15 USB/SPDIF converters shootout

[mayhem13]

I dunno.....I have a real respect for some of the review staff and content over at Stereophile . I must admit not reading too much from Absolute or 6Moons so I can't comment either way....I do enjoy the pictures of systems myself. There's a bit of art IMO to a well balanced mix of high end audio gear and interior design. Somehow I imagine that the system must sound better with those exotic hardwood floors and Venetian plaster. Even this hard core objectivist would succumb to the bias in that environment. Sadly my DIY speakers rarely make it to the end game/finish stage before the drivers and XO components are ravaged for another, improved design. My disease type of Upgraditus is extemely debilitating and extremely aggressive.........and does not respond to any kind of treatment other than the distractions offered here at CA. Lol

[ar-t]

The real problem with this industry IMHO has nothing to do with taking measurements and publishing specs - most people cant disentangle them anyway and they don't tell the full story by a long shot.

 

Thanks

Bill

 

Since we provide phase noise plots, with our products, I can tell you 99% of the customers first question is "What am I looking at, and what does it mean?" Even providing data, in the most complete, and meaningful, method we know of is over the head of the customer.

 

Maybe we do it, hoping the customers will ask the competitors "Hey, do you guys have measurements like this?" In which case, the competition pays us to measure their stuff. I can only think of one that can, and he can't this week, because we are borrowing his, while ours is being repaired.

 

So, you really want me to believe the other guys need to rent a $89k HP?, at $9k/month? Or buy a used $100k Wavecrest? (They do not rent. Doesn't matter, because it is not up to the job. I know..........we have one.) (No, it is not ours. Glad we did not pay $xx,000, for a used one.)

 

All for a product that in all likelihood sells for roughly $1k, give or take a few hundred.

 

Now, tell us more about what our business model should be. We are listening.

[Superdad]

I know an audio manufacturer pretty well who makes cables, DAC's and speakers. I know exactly how they are designed and built. Yea analysis is done but the real key is listening to gear - extensive listening. For example the designer of the DAC will think of some change, do it, and bring it to the factory of the maker. He will then put it in his reference system and he, his staff, and any customers who happen to be there at the time will listen to it. Its usually obvious instantaneously if its better or not. After many many such iterations you start to get a good product.

.....

Bill

 

 

Excellent post Bill!

As a former co-owner of a high-end audio electronics firm (Hovland Company 1997-2009), and a dedicated audiophile for 36 years, I can confirm that the journey of developing and evolving a really fine music component is one of a thousand small steps.

Sure we had test equipment, but we learned decades ago that it was useless for many of the things that would make our components deliver a truthful and moving musical performance.

The only test instruments that could tell us which brand of resistor, or what choice of transistor, or which capacitor dielectric, or which DAC I/V circuit would sound the best were our ears. We did literally thousands of short sessions over the years. Three people, three music tracks, compare A to B a couple of times, then come to a consensus. Because we were so tuned (calibrated if you will) to our reference system, it was not hard to make a decision on even tiny changes. Absolutely the sort of thing that someone from the outside--no matter how good an ear they had--could notice. Not because they could not appreciate the cumulative effect of many such small changes, but because we were so dialed into the path of the system we were refining. (Actually, we could have had a pool to guess how long it would be until one of our dealers or distributors would call to remark how good the most recent units had been sounding--either after a few "in-line" changes had been made, or after they were entered as a batch into production.)

 

So it is both entertaining and depressing to still, in 2013, be reading the perennial arguments over whether there can be meaningful differences between different products' performance. Bits ain't bits folks, wire is not all the same, passive parts have a sonic signature, power supplies matter--and much of this will never be measurable on a test bench.

 

And yes, I agree that people need to audition components for themselves, ideally in their own system/room, or at least in a system containing some of their own gear, and most definitely with music they are intimate with.

 

Have a nice weekend everyone!

Alex Crespi

[bhobba]

I dunno.....I have a real respect for some of the review staff and content over at Stereophile

 

Some yes. But you know the criteria most are chosen on? The ability to write nice prose which often equates to padding that really says nothing.

