the cost associated with a lawsuit are astronomical. Anyone can sue anyone for any reason and that costs money. Whether or not the case is thrown out or proceeds to an agreement or trial might not matter if the costs associated with "lawyering up" are so high.

 

I would never remove a post just because it was about an advertiser. In fact I'd be more apt to leave it up because I have an open line of communication with CA advertisers and we'd likely be able to agree that it's better to leave such a post up on the site than stir up thoughts of a cover-up.

 

The reason I didn't leave an explanation about removing the specific post in question is that my wife, me and our 1 year old daughter are on our first family vacation together. Stopping our activities to compose an explanation from my iPhone wasn't in the cards.

 

P.S. All the equipment at CA headquarters is being watched by a house sitter and plenty of Dropcams :~)

 

 

 

Shirley and I on her first airplane ride.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4761[/ATTACH]

 

How in the heck did you get a daughter like that?! *s* Lucky man....she will have you wrapped around your finger in no time if she already hasn't! *s*

[mwheelerk]

The forum should not be an enabler of vigilante or jungle justice.

 

Exactly

Exactly +1

 

This type of action while hiding behind the mask of Internet forum anonymity should be totally frowned upon and excluded. Sharing one's experience and opinion about your usage of a product whether positive or negative is encouraged and appreciated. Posting one's personal conflicts is another matter altogether. If this type of action is supported and praised what is next? Where are the limits? Should I discuss legal actions and disillusionment over a real estate transaction? How about a rough divorce? Should I skewer the the ex-wife here? I know, I know, different subject matter but the point is where does this go or end?

[HTGL]

Gentlemen,

 

I guess this will be my last post regarding this issue unless somebody really wants me to post something. I did enough as a newbie, and really don't want to disturb this forum anymore. As I repetively said, I don't think I am qualified here yet to do that.

 

It seems that I am primarily criticized by two things: wrong venue and anonymity.

 

i) Wrong venue: I agree that I do not have a right to make you guys unpleasant by seeing my post. But as somebody suggested, if Chris allows for me to post my original posting but minus legal thing, I can always do that with involvement of Paul Hynes and you guys.

 

ii) Anonymity: I didn't know this would be criticized to be honest and didn't intend coward hiding at all when I posted it. I thought my identification and qualification might be just irrelvant to and or even misleading the point.

 

If you guys want though, and if that is a sufficient condition of my re-posting of the problematic thread, I can easily open myself. I don't have anything to hide. Seriously, do you guys really think something is different if you guys know my name, my age, my background, my work place, my education, my audio gears, and my cars... or whatever? I don't think so, but if you guys have a concensus, I do not have any problem to open them (probably for a limited time and without phone number and address since I don't want to be googled forever:))

 

Thank you for all your concerns and again take my sincere apology for this mess caused by me!

 

Best regards,

 

Wookyung

[Paul R]

I think the subject is interesting, but as you have already noted, wrong venue for a one on one with a vendor. Vendor's are human too, at least some of them are, and they screw up and put their foot in it as much as anyone else.

 

My suggestion- just keep the legal wrassling, and the details, totally private.

 

As a suggestion, approach the subject more like:

 

Hi Guys - I'm looking for advice what to do about a recalcitrant vendor. I sent him money xx months ago, and he still has not delivered product. What would you suggest I do?

 

Leaving out all names and such, you could probably get some good advice in public, even better advice in private, and so on.

 

But it is a little late to do that once you start legal proceedings. Basically, once you do that, you need to not talk about it until there is a resolution. And even then, often there is a requirement for secrecy in those resolutions.

 

-Paul

 

 

Gentlemen,

 

I guess this will be my last post regarding this issue unless somebody really wants me to post something. I did enough as a newbie, and really don't want to disturb this forum anymore. As I repetively said, I don't think I am qualified here yet to do that.

 

It seems that I am primarily criticized by two things: wrong venue and anonymity.

 

i) Wrong venue: I agree that I do not have a right to make you guys unpleasant by seeing my post. But as somebody suggested, if Chris allows for me to post my original posting but minus legal thing, I can always do that with involvement of Paul Hynes and you guys.

 

ii) Anonymity: I didn't know this would be criticized to be honest and didn't intend coward hiding at all when I posted it. I thought my identification and qualification might be just irrelvant to and or even misleading the point.

 

If you guys want though, and if that is a sufficient condition of my re-posting of the problematic thread, I can easily open myself. I don't have anything to hide. Seriously, do you guys really think something is different if you guys know my name, my age, my background, my work place, my education, my audio gears, and my cars... or whatever? I don't think so, but if you guys have a concensus, I do not have any problem to open them (probably for a limited time and without phone number and address since I don't want to be googled forever:))

 

Thank you for all your concerns and again take my sincere apology for this mess caused by me!

 

Best regards,

 

Wookyung

[wappinghigh]

Would you go to a cocktail party and start running around the room telling everyone someone screwed you...

 

You kidding?... a nerd like me!! Of course I would! Be a first. Particularly after "chatting them up" with all my computer audiophile talk...the only topic of conversation I can ever seem to strike up at a cocktail party. Is there anything else worth talking about? So this would definitely be something to celebrate

[mav52]

You kidding?... a nerd like me!! Of course I would! Be a first. Particularly after "chatting them up" with all my computer audiophile talk...the only topic of conversation I can ever seem to strike up at a cocktail party. Is there anything else worth talking about? So this would definitely be something to celebrate

 

but you could end up in some straight jacket as your taken off for psychological evaluation

 

I say leave the stuff between the lawyers, it's not forum material unless your case is over....

