Noob's Proposal For New System - A Request For Assesment & Wisdom

[Paul R]

Nice speakers and sub. No idea about the amp, but it probably sounds great.

 

I would focus more on the source, as in spend money on the computer and possibly the DAC.

 

I would buy either a Mac Mini or a C.A.P.S. box, depending upon if you are allergic to Winders - or to Macs.

 

The software on a C.A.P.S. machine is JRMC, and on a Mac, you can choose between a whole bunch, and yes indeed, even JRMC. (JRMC for MacOS is scheduled to be available on 2/22.) Then you can use the hombrew machine to RIP the disks on and transfer them to the new computer over the network.

 

Also invest in a few external disks to backup and make safe your precious music files! VERY important!!

 

For the DAC I would add the USB interface, or purchase a different DAC. That's big rabbit hole to head down though, as there are quite good DACs that can replace the Preamp part of your system, or even the preamp and the amp! Lots and lots of choice.

 

But I would definitely change up the computer first.

 

-Paul

[Paul R]

Hey Gary -

The C.A.P.S. machines use very specific hardware to achieve very specific results, and changing the hardware changes the machine to not be a C.A.P.S. machine any longer. Not that you can not change the hardware and have a very good machine, but it will be different. That seems a little odd to people used to dealing with commodity hardware, but it's true none the less.

 

Basically, why not look at one of the smaller C.A.P.S. units, like a Lagoon? If not that, consider a Netbook or some small battery powered portable computer. You really want to control the machine noise as much as possible, and generic "bit perfect" music playback does not need a 800 gorilla for a CPU. Most folks think that, for whatever reason, the lower powered units sound a bit better too.

 

On the other paw, you can have a lot of fun just mixing and matching up parts, but if the goal is to put together a machine that plays music really really well - stick with a proven design, a Mac Mini, or with one of the players out there on the market. They range in cost from $100 to upwards of $100K.

 

-Paul

 

 

Thanks Nombedes & David.

I checked out the CAPS (Zuma) components and it uses a $350.00 sound card. David's advice leads me to believe this is not a necessary choice. It would be great to save $250-$300 if a $50-$100 PCIe card would yield close to the same sound quality and s/n ratio. I'm also convinced the i7 processor as overkill for a rig that will never do anything beyond sound output and the occasional web surfing. I've made a few other economical adjustments that shouldn't affect performance, but I would really to hear some good opinions.

[Paul R]

Paul, nombedes, bluesman, mayhem13, and robbbby.

 

Please accept my humble appreciation for the help you've already given. Much obliged to you & anyone else who takes the time to chime in.

 

Apologies for what? Great heavens, people here love to answer questions. Wait until a few other folks find this thread and you will be swimming in hog heaven with suggestions! All of wich will be good, and many of which will contradict each other.

 

This is all meant to be fun, not agonizing! If you read any other tone into my reply, please accept my apologies! It was unintended.

 

Please keep asking questions until you have answers you like and are comfortable with. It is quite okay to change your mind or make mistakes, and even more okay to take your time getting it right. You live with an audio system for a long time.

 

I'm VERY open to the idea of a Mac or Mac Mini, but I'm also shooting for an optical connection between DAC and computer. I've observed a lot of systems on this forum with Mac laptops & Minis, which leads me to wonder if they have optical out. Is this true? If so, which "used" models should a frugal budding audiophile look for for a music-only system?

 

Please forgive. This is a lot to learn for an old-schooler. I woke up this morning having never heard of this forum, knowing nothing about Mac (aside from their reputation for style & reliability), & having never heard of CAPS. Nothing worthwhile is ever easy, is it?

 

Thanks for all the help!

 

Gary

 

Every modern Mac has optical outputs. Comes out of the same jack as the headphones, you just plug in another cable. Some people like the optical output, some avoid it because of worries about jitter. (Essentially jitter is a timing error, sort of like the digital eqivalent of wow and flutter...)

 

l rather like the optical output myself, but it is limited on Macs to a max sample rate of 96k. Many folks bypass that limit using USB connected DACs, or even Firewire connected DACs.

 

Truthfully, there is not a lot of content yet at sample rates greater than 96k, so, in my opinion, using a DAC that sounds really good to you on cd quality material and up to 96k is the sweet spot on terms of cash outlay right now. That is changing quickly though!

 

I would probably go for a new Mac Mini if I were you, at $599. 90 days of complimentary support, one year warranty, a wide selection of players that work with iTunes, which by itself sounds prrtty darn good, an i5 processor, 4gigs of RAM, built in optical output, a d so forth. Easy to setup and maintain, and you do not need to conndct a monitor or keyboard to it except to initially set it up. That takes about a half hour.

