15 USB/SPDIF converters shootout

[monteverdi]

This thread is about S/PDIF but did you use/compare where possible an AES/EBU connection? At least some DACs (like my Devialet) sound better with the latter.

[bhobba]

This appears to make so much more sense architecturally. Build the equivalent of a top notch converter into the DAC, and feed I2S directly to digital input board. Shorter signal path, fewer conversions. Cheaper and better....

 

Yea it always amazes me as well - in my experience with very very few exceptions they are awful. The exceptions are my PDX which uses a battery powered Hiface board feeding I2S chosen by extensive listening tests over an Audiophellio. It was in fact the equal of my Off-Ramp but that is probably due to the very short path it had to the DAC whereas the Off-Ramp was external. This of course is another reason it should be internal. The other DAC I thought had a very good USB was my Playback Designs MPD 3 - but at the price of that DAC you would hope so.

 

Thanks

Bill

[miab]

For what I can remember, I would categorize them in the following order, using the GD as reference:

 

100 - Audio GD DI-V3 TCXO + DI-PSU. As I said, to my ears and in my system (with a pair of ultra revealing pro-monitors), it had a slightly less clinical presence than AP, more liquid, soundstage was also slightly better. For those of you that think that spending more = better, if your translate Chinese R&D + costs of production into dollars, if this unit was made in the USA or any western city, it would easily cost above $1k. I have been more than 20 years in this hobby to understand that in hi-end, price is very relative and many times misleading. Audio GD is a genuine hi-fi lab with a very creative Engineer/Designer in charge and it just happens to be in China.

99 - AP1+PP. Great if you like a more clinical/technical sound without the usual harshness, I can understand why many would prefer this, especially at the first listen.

90 - BelCanto Ulink

85 - Stello U3

85 - M2Tech hiFace Evo (no PSU)

85 - Wavelenght WaveLink HS

80 - Musical Fidelity V192

 

 

I had the chance to audition Audio GD's top DAC as part of the summit group from HeadFi, at that time (2 years ago) I compared it with the Naim DAC, Lyndorf DPA-1, Transporter and MBL 1611F, all of them were better than the Audio GD. Saying this, Im not claiming that the Audio GD DI-V3 is the best there is, Im sure it can be bested, plus we all have different systems and hear differently. I already spoke to a Bel Canto and BADA dealer and Im arranging to audition both soon, can't wait! I have a good feeling about the REFLink.

 

Hi Guydebord

 

Could you tell a little about the computer transport you used and if you tried the spdif input as well with a cd transport? The reason I ask specifically about your computer set-up is because I have read that some have had problems running the newer firmware with certain computer transports (ie Logitech Touch with EDO,..) and had to revert to an older firmware where the usb stream was not under asynchronous protocol but adaptive.

 

thanks in advance.

[guydebord]

Hi Guydebord

 

Could you tell a little about the computer transport you used and if you tried the spdif input as well with a cd transport? The reason I ask specifically about your computer set-up is because I have read that some have had problems running the newer firmware with certain computer transports (ie Logitech Touch with EDO,..) and had to revert to an older firmware where the usb stream was not under asynchronous protocol but adaptive.

 

thanks in advance.

 

Im using a MacMini i7 2.0ghz 8gb with OSX 10.82 and PureMusic, I also have Amarra and used it with the Audirvana demo and it works perfectly well with all players. I didn't try it with other transports, sorry. Here is a screenshot I took from Audirvana:

[reverendo]

Adam,

What a fantastic review. Well written, to-the-point and well structered. Keep up the good work.

If my setup were different you would definitely be a life-saver. Will refer others to this thread.

Best regards

André

[robbbby]

What are the benefits of using devices like these between a computer and dac? I never realized converting from usb to spdif or aes before going into the dac could improve things so much.

[Elberoth]

What are the benefits of using devices like these between a computer and dac? I never realized converting from usb to spdif or aes before going into the dac could improve things so much.

 

Well, the first, most obvious, is the fact that some of the DACs that do not have the USB input at all.

 

Then you have DACs that do have the USB input, but the input doesn't accept all the rates up to 24/192 (some are 16/48 limited, some 24/96).

 

And last but not least - many USB equipped DACs simply sound BETTER with the outboard USB/SPDIF converters.

