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ted_b

First multi-channel DSD playback solution with Mytek!

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Are you referring to the analog VC or the digital VC or both?

 

Analog really. I haven't much played with the digital one. 2 year ago, when I first got the Mytek, I did, but not since.

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Third, using native DSD means you cannot use any other of the extensive DSP capabilities in JRiver (in addition to volume control), including EQ, Bass Management and Delay.
This is an issue since it constrains this approach, even as demonstration, to proper non-bass-managed and ITU-arrayed setups. I have spent some time recently at Mytek and have discussed these issues. Channel gain can be finessed, I believe, by setting up each DAC using the VC knob to set level for both channels and a BAL function to trim between them. Then the remote control or jRiver would increment +/- from the settings maintaining the original differentials. Michal also thought (off-hand) that per-channel speaker distance compensation could require only a preset delay buffer per channel. This is just talk now but I got the impression that making it could work for both DSD and PCM.

Kal Rubinson

Music in the Round

Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile

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Third, yes native DSD64 cannot be DSP'd so it is very advantageous that I have an almost perfect room acoustically (thanks Jeff Hedback, Ethan Winer, etc), have my identical transducers spaced in a ITU setup (i.e i don't need bass management or channel delays, just trims done in the analog world, and LFE DSP'd for the room via SMS-1). Maybe Miska or others will chime in on what DSD128 could do to remedy this non-DSP issue for others.

 

Technically there's no problem of doing speaker distance and level adjustments (or anything else like digital room correction) DSP for DSD64 or DSD128. I don't know how well CAPS hardware could handle that, maybe someone could try out. I have only one Mytek DAC so I cannot try this stuff out. But I know for sure, that unless you have really simple DRC filter, CAPS won't cope with multi-channel digital room correction for native DSD, you better have some 8-core... :) My Mac Mini can run DRC for stereo DSD64 though...

 

So far, I support doing these either for 1:1 rate or 1:2 rate, since going from DSD64 to DSD128 while applying digital volume makes some extra dynamic range while applying level adjustment... But doing DSD64 to DSD64 won't suffer too much either.

 

Multichannel DSD is really cool stuff! :)


Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer

Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers

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.......Channel gain can be finessed, I believe, by setting up each DAC using the VC knob to set level for both channels and a BAL function to trim between them.....

 

Trimming channels can indeed be done quite easily between the three 2 channel DACs, expecially when they have L/R balance.

 

..... Then the remote control or jRiver would increment +/- from the settings maintaining the original differentials......

 

I don't think the JRiver digital remote control can be used with DSD, so master volume control is an issue. You can put an analog preamp behind the whole chain, or synch up volume up/down steps between the three DACs. If all three DACs correctly pic up the IR signal 99% of the time this should work fine.

 

I am having the same issue synching up volume control between my 4 channel Trinnov and 2 channel DAC for surrounds that bypasses the Trinnov. I am now using Bel Canto as extra DAC, and synch up using iRule. However, the Bel Canto misses so many IR signals it gets out of synch all the time. So I just bought an NAD M51 DAC with RS232 for my surround channels and hopefully keeping Trinnov and DAC in synch over RS232 works better.

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My Mac Mini can run DRC for stereo DSD64 though...

 

This is the first time I heared of this. How does this work without PMC conversion?

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This is the first time I heared of this. How does this work without PMC conversion?

 

I won't tell all the details... But why wouldn't it? With computers, we don't have to consider any limitations in processing power, do we? :) Of course we'll optimize it to run as fast as possible, but Moore's law will take care of the rest.


Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer

Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers

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I won't tell all the details... But why wouldn't it? With computers, we don't have to consider any limitations in processing power, do we? :) Of course we'll optimize it to run as fast as possible, but Moore's law will take care of the rest.

 

To my knowledge there are no DSP engines that run in native DSD and offer bass management and EQ. Digital volume control in DSD, yes, at best delay. That's it.

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Following all this, I've missed something in all the excitement...

 

Ted are you simply selecting .iso's in JRiver and hitting "play"... or having to pull out individual tracks to select?

 

Also with all these rumours swirling around of multichannel DSD DAC's being developed, are we to assume they"ll need proprietry drivers as well? And will only work with JRiver? I'm also assuming there is a zero chance of all this happening under OSX anytime soon. Or will JRiver for Mac offer something here?