 

Yours,

Paul

 

Typos courtesy of my iPhone.

[Paul R]

Sorry - early morning, iPhone, etc.

 

IRT to remote control software and especially the WAF, Karen loves JRemote and iTunes Remote.app, both of which only run on iPhones and iPads. JRemote on an iPad is about my idea of the best remote control software around. For music playing that is.

 

I use a MacbookPro laptop to manage the server via a remote screen and to RIP new music from CDs. The remote screen management works just fine for Mac or PC servers, at no extra cost.

 

It all works.

 

-Paul

 

 

Paul,

 

You may have already noticed I meant to convey humble "appreciation", not "apology". None of your replies made you seem bothered to answer questions. On the contrary; you've been nothing but kind. This brings to mind how different things are in the computing world today. Not long ago, most everyone was tethered to a Windows or Apple desktop. Then the laptop was the ticket, and now it's the iPhone, iPad, & other such devices. I'm typing this on a wireless keyboard 15 feet from a LCD HDTV hooked up to an HTPC I built two years ago. I don't know about you, but I've never miss spelled so much in my life (lol).

 

Which leads me to something else. UI. My HTPC has been an awesome user interface for accessing and controlling content. (In case you wonder why not arrange this room for music listening; there is no sweet spot here due to the shape of the room and wife-friendly speaker placement.) Do most people here use iPhones & iPads as their user interface? I've never used anything from Apple but I'm very open to it as previously stated.

 

With limited knowledge, the best and least inexpensive options I know of for a user-friendly UI are:

 

1. Computer, monitor, and wireless keyboard/trackball (as I currently use)

2. iPhone or iPad

3. Android-based contrivance, such as our Kindle Fire

 

Am I missing something else? What is the preferred UI around here? Do you have a recommendation?

 

Thanks again for helping me put all this together. I've made more progress in the last 24 hours than I have in the 17 years since converting my audio system to a home theater.

 

Gary

[Paul R]

Slightly OT:

 

I actually rather like the optical output from the new Mac Minis. The people that automatically dismiss them are missing a boatload of good sound. And the immunity of optical connections to EMI is a real thing.

 

I have a Mac Mini and a PC side by side right now, and am working on creating a perfectly clean AIFF library to test with JRMC Mac's version. I am using the PC to import the media library and test that the metadata works perfectly well.

 

The PC is running a Coax cable from the motherboard audio to the Coax input of a Peachtree DAC*IT, which is galvanically isolated. The Mac is running optical to the same Peachtree. The Mac Mini has Bluetooth turned on temporarily for the conversion process, and we all know Bluetooth is *notorious* for productin RF noise. How true - when I run XLD on the Mac it will, occasionally, but out such a blast of RF that it will cause the Coax connection from the PC to drop for a second. No blast of noise (galvanic isolation, remember?) but the signal drop out is amazing. Turn off blue tooth, no issues. Wow...

 

Just for fun, I put a PC laptop up close and tried doing the same with dbPowerAmp. No problems. Until I plugged in a wallwart powered USB drive, which must act like an antenna or something. Drop outs galore! Even from across the room. Wowzers....

 

Music servers like low power drives that are bus powered, and they don't like to have Bluetooth turned on. Optical connections are nearly immune to RF trash that will cause Coax cables to actually drop out. If I told you what happened when I started playing with HDMI cables, you would have a heart attack...

 

-Paul

[Paul R]

Looks like a good setup, but let me caution you - you have a lot of things in there you say "should not make any difference."

 

We have a member here who has a motto that goes something like - " In audio - everything matters."

 

He is correct in that.

 

-Paul

 

 

CONFIGURATION AS OF 2/14/12 @ 8am PACIFIC TIME

 

 

This whole rig will only remove $1191.00 from my wallet, possibly less according to mayhem13 & Eloise. I won't be using USB anyway.

 

 

 

The differences between the following computer configuration & Chris' reputable CAPS box are: 1. Case (not as sleek looking but shouldn't affect sound output or ambient noise and extra room actually gives it some advantages), 2. Ram (shouldn't affect SQ and if it did, a few bucks additional would buy Chris' choice), 3. Lower Sandy Bridge CPU (shouldn't make any audible difference and will provide all the power needed for audio-only use), 4. Cheaper but good SSD of same capacity (again, shouldn't make any audible difference), 5. Addition of Internal 3TB WD Green hdd (will add tiny bit of ambient noise, but I've had 3 of these in my HTPC for tw years & know how silent and cool they are – extremely), 6. Different sound card (affect – unknown, but it shouldn't make any measurable difference).