[spdif-usb]

Well, the first, most obvious, is the fact that some of the DACs that do not have the USB input at all.

 

Then you have DACs that do have the USB input, but the input doesn't accept all the rates up to 24/192 (some are 16/48 limited, some 24/96).

 

And last but not least - many USB equipped DACs simply sound BETTER with the outboard USB/SPDIF converters.

Well, I have nothing against outboard USB-to-SPDIF converters apart from the fact they can quickly get relatively too expensive compared to a DAC that not only accepts 24/192 via asynchronous USB, but also sounds great, as well as features the type of galvanic isolation that catapults high end USB cables, specialized PCI-e USB controller cards, SATA filters, memory players and consorts into the realms of homeopathy and esoterics.

[4est]

Well, I have nothing against outboard USB-to-SPDIF converters apart from the fact they can quickly get relatively too expensive compared to a DAC that not only accepts 24/192 via asynchronous USB, but also sounds great, as well as features the type of galvanic isolation that catapults high end USB cables, specialized PCI-e USB controller cards, SATA filters, memory players and consorts into the realms of homeopathy and esoterics.

 

I hate to say this, but often you get what you pay for. Many inexpensive DACs use (as one might expect) low cost digital input implementations. IME, the digital input is the most sonically important part of a DAC. In this, yes i2s is superior, but that alone does not make it better than good spdif. My Weiss DAC2 (no digital slouch- async FW) was bettered by my present kit via spdif in vs internal FW.

[mav52]

I hate to say this, but often you get what you pay for. Many inexpensive DACs use (as one might expect) low cost digital input implementations. IME, the digital input is the most sonically important part of a DAC. .

agree. I often look at the overall total cost vs performance in that, by the time you invest in a DAC that fits your budget and then invest in a few converters why not just invest in a DAC that does offer the best upfront. I often find at times it's cheaper to purchase a product that offers good performance with those "add on's' already installed than to continually add on parts and pieces attempting to reach some sonic goal that you might not be able to hear vs the cost..

[Melvin]

agree. I often look at the overall total cost vs performance in that, by the time you invest in a DAC that fits your budget and then invest in a few converters why not just invest in a DAC that does offer the best upfront. I often find at times it's cheaper to purchase a product that offers good performance with those "add on's' already installed than to continually add on parts and pieces attempting to reach some sonic goal that you might not be able to hear vs the cost..

 

This makes so much sense .. if only. An example, I purchased my Bifrost with the USB option. Then I was curious to see if a converter would make a difference in light of Jason Stoddard's infamous S/SPDIF comments and forum chatter, so I purchased the SOtM converter. Then I decided to purchase the companion battery supply to see what a better power supply would do. Of course, now I've moved on to the QuteHD. Still have the converter and happy for it. My God, what would we all talk about if we didn't have the endless tweaks and such! My poor wallet .. LOL.

[mayhem13]

Lots of time and effort put into this thread and a nice inside look at the Berkeley unit. But other than that, I'm a little confused as to what was accomplished?

 

Not sure what the protocol or parameters where of the evaluation/comparison...clarify?

Clearly the devices being evaluated was known as well as the reviewer being biased by cost.

While reading, it appears that there were some very stark audible differences between units.....where a digital stream is being is being transformed from one medium to another....any assumptions or explanations as to what is happening to the bitstream to result in such a wide variance of analog performance considering the remainder of the signal chain is unchanged?

[spdif-usb]

I hate to say this, but often you get what you pay for. Many inexpensive DACs use (as one might expect) low cost digital input implementations.

I think you often get less than what you pay for, even though I don't think I'm a pessimist. In fact, IMO my Eastern Electric MiniMax DAC Plus (with its vacuum tube removed from it and using stock op-amps) is a clear example of how it's possible to achieve great sound from an USB DAC up to 24/192 without having to completely break the bank.

[mav52]

I think you often get less than what you pay for, even though I don't think I'm a pessimist. In fact, IMO my Eastern Electric MiniMax DAC Plus (with its vacuum tube removed from it and using stock op-amps) is a clear example of how it's possible to achieve great sound from an USB DAC up to 24/192 without having to completely break the bank.

 

So very true, I do like my MiniMax Plus.