[wappinghigh]

 

I say leave the stuff between the lawyers, it's not forum material unless your case is over....

 

Agreed

 

BTW. The term "screwed" means different things in different cultures

[paulhynes]

I agree with the comments on this thread that this is not the place to air grievances between disputing parties. This should be dealt with by negotiation between the aggrieved parties initially, but this negotiation has failed. I have to admit that I would rather this were not happening, but as it is happening, and I do have to protect my interests.

 

As Wookyung has instigated legal proceedings, I have taken legal advice. This advice is to avoid any further discussion about the case details, either privately or publicly, to avoid compromising the legal proceedings. This is why I am not defending myself on this forum. As I stated in my reply on the deleted thread, the courts will look unemotionally at the facts of this dispute and rule accordingly. This is now my preferred path, as the ruling will have to be adhered to by both sides and it will be legally enforceable. Once there is a clear legal ruling I will be able to consider where to take the defamation issue depending on how much damage has been caused in the interim period.

 

I must point out that I have not instigated any legal proceedings yet, although I do reserve the right to do so to protect my interests regarding defamation, should this be necessary in the future.

 

The original defamation still exists. There were many views by the time I noticed the post and took a screenshot, and there may well have been many more views before Chris Connaker removed the thread. I believe several industry associates have also taken screenshots. Unfortunately it is a little late for re-directing Wookyung’s posting towards a non-defamatory style, as all those who viewed his original defamatory post will be able to link his new posts to the original post and my name has also been linked to the dispute within this thread. What is done is done.

 

I am surprised that, knowing there may be repercussions for Chris Connaker, Wookyung failed to wait for approval, or not, from Chris before posting defamatory information on his Forum. I will leave you to judge that action.

 

Paul Hynes

[Paul R]

It would be a very nice gesture if both you guys agreed - publicly - to absolve CA, and all of us who read the postings, out of any involvement in your legal wrangling.

 

By the way, welcome to C.A. You should hang around here a bit. Lots of people here who know of you and would be very interested in what you have to say. About Audio I mean!

 

-Paul

 

 

 

I agree with the comments on this thread that this is not the place to air grievances between disputing parties. This should be dealt with by negotiation between the aggrieved parties initially, but this negotiation has failed. I have to admit that I would rather this were not happening, but as it is happening, and I do have to protect my interests.

 

As Wookyung has instigated legal proceedings, I have taken legal advice. This advice is to avoid any further discussion about the case details, either privately or publicly, to avoid compromising the legal proceedings. This is why I am not defending myself on this forum. As I stated in my reply on the deleted thread, the courts will look unemotionally at the facts of this dispute and rule accordingly. This is now my preferred path, as the ruling will have to be adhered to by both sides and it will be legally enforceable. Once there is a clear legal ruling I will be able to consider where to take the defamation issue depending on how much damage has been caused in the interim period.

 

I must point out that I have not instigated any legal proceedings yet, although I do reserve the right to do so to protect my interests regarding defamation, should this be necessary in the future.

 

The original defamation still exists. There were many views by the time I noticed the post and took a screenshot, and there may well have been many more views before Chris Connaker removed the thread. I believe several industry associates have also taken screenshots. Unfortunately it is a little late for re-directing Wookyung’s posting towards a non-defamatory style, as all those who viewed his original defamatory post will be able to link his new posts to the original post and my name has also been linked to the dispute within this thread. What is done is done.

 

I am surprised that, knowing there may be repercussions for Chris Connaker, Wookyung failed to wait for approval, or not, from Chris before posting defamatory information on his Forum. I will leave you to judge that action.

 

Paul Hynes

[mav52]

It would be a very nice gesture if both you guys agreed - publicly - to absolve CA, and all of us who read the postings, out of any involvement in your legal wrangling.

 

By the way, welcome to C.A. You should hang around here a bit. Lots of people here who know of you and would be very interested in what you have to say. About Audio I mean!

 

-Paul

 

Agree, CA no place to even address this issue. It reminds me of sticking a fork into it... Take the high road and leave the issue to the legal professionals. Leave CA out of this.

[Blake]

...where is the "triple face palm" emoticon?

[paulhynes]

Hello Paul,

 

I think you misread my statement about the legal issues I am being forced to deal with. My post was not directed at Chris, CA or any of you who read the postings. I believe Chris acted in good faith removing the original post as soon as he was aware of it and I completely understand his position, as the owner of the forum, wanting to stay out of this and stay neutral. For the record my post was aimed at the instigator of the defamation, not the innocent bystanders so Chris, CA etc need have no fear of retribution from me. However it would not be sensible to absolve anyone supporting defamation in the future and I must reserve the right to deal with this accordingly. I will not be posting again on this subject.

 

Thank you for offering a welcome to C.A. I’m a little busy at present but this will change over the next year as I transfer production to another company with better facilities than I have here. Perhaps, with the above issue out of the way, I may feel more comfortable about your invitation to hang around.

 

Regards

Paul

[mav52]

[Blake]

Chris need have no fear of retribution from me.

 

Good to read. However, you should also know that Chris cannot be held liable simply by virtue of owning this website so it is not as though you are 'giving up' any right. The owner of a website cannot be held liable for defamation by 'publishing' defamatory statements of another party on that owner's website (see Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act)

 

http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/47/5/II/I/230