 

 

Computers are modular beasts, are they not? If I end up not liking the SQ from the $40.00 Asus sound card (or anything else) in this configuration, I'll THEN spend the $350.00 for the CAPS approved solution. Other than that, this box should be a winner. Interconnects? You be the judge, please.

 

 

 

 

COMPUTER ($820.00)

$60.00 SILVERSTONE Black Aluminum skin reinforced plastic front panel, 0.8mm SECC body MILO Series ML03B Micro ATX Media Center / HTPC Case

$100.00 Intel BOXDH77EB LGA 1155 Intel H77 HDMI SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 Micro ATX Intel Motherboard

$46.00 G.SKILL Value Series 8GB (2 x 4GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1333 (PC3 10600) Desktop Memory Model F3-10600CL9D-8GBNT

$50.00 Intel Celeron G540 Sandy Bridge 2.5GHz LGA 1155 65W Dual-Core Desktop Processor Intel HD Graphics BX80623G540

$60.00 ADATA Premier Pro SP600 ASP600S3-64GM-C 2.5" 64GB SATA III MLC Internal Solid State Drive (SSD)

$140.00 3TB Internal Western Digital SATA Green Hard Drive

$40.00 ASUS Xonar DGX 5.1 Channels PCI Express x1 Interface Gaming Audio Card

$60.00 picoPSU-150-XT + 102W Adapter Power Kit

$50.00 Playback App: JRMC v18

$9.00 USB 3.0 internal cable

$65.00 SOtM In-Line SATA Power Noise Filter

$140.00 Microsoft Windows 8 Professional 64-bit (Full Version) – OEM

 

 

EVERYTHING ELSE ($371.00)

$100.00 Schiit Modi DAC (sub-$300? Yes, but these have an excellent rep for sounding way beyond its price point. The designer of DTS - and a whole lot more - makes these and sells 'em direct)

$50.00 Media Software JRiver Media Center

$5.00 Optical Cable (1)

$11.00 RCA Cable Belkin 3' RCA (2)

$0.00 Integrated Amp ****Denon DRA-1025R receiver

$73.00 Sub Woofer RCA Cable 20' bluejean (3)

$0.00 Sub Woofer Velodyne F1200 Powered with Variable Crossover

$73.00 Sub Woofer RCA Cable 20' bluejean (3)

$0.00 Integrated Amp ****Denon DRA-1025R receiver

$60.00 Speaker Cable *****16-gauge Accell B109B 100ft UltraAudio speaker cable (4)

$0.00 Speakers *********Canton Karat 920 DC (stands yet tbd)

$0.00 Remote Control **********Kindle Fire and/or Harmony One

$0.00 Remote Control Software ***Gizmo – included with JRMC

$14.00 Bluetooth Receiver ******* IOGEAR GBU421 2.1 USB Micro Adapter USB (5)

 

 

$1191.00 GRAND TOTAL “OUT OF POCKET” (PLUS TAX AND SHIPPING WHERE APPLICABLE)

links to most of this stuff:

 

1. Optical cable - http://www.amazon.com/Optical-Toslink-Fiber-Plated-Digital/dp/B001VJ680U/ref=sr_1_3?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1360835480&sr=1-3&keywords=audiophile+optical

2. Belkin 3' RCA (Amazon.com: Belkin PureAV RCA Audio Cable 3 ft: Electronics)

3. 20' bluejean rca subwoofer cable (Amazon.com: Blue Jeans Cable LC-1 Double-Shielded Low Capacitance Subwoofer Cable, 20 foot, White: Electronics r=1-11&keywords=blue+jean+cable+rca)

4. 16-gauge Accell B109B UltraAudio speaker cable (100ft) Amazon.com: Accell B109B-100F UltraAudio Speaker Cable, 16-Gauge CL3-rated 100ft / 30m: Electronics r=1-10&keywords=speaker+cable

5. IOGEAR GBU421 Bluetooth 2.1 USB Micro Adapter USB IOGEAR GBU421 Bluetooth 2.1 USB Micro Adapter - Newegg.com)

[Paul R]

Yah- I would not quote them as universal facts either, but it sure do be interesting, don't it?

 

I *wish* I could find a setup like that around here for $250! Not even close at the local Frys, which is a good store to avoid anyway. I used to love the Microcenter back home new Philly. The closest we have here is Altex, which carries everything, but at a significant mark up...