 

I only get one magazine - Hi Fi World - and that purely because of Noel Keywood who tells it like it is. For example that magazine reviewed B&W 804D's and were effusive - reference quality bla bla - the adjectives flowed. Well Noel measured it - it had a rising frequency response and on top of that a hump in the treble response. Noel told it straight - it measured like shite and will sound like shite.

 

That's not to say there is no value in reading such publications. I am very impressed with the new Chord QuteHD DAC and I found out about it by reading Hi Fi World. I thought it worth a punt to check out and I could return it if I didn't like it - but I didn't - so it was certainly worthwhile for that. Then there was the case of the Burson DAC. 6 Moons were effusive, as good as DAC's costing heaps more, so with great expectations got one - yea it was good - maybe even the best at its price point - but up there with much more expensive stuff - sorry - not. The Chord however actually bested my current reference DAC. So its OK to take what magazines say as suggestions on what to check out but beyond that forget it.

 

Thanks

Bill

[bhobba]

Bits ain't bits folks, wire is not all the same, passive parts have a sonic signature, power supplies matter--and much of this will never be measurable on a test bench.

 

No they aren't - not by a long shot.

 

I have a DAC on order called a Killer DAC. I contains some pretty impressive engineering with something called a Zen Clock that has some amazing jitter measurements - yes the guy that makes those has measured them properly. But you know its real strength? It has been refined over many years via listening, listening and more listening - even the internal wire it uses was subjected to it - they found some copper wire for example that was supposed to make an appreciable difference. I heard of a shootout it was at where it was quickly narrowed to the Killer and a DCS stack. It was considered a tie - but the key point here is its much much cheaper than the DCS. You wont find this DAC reviewed or at your local Hi Fi store - but if you go to GTG's and chat to fellow Hi Fi enthusiasts you probably will find out about it. IMHO with direct marketing the best stuff is no longer found via the usual channels and not only that but its likely to cost a lot less than stuff that's not as good.

 

Thanks

Bill

[guydebord]

IMHO with direct marketing the best stuff is no longer found via the usual channels and not only that but its likely to cost a lot less than stuff that's not as good.

 

I completely agree with this statement and to me it has proven correct in several occasions, my current reference DAC was one of those positive surprises, passionately hand made at incredibly high standards by a fairly unknown company that uses direct marketing. I auditioned almost every DAC in the $5K to $10K range and to my ears there was no match.

 

Marketing exists because it works and one of the basics of marketing luxury is by making believe through pricing. The HiFi industrial complex has done a good job of alienating our sense of hearing, I really hope that we are entering a new era of dedicated and passionate designers that won't get bothered to compete with Harman and buy into the deceitful tradition of audio marketing.

[Currawong]

No they aren't - not by a long shot.

 

I have a DAC on order called a Killer DAC. I contains some pretty impressive engineering with something called a Zen Clock that has some amazing jitter measurements - yes the guy that makes those has measured them properly. But you know its real strength? It has been refined over many years via listening, listening and more listening - even the internal wire it uses was subjected to it - they found some copper wire for example that was supposed to make an appreciable difference. I heard of a shootout it was at where it was quickly narrowed to the Killer and a DCS stack. It was considered a tie - but the key point here is its much much cheaper than the DCS. You wont find this DAC reviewed or at your local Hi Fi store - but if you go to GTG's and chat to fellow Hi Fi enthusiasts you probably will find out about it. IMHO with direct marketing the best stuff is no longer found via the usual channels and not only that but its likely to cost a lot less than stuff that's not as good.

 

Thanks

Bill

 

The reason it can be cheaper is that the designer doesn't have to pay for CE and other certifications, inventory, R&D, fancy boxes, marketing, support staff and so on. To some degree, brand-name audio is like fashion: A woman going in to a single-brand store to buy a pair of jeans or whatever is paying more for the experience than for the product.

 

Audio-gd though has shown me, at least, that you can stick a USB-to-I2S solution into a DAC and make external converters redundant, but it took years to get there. The other DAC I've owned that had that, the Calyx 24/192, sounded awful using USB. Detailed, but music was dead.

[Blake]

I really hope that we are entering a new era of dedicated and passionate designers that won't get bothered to compete with Harman and buy into the deceitful tradition of audio marketing.

 

Not sure how to read this. Are you saying Harman is engaged in deceitful marketing? If so, IMHO you are picking on the wrong company.

