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ted_b

First multi-channel DSD playback solution with Mytek!

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Couldn't you use three stereo DACs preceded by a something like a miniDSP "nanoDIGI 2x8" acting as digital crossover? Not sure if the nanoDIGI would impart a sound signature of its own, or introduce additional jitter, though.

 

Also, I believe one could use different DACs, like sdolezalek proposes above, if you were using Acourate software on the server. I believe one could compensate on Acourate for the different starting times Miska refers to. Maybe you can do the same with the miniDSP software pluggin you will need for the crossover?

 

But I admit this is all conceptual for me. I have no first hand experience. I've been doing a fair amount of reading and discussing as I'm seriously considering a multichannel DAC, such as the e28 or Hilo, and also stacking cheaper DACs, but with the goal of getting rid of passive crossovers and driving a speaker driver directly with an amp and have the drivers time-aligned thru Acourate.

 

Ted, your experiment 18 months ago continues to be useful for many of us. Thanks for undertaking it, and communicating the takeaways!!


Roon Server: Gigabyte GA-Z170X UD5, i5 6600, Crucial MX200 SSD, HyperX 1x16GB RAM, Seasonic 520W 80+ PSU, 3 HDD for media, Zalman Z3 Plus case, Win 10 Pro

HQPlayer: Intel S1200KPR, Xeon E3 1265lv2, Crucial V4 SSD for OS, 8GB ECC RAM, PPA USB card v2, wide range picoPSU, PPA SATA cable for SSD, Streacom FC8 Evo case, lab linear PSU for picoPSU, Windows Server 2012 R2, AudioPhil's Optimizer, Acourate (digital crossovers, room correction), HQPlayer upsampling to 192/24

Rest of Chain:

Lynx Hilo as 6-channel DAC, McIntosh MC275 MkIV for mids & treble, Hypex UcD400HG for midbass into B&W 804S, 2 DIY 12" Rythmik subs, Equi=Core 1800 balanced power, dedicated power lines, room treatments

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Couldn't you use three stereo DACs preceded by a something like a miniDSP "nanoDIGI 2x8" acting as digital crossover? Not sure if the nanoDIGI would impart a sound signature of its own, or introduce additional jitter, though.

 

How would you get MCH digital audio into the nanoDIGI?


Kal Rubinson

Music in the Round

Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile

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I believe one could compensate on Acourate for the different starting times Miska refers to.

 

Problem is that you don't know how much there is device-to-device start delay, it will be different on every start...


Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer

Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers

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How would you get MCH digital audio into the nanoDIGI?

 

You are right: the nanoDIGI would work for the purpose I'm after (digital stereo in > crossovers inside the nanodIGI > limited band digital signal for each channel sent into each DAC), but not for multichannel audio where you have multiple speakers playing full-range.


Roon Server: Gigabyte GA-Z170X UD5, i5 6600, Crucial MX200 SSD, HyperX 1x16GB RAM, Seasonic 520W 80+ PSU, 3 HDD for media, Zalman Z3 Plus case, Win 10 Pro

HQPlayer: Intel S1200KPR, Xeon E3 1265lv2, Crucial V4 SSD for OS, 8GB ECC RAM, PPA USB card v2, wide range picoPSU, PPA SATA cable for SSD, Streacom FC8 Evo case, lab linear PSU for picoPSU, Windows Server 2012 R2, AudioPhil's Optimizer, Acourate (digital crossovers, room correction), HQPlayer upsampling to 192/24

Rest of Chain:

Lynx Hilo as 6-channel DAC, McIntosh MC275 MkIV for mids & treble, Hypex UcD400HG for midbass into B&W 804S, 2 DIY 12" Rythmik subs, Equi=Core 1800 balanced power, dedicated power lines, room treatments

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Problem is that you don't know how much there is device-to-device start delay, it will be different on every start...

 

I believe that would be solved thru measuring the response from each speaker and adjusting inside Acourate. Similar to the above, I understand for what I'm after that can be done, and was extrapolating to a full-range multichannel situation. But maybe it doesn't work there.

 

For time-aligning drivers driven directly by a given amp, in turn driven by a DAC output, you measure the drivers separately, then time-align thru Acourate. Like Mitchco showed us in his Advanced Acourate writeup here.

 

BTW, I recall the folks at miniDSP also saying this could be handled with their software plugin as well, but I didn't do deeper as to how the measured/knew how much to adjust.


Roon Server: Gigabyte GA-Z170X UD5, i5 6600, Crucial MX200 SSD, HyperX 1x16GB RAM, Seasonic 520W 80+ PSU, 3 HDD for media, Zalman Z3 Plus case, Win 10 Pro

HQPlayer: Intel S1200KPR, Xeon E3 1265lv2, Crucial V4 SSD for OS, 8GB ECC RAM, PPA USB card v2, wide range picoPSU, PPA SATA cable for SSD, Streacom FC8 Evo case, lab linear PSU for picoPSU, Windows Server 2012 R2, AudioPhil's Optimizer, Acourate (digital crossovers, room correction), HQPlayer upsampling to 192/24

Rest of Chain:

Lynx Hilo as 6-channel DAC, McIntosh MC275 MkIV for mids & treble, Hypex UcD400HG for midbass into B&W 804S, 2 DIY 12" Rythmik subs, Equi=Core 1800 balanced power, dedicated power lines, room treatments

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Yes i meant acourate only cuz it was brought up. If you end up with pcm then there are several mch dacs to choose from. Me, i love my e28

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Yes i meant acourate only cuz it was brought up. If you end up with pcm then there are several mch dacs to choose from. Me, i love my e28

I demoed it. It sounds great. It's fatally flawed IMO.


THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX

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Any MCH DAC needs to have an analog input. DSP is very commonly used with MCH because you have so many more moving parts with speakers at varying distances from the listening position. It's not possible to get time coherence without DSP.


THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX

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How will an analog input help? Im ITU so all i need are channel trims but yes its the exception.

 

It's best practice to take synchronous measurements when building DSP filters. It's possible with audiolense, DIRAC and to a lesser extent acourate, to take measurements with 2 different devices. However, it's not ideal and doesn't always work well.

Certainly one can do basic setup without using fancy DSP, but at this level, it's best to use DSP.

 

Of course, my selfish reason is that I really wanted to use the e28 in 4CH system with dual subs. So for me, DSP is a requirement for sure.

 

What is "ITU?"


THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX

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None of this would be DSD of course. Acourate is PCM

 

But the filters created by Acourate can be used on DSD with other software... ;)

 

Plus of course channel delays/levels are available without Acourate or such.


Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer

Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers

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I believe that would be solved thru measuring the response from each speaker and adjusting inside Acourate. Similar to the above, I understand for what I'm after that can be done, and was extrapolating to a full-range multichannel situation. But maybe it doesn't work there.

 

You would need to re-measure it every time you hit "Play", because you get different delay every time... Plus the relative delay drifts over time during playback too.

 

So no, Acourate doesn't help synchronizing multiple DACs.


Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer

Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers

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I still don't understand. I skimmed these "ITU" papers. I didn't read anything about time coherence at listening position. Is the argument that time coherence doesn't matter in such a setup?

 

 


THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX

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Sorry ITU was code for identical distance at 110 to 120 degree surrounds. All my speakers are within a half inch

 

I understand what you are saying. Thanks.

 

I looked at some of your room photos on Jeff's website. Do you use a subwoofer in your MCH setup? I can't seem to find one in your room.


THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX

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Sorry ITU was code for identical distance at 110 to 120 degree surrounds. All my speakers are within a half inch

Do you have your chair bolted to the floor?


Eloise

---

...in my opinion / experience...

While I agree "Everything may matter" working out what actually affects the sound is a trickier thing.

And I agree "Trust your ears" but equally don't allow them to fool you - trust them with a bit of skepticism.

keep your mind open... But mind your brain doesn't fall out.

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Do you have your chair bolted to the floor?

 

And the headrest bolted to his neck! ;)

 

(Have you seen photos of Ted's listening space?)


One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> eero Pro router -> EtherREGEN -> microRendu -> USPCB -> ISO Regen (powered by LPS-1) -> Ghent JSSG360 USB cable -> Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 DAC -> Spectral DMC-12 & DMA-150 -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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There's a post over on the Audio Circle that says you can stack 3 Hugos for Multichannel playback. I wonder if the Hugo folks will be posting instructions and a video on how to do this at home.

 

The stacking trend continues for non-exaSound e28 Multichannel fans!

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@ted_b

 

What is your reason from going from Mytek to ExaSound. Is it SQ or convenience ?

 

I believed you mentioned that you didn't like the pre amplifier part of the Mytek, and I find this one of the obstacles for replacing my Pre Pro with a DAC ('s). I like the almost unlimited number of channels a PC can offer and that is one of my reasons looking into this.

 

Do I understand correctly that the reason for a clock sync with the Myteks is because of the ASync USB placing the clock control at each induvidual DAC?

 

Would this be less of a problem when using a Multi Channel AES pro audio card which sends the clock signal along with the data stream? But what if the DAC is reclocking the signal?

 

More importantly, how big of a problem is this with multi channel audio. I can understand the impact when using it in an active xover.

 

I find your work very inspiring and definitely want to move into that direction for my Home Theater. I really like to understand the clock influence because this will help finding the right DAC which I want to build my system around.

 

It is a bit worrying that it seems very quiet around this subject while DSD and DAC's are booming business.

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The exaSound e28 is an an all-in-one solution for Multichannel music downloads. The Mytek can be made to work that way with 3 units and some driver magic. Most people will probably go for the all-in-one approach. (I did).

 

But we do have the Merging Technologies NADAC 8-Channel and 16-Channel DACs for the home market coming later in the year. So soon there will be another choice - although more expensive (starting at $7,500).

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The exaSound e28 is an an all-in-one solution for Multichannel music downloads. The Mytek can be made to work that way with 3 units and some driver magic. Most people will probably go for the all-in-one approach. (I did).

 

But we do have the Merging Technologies NADAC 8-Channel and 16-Channel DACs for the home market coming later in the year. So soon there will be another choice - although more expensive (starting at $7,500).

 

That aren't really funny prices.

Network audio seems to be on the horizon. Dante from Audinate is another one, clock sync at really high speeds with multichannel audio. https://www.audinate.com/ Just pro audio at the moment.

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