 

-Paul

 

 

Great real world experiences Paul! Of course, being the objectivist that I'm believed to be, I can't develop any facts from your experiences, but I can sure make some assumptions and I agree with your experiences strongly.

 

Coincidentally, I'm heading to Micro Center right now to pick up the final pieces for a local music only server. They're got these killer bundle deals with iCore processors, compatable Mobos and SSD drives. Imagine an i3 ivy bridge, Sata 6 Mobo and 120gig SSD for $250......yummy!

 

Not really final....don't have the case yet. I'm gonna machine my own faceplate from billet aluminum with the Bridgeport mill at work. Should be fun..........?

[Paul R]

I'll be interested in hearing from you after you get a good CA system together and notice the difference between a 24/96 version and 24/192 version.

(grin)

 

I do honestly think you are going into CA with perhaps, a few too many assumptions about what is and what is not important, but that's actually part of the fun of the whole thing. Have fun!

 

-Paul

 

 

 

Based on some commentary, I decided to do away with the sound card altogether and try the motherboard’s optical out. This could save me $40.00 bringing the total cost down to *$1166.00. I can always add a separate card if the sound is less than superb. (*if you compared this math from last night’s post, yeah, I was $15.00 off. Damn pain killers.)

 

mayhem13

“While I wouldn't spend $350 on a sound add either, in respect to the designer, the omission of it no longer makes it a CAPS.......and that's ok. Chris and other have done some excellent work and research to develop an outta tha box solution for computer audio....”

How about I give it my first initial and call it “GAPS”. Seriously, I really do humbly appreciate Chris’ hard work, and the advice freely given by you and the other audio fiends. I mean friends.

 

mayhem13

“…I like optical.....it cannot transmit electrical interference. If the effects of said EMI are already in the bitstream, then there's nothing to be done with any of the transmission methods anyway.”

THIS is the comment that got me thinking about trying the mobo’s optical out before spending another $40.00 or more on a sound card. Thanks, mayhemJ

 

mayhem13

“Optical is limited in bandwidth, but as Paul mentioned there's little reputable commercial content available to the consumer and I doubt that's going to change. And IMO only, there's no audible benefit of the higher rates”

I agree.

At the risk of sounding like an idiot… (gulp) it’s my firm belief anything above a sample rate of 96k is pure marketing scam to lure people in to buying new hardware, their favorite music – again, and other merchandise of various types. The recording industry, music artists, software makers, manufacturers of DAC’s, AV receivers – crap, even interconnect companies CAN’T WAIT for the train loads of money they’ll surely make.

How many equipment reviews have you read here, in Stereophile, and elsewhere describing products as sounding “AWESOME”, “INCREDIBLY BEAUTIFUL,” “MAGNIFICENTLY WONDERFUL,” “FAITHFULLY REPRODUCED”, “WORTHY OF GOD’S AUDIO RACK,” (okay, maybe not that one)????? ? How many of those audio systems were driven by content with a sample rate above 96k? There is another winner in all this craziness. ME! And anyone else who lies in wait for great deals on the most excellent audio gear this universe has ever seen. Yes, I will thank Mr. Jones next door - who sadly thinks life is a competition – when he literally “buys” in to the hype and then needs to unload the old junk. SHHHHHHHH!!!! Let’s keep a lid on that.

 

“For external drives, standard HDD is fine but I prefer eSata interface for external of you have to go that route. USB3 is certainly fast.....and extremely electically noisey. Stay away....far far away.”

The current plan is an internal SATA hdd. If that needs to change, I’ll go with eSATA. My motherboard supports it. I will stay clear of USB 3. Thanks!

 

mayhem13

“Just give serious considerations to the power supply......the mother of all evils where PC audio is concerned…”

I’m using a CAPS certified PSU. It’s listed in the configuration details as “picoPSU-150-XT + 102W Adapter Power Kit.” It should power the motherboard, SSD, and Western Digital “Green” hdd.

 

Paul Raulerson

“Looks like a good setup, but let me caution you - you have a lot of things in there you say "should not make any difference." We have a member here who has a motto that goes something like - " In audio - everything matters." He is correct in that.”

I’ll buy that. This is where the modularity of a PC works to our advantage. If the sound quality fails to satisfy, things will get yanked.

Audio Elf

“Just an observation: don't you have an Asus sound card to provide SPDIF output and a DAC which is USB only”

Negative on both counts.

 

bluesman

“Read the entire Wintense download page and FAQs before starting - I would have been up and running last night if I'd followed this advice.”

Will do. Thanks so much for all your inputJ

 

Thanks again, everyone.