[bhobba]

Not sure how to read this. Are you saying Harman is engaged in deceitful marketing? If so, IMHO you are picking on the wrong company.

 

That's not it - no one is being deceitful, ripping anyone off or anything like that. Its simply that in a traditional model a lot goes into each part of the chain so all involved is making a living - especially in the marketing and retail markup. Its at least 5 times - and in some cases 9-10 times - the cost of building them. With direct marketing its about 100%. But because they don't market it you wont find that stuff in the Hi-Fi press. You find out about it from associating with other audiophiles and forums like this. Often one reason they don't market is simply by word of mouth they have all the work they can handle. The best valve amp I have ever heard, and on some material the best amp I have ever heard, is the Weston Topaz Monoblocks:

sb343971 - Topaz Duo KT120 monoblocks

 

I had to wait 9 months for mine - it's the one in the photos - I did it as a special order but the maker liked it so much its now a standard model. I have heard the waiting list is now well over a year. I could give other examples but these days in my experience by and large the best gear is made by small guys selling direct and via word of mouth - and the really great thing about it is generally MUCH cheaper.

 

What he is probably referring to about marketing is the traditional 'puffing' that goes on saying stuff like - breakthrough, blows all other stuff away etc. Strictly speaking it's probably deceitful but I think most are used to it - they do it because, since we are highly suggestible, it works.

 

No need to take my word for it. Become involved in your local audiophile community and you will find out about this stuff. You can hear it and make up your own mind.

 

Thanks

Bill

[The Computer Audiophile]

This thread isn't about the industry. Please stay on topic and start another thread if you want to bash the industry or praise te industry or neither.

[RSB]

Nice shootout! And thread. I have an OR5, and am going out thru the I2S to a w4s Dac2. The I2S is in different league than the SP/DIF output, which I don't use because of this. This is to say that there are many variables to consider in making comparisons of this kind, and hearing gear in your own system is best. Also, I have just read on another site that there is a brand new SP/DIF upgrade available from Empirical Audio, to the OR5, which is supposed to dramatically reduce jitter. I don't know if I will do it or not given my use. It is wonderful how things are changing so fast in computer audio right now!

 

I am intrigued by your review of the BADA USB converter, and am lusting after owning one.

 

Randy

[TarnishedEars]

Wow, great job with that shootout! I'm assuming that these will only work for PCM though. DSD would not work through any of these. Correct?

[bhobba]

Wow, great job with that shootout! I'm assuming that these will only work for PCM though. DSD would not work through any of these. Correct?

 

Yes - but some converters that pass DSD are starting to appear - eg:

HYDRA - Audiobyte

 

I really like the I2S output - would love some more DAC's to appear that takes advantage of it and does DSD - the WFS is the only one I know that currently does I2S with that interface but no DSD.

 

As I have often said this is a really fast changing landscape.

 

Wonderful to have a forum like this so we can keep up with it.

 

Thanks

Bill

[Melvin]

Yes - but some converters that pass DSD are starting to appear - eg:

HYDRA - Audiobyte

 

Although not part of this shoot out, the SOtM dX-USB-HD passes DSD. No I2S however.

[junker]

Thank you for the review thread Elberoth.

 

I'm now considering trying out a BADA Alpha USB converter with the DAC in the McIntosh C2500 when it comes in next month. Pretty clueless on this but could the BADA pass DSD to a DSD native DAC (BADA3?).

[Elberoth]

(...)could the BADA pass DSD (...) ?

 

No converter I know is able to pass DSD. bhobba posted a link to a new converter that supposedly does DSD, but then you need a suitably equipped DAC.

[bhobba]

The BADA doesn't do DSD - very few do it and they are the more recent ones. To the best of my knowledge very few DAC's MAY be able to handle DSD via SPDIF - note the MAY - some think they may be able to do it but it hasn't been tested - again to the best of my knowledge.

 

Thanks

Bill

[cptaz]

Hi everybody, this is Marco, from Italy, and this is my very first post in this great forum.

 

I've decided to join because of this great thread, it's been immensely useful to me.

 

I have a question re audiophilleo AP2, I've searched this and other threads but couldn't find an answer.