[edorr]

Lots of time and effort put into this thread and a nice inside look at the Berkeley unit. But other than that, I'm a little confused as to what was accomplished?

 

Not sure what the protocol or parameters where of the evaluation/comparison...clarify?

Clearly the devices being evaluated was known as well as the reviewer being biased by cost.

While reading, it appears that there were some very stark audible differences between units.....where a digital stream is being is being transformed from one medium to another....any assumptions or explanations as to what is happening to the bitstream to result in such a wide variance of analog performance considering the remainder of the signal chain is unchanged?

 

First and foremost Jitter. The USB converter provides the masterclock to the DAC, and jitter performance of these converters varies widely, so it stands to reason they will make a very big difference to performance of the downstream DAC. The second parameter is noise.

[Musicophile]

What are the benefits of using devices like these between a computer and dac? I never realized converting from usb to spdif or aes before going into the dac could improve things so much.

 

I was surprised myself.

 

In a perfect world, as said several times in this thread, the USB implementation of each DAC would be good enough that you don't need an external converter.

 

In reality, unless you get to let's say >$4000 DACs, most of today's DACs will simply not have the USB entry that is on par jitter-wise with a dedicated USB bridge, so spending another $300-$1500 specifically on this part of the chain helps.

 

Furthermore, the USB asynch technology is still very recent (2-3 years old), so most companies are still on a learning curve vs. SPDIF; which has been around for decades.

[4est]

I think you often get less than what you pay for, even though I don't think I'm a pessimist. In fact, IMO my Eastern Electric MiniMax DAC Plus (with its vacuum tube removed from it and using stock op-amps) is a clear example of how it's possible to achieve great sound from an USB DAC up to 24/192 without having to completely break the bank.

 

At $1100 it isn't exactly cheap either. I am not knocking, nor looking for a debate. My statement was that there is simply a buy in amount before one can expect to have truly good performance as compared to the SOTA. Surely pushing the envelope is more expensive by definition, and units such as the EE ride on the heals of it as value products. In part, that buy in amount is power supply and isolation goodies ect. There is little way around them without effecting the sonics. Something like a Dragonfly may be pretty good for the price, but it will not compete with a full sized and fully implemented solution IMO.

[spdif-usb]

At $1100 it isn't exactly cheap either.

Seeing as most DACs under $4k are still on a learning curve whereas my $1.1k DAC appears to be on what I would call a "teaching curve", the more fitting description here IMO is "dirt cheap". :big grin:

[mayhem13]

First and foremost Jitter. The USB converter provides the masterclock to the DAC, and jitter performance of these converters varies widely, so it stands to reason they will make a very big difference to performance of the downstream DAC. The second parameter is noise.

 

Both are measurable, but yet scope/analysis is missing. I'm fearful of this exercise being nothing more than pure subjectivity.

[DanRubin]

I'm fearful of this exercise being nothing more than pure subjectivity.

That's what most of us come here for. But you know that.

[DanRubin]

Are there any DACs at this time, at any price, whose USB input is not bettered by a first-rate external USB to S/PDIF converter?

[reverendo]

Are there any DACs at this time, at any price, whose USB input is not bettered by a first-rate external USB to S/PDIF converter?

I think also has to do with the implementation both of the spdif input on the DAC. some inputs perform better than others. I've never tested an external converter on my DAC, but I'd like to think that it wouldn't make much of a difference. If anyone feels like sending me one I'd be happy to find out.

Best regards

[edorr]

Are there any DACs at this time, at any price, whose USB input is not bettered by a first-rate external USB to S/PDIF converter?

 

According to Adam, the MSB DAC IV falls into that category. I will soon find out for myself it I agree. Currently using it with the OR5 + monolith PS, and will try the USB connection shortly.

[edorr]

Both are measurable, but yet scope/analysis is missing. I'm fearful of this exercise being nothing more than pure subjectivity.

 

A forum discussing audio in strictly objective terms would bore everyone to tears, and we would probably all end up with gear that measures terrifically and sounds like crap.

[4est]

Are there any DACs at this time, at any price, whose USB input is not bettered by a first-rate external USB to S/PDIF converter?

 

Well, not too many by appearances as much as some might hope that async USB was the silver bullet.