Gary

[Paul R]

Skeptical is good. Especially in a situation where people are out to separate you from your money. But it also can be a bit blinding. 24/192K has been around a while, and 24/384 is getting pretty common. 24/768 is here in at least one DAC, whose designer and seller is here on C.A.

 

As to why it sounds better? Basically the best answer I know of is that it avoids the artifacts inevitably introduced with filtering in the DAC. Or rather, it allows the designer to move the artifacts well above the audible range of any human being.

 

Also, most of us agonize over spending cash as much as you do, just ask the folks around here how long it takes me to make up my mind, and how often I tend to decide on lower cost gear because I am astute, economical, an wise. (You can translate that as dirt cheap and not be far off... )

 

CDs ripped for digital playback can sound as good as a top flight CD player to my way of thinking, and given what I have heard even on other folks really top flight systems. (Think audio systems any self respecting audiophile would drool over...not mine though! )

 

One reason the record companies fight digital so hard, and make sure that Apple for instance, is not selling true CD quality downloads, is the fear they have that people will stop re-buying the music. Why should they when it never degrades and just sounds better and better with each new evolution of DACs?

 

In any case, have fun with it, but try to keep a bit of an open mind. Might surprise you what you find.

 

-Paul

 

 

Paul,

 

LOL. Hey, I am having fun with this. It's exciting to rediscover my music collection while also getting acquainted with a community of fiendish, I mean friendly audiophiles such as yourself. Honestly, some of this is nothing more than a little jealousy on my part of those with the money to replace their CD collections for SACD, then dumping their SACD collection for DVD Audio, and knowing they'll dump the DVD Audio for 24/192, and so on and so on. I wish I had the money to acquire the things I find meaningful

 

Sound quality can be scientifically evaluated and even quantified. If I'm wrong about 24/192, proving it will be easy. That being said, I'm still amazed at how much money was wasted replacing working computers for a faster CPU we didn't need, and perfectly good cameras following the release of a sensor with more megapixel. After all; more is better, right?

 

Am I skeptical? Yes. Still, I'm not entirely close minded and would be much obliged if you or anyone else would enlighten me with the answer to the following puzzlement:

 

Let's assume for a moment we can trust at least some of the countless rave reviews from Stereophile, Home Theater, and too many other audio magazines to name - not to mention the tens of thousands of non-professional rave reviews from reasonably smart people with the best gear money can buy. Let's also assume most of those reviewers - professional and private - used 24/96 content or less throughout their evaluations (and you know they did). Here's Mr. Skeptic's question: If the quality of sound heard by those reviewers was TRULY worthy of being described as "Magnificent" "Breathtaking" "Brilliant" "INSPIRATIONAL" "Perfect" "SO GOOD, I NEVER WANTED TO TURN IT OFF" - what superior descriptions do you think they'll use to describe 24/192? Will reviewers have to invent BETTER adjectives? Will 24/192 suddenly not sound great anymore when 24,000/192,000K comes along?

 

As always, it will be interesting to see it all unfold.

 

Gary

[Paul R]

Heh- I would love to see the review you are quoting....

 

Jud may pop by this thread and explain it bettter than I possibly could, but you might want to search through some of the threads on the system to get an idea. It really isn't worth fighting over, but a lot of people - dare I say *most* people? - can hear a difference, and prefer the higher res formats. As to why 192K is better than 96K?

 

Take your pick of the reasons. I think Jud has nailed it with issues he has published about the artifacts from the filters.

 

-Paul

 

 

Eloise,

Paul,

 

Clearly I'm both skeptical and ignorant, but you're input may end up helping change that. Again, at least some of this is jealousy on my party, but I'm taking your advice to try to keep more of an open mind.

 

Maybe you answered my question, Paul, and I'm just not smart enough to grasp it because I still don't understand why we should spend more hard-earned money for a sample rate of 192,000 and above when 96,000 already sounds - according to the expert reviewers - like the heavens opened up and angels are singing to us in our very own living rooms. I'll just have to wait until I hear "beyond breathtaking transparency", "beyond angelic", "beyond bodacious", and so forth, for myself. BTW, how much storage space will I need after converting, say, 3TB of 24/96 content to 24/768?

[Paul R]

Yes, quite correct. Almost all modern Macs then.

 

I think Jud has a MacBook Pro that does not have an optical input too. Just weird that Apple would even thing about doing something like that.

-Paul

 

 

 

Not that it adds much to this discussion, but the MacBook Air does not have an optical output. The headphone jack is just that, a headphone jack, no optical output from it.