 

I'm about to get my CAPS like server, it'll have the SOtM Audio tX-USBexp card installed, and I plan to have it powered with a Teddy Pardo power supply 9V/2A, I believe Elberoth did the same thing.

 

So the question is if AP2 would still benefit from the Pure Power upgrading, or the fact that the AP2 would be connected to the SOtM card + Teddy Pardo PSU would make the PP option irrelevant?

 

Thanks to all, and forgive my english.

Marco

[mav52]

Elberoth, is the BADA compatible on a 'Windows 8 Pro' computer with USB 3.0 ?

[dallasjustice]

Elberoth, is the BADA compatible on a 'Windows 8 Pro' computer with USB 3.0 ?

Im not elbertoth, but I'll answer. Yes but I have 64 bit version and I had to do the stuff Chris suggested here:

 

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f11-software/preinstallation-failed-please-run-setup-again-if-you-are-asked-confirm-installation-software-please-confirm-13783/

[mav52]

Im not elbertoth, but I'll answer. Yes but I have 64 bit version and I had to do the stuff Chris suggested here:

 

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f11-software/preinstallation-failed-please-run-setup-again-if-you-are-asked-confirm-installation-software-please-confirm-13783/

 

Thanks dallas, that's a bummer on the workaround, another Windows snafu for something that should be rather easy.

[onthebeach]

Wonderful thread. Well done Elberoth. Most enjoyable and informing as well which is a great combination in this wonderful and fascinating hobby /obsession of ours.

 

I owned both the Berkeley USB and the Offramp 4 at the same time for a while so I had a good chance to compare them head to head in my system. I was using audirvana plus on my mac mini with core audio and the OR4 was better. That is until Damien released the beta version of audirvana with direct mode which changed the playing field entirely. The OR4 using M2Tech internals wont accept direct and or integer mode where the BADA does. In this comparison the Berkeley was clearly better and became my converter of choice.

 

I'm still finding though my Wadia 3200 CD transport feeding my dac to be clearly superior in SQ to my CA/BADA set up. My CA set up is handy for certain listening times but for any quality, critical or dedicated listening sessions for me in my system the CD still wins out with more weight and engagement. There could be many reasons for this and I'm not very technically minded but for me right now that's how it is. If the disc is well recorded with a minimum of production and a quality transfer the difference becomes much more profound.

 

My CA consists of an Oyen HDD with AIFF files ripped by dBpoweramp in secure mode, Revelation Audio Labs for USB, coax and analogue cables, Berkeley USB converter, Killer (or occasionally a Bryston) DAC, ARC REF 5 tube preamp and REF 110 tube poweramp & VAF I93 mk2 speakers.

 

Once again Adam great thread and thanks very much for taking the time & effort.

 

Nathan

[Elberoth]

I'm still finding though my Wadia 3200 CD transport feeding my dac to be clearly superior in SQ to my CA/BADA set up.

 

I'm finding that hard to believe, as Wadia 3200 is an ancient Marantz CD player in disguise:

 

WT3200

 

This is a stone age technology, with $0.05 crystal oscilator that is already 20 year sold (oscilators age, loosing their accuracy).

 

How do you define better ?

[jacobacci]

Thanks for this great comparison Elberoth. Have you ever compared the Weiss Int202 or Int203 with these USB converters? I have been very happy with it feeding a Berkeley Alpha DAC Series 1 through AES/EBO. The Firewire interface on the PC seems less susceptible to interference than the USB interface and requires less effort (isolation, power supply) to keep clean.

I would be very interested where the Weiss fits on your scale.

[acousticsguru]

Thanks Adam! Great read! I'd been looking forward to it, still took me a few days to notice the thread.

 

Needless to say, no comparison is ever going to be complete. Me too, I'd be curious how the Weiss interfaces/converters match up with e.g. the BADA, realising they're profiting from the fact they're FireWire and not USB. Among the USB converters, the one I'm missing most in this comparison is the giant-killer Yellowtec PUC2, which my most reliable audiophile contact even prefers (!) to the BADA, having said that, it accepts sampling rates up to 96 kHz only, and appears to be (planning to test it in my system one of these days) best used with an galvanically isolating power supply (e.g. AQVOX).

 

Greetings from Switzerland, David.