New simplified setup: STEREO- Primary listening Area: Cullen Circuits Mod ZP90> Benchmark DAC1>RotelRKB250 Power amp>KEF Q Series. Secondary listening areas: 1/ QNAP 119P II(running MinimServer)>UPnP>Linn Majik DSI>Linn Majik 140's. 2/ (Source awaiting)>Invicta DAC>RotelRKB2100 Power amp>Rega's. Tertiary multiroom areas: Same QNAP>SMB>Sonos>Various. MULTICHANNEL- MacMini>A+(Standalone mode)>Exasound e28 >5.1 analog out>Yamaha Avantage Receiver>Pre-outs>Linn Chakra power amps>Linn Katan front and sides. Linn Trikan Centre. Velodyne SPL1000 Ultra

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Following all this, I've missed something in all the excitement...

 

Ted are you simply selecting .iso's in JRiver and hitting "play"... or having to pull out individual tracks to select?

 

Also with all these rumours swirling around of multichannel DSD DAC's being developed, are we to assume they"ll need proprietry drivers as well? And will only work with JRiver? I'm also assuming there is a zero chance of all this happening under OSX anytime soon. Or will JRiver for Mac offer something here?

 

Wap, you might want to reread my post. I give specific examples of DSF extraction and even mention the specific bat file I am using! No, it ain't ISO's. Individual song files allow for better browsing, playlists, flexibility, etc..at least in my world.

 

I have no idea what the future or swirling rumors are, Wap. But whatever they are I doubt they will be so restrictive as to only work with one software player. This thread is a proof of concept, not a statement that one must use J River. I do, and I applaud Matt and company for being on the bleeding edge of this..but I can't see why this wouldn't be easily possible in OSX with future versions of PM, Audirvana and J River.

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^ thanks Ted. Sorry. Just lost track of the basics, in all the excitement :)

 

I'll say it again. Awesome work BTW. No. fckn AWESOME

 

(Not sure if I can say this on such a respected site as CA, but there you go.)

 

hahahahahahaha. Go DSD!


New simplified setup: STEREO- Primary listening Area: Cullen Circuits Mod ZP90> Benchmark DAC1>RotelRKB250 Power amp>KEF Q Series. Secondary listening areas: 1/ QNAP 119P II(running MinimServer)>UPnP>Linn Majik DSI>Linn Majik 140's. 2/ (Source awaiting)>Invicta DAC>RotelRKB2100 Power amp>Rega's. Tertiary multiroom areas: Same QNAP>SMB>Sonos>Various. MULTICHANNEL- MacMini>A+(Standalone mode)>Exasound e28 >5.1 analog out>Yamaha Avantage Receiver>Pre-outs>Linn Chakra power amps>Linn Katan front and sides. Linn Trikan Centre. Velodyne SPL1000 Ultra

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Duplicate post. :) Go DSD!

 

Wait. And your right. Direct unconverted DSD without PCM down conversion.

 

Time to dust off all those old hiend multichannel "5.1analog in" receivers folks!


New simplified setup: STEREO- Primary listening Area: Cullen Circuits Mod ZP90> Benchmark DAC1>RotelRKB250 Power amp>KEF Q Series. Secondary listening areas: 1/ QNAP 119P II(running MinimServer)>UPnP>Linn Majik DSI>Linn Majik 140's. 2/ (Source awaiting)>Invicta DAC>RotelRKB2100 Power amp>Rega's. Tertiary multiroom areas: Same QNAP>SMB>Sonos>Various. MULTICHANNEL- MacMini>A+(Standalone mode)>Exasound e28 >5.1 analog out>Yamaha Avantage Receiver>Pre-outs>Linn Chakra power amps>Linn Katan front and sides. Linn Trikan Centre. Velodyne SPL1000 Ultra

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To my knowledge there are no DSP engines that run in native DSD and offer bass management and EQ. Digital volume control in DSD, yes, at best delay. That's it.

 

Maybe it's time to update that knowledge then... :)

 

Bass management and cross-overs are on the TODO-list though. Processing is piece of cake, having a sensible simple GUI for configuring such complex systems is bigger challenge.


Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer

Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers

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Maybe it's time to update that knowledge then... :)

 

Please enlighten me.

 

Bass management and cross-overs are on the TODO-list though.

 

Sounds like my knowledge is still up to date then.

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Please enlighten me.

 

I have my own DSP engine capable of all that.

 

Sounds like my knowledge is still up to date then.

 

Bass management not in the GUI, because I don't consider it important. 5.1 channel is supposed to have sub and most classical material is 5.0 channel and better to be played through full-range speakers without extra cross-overs. Bass management is for cheap home theaters and screws up sound.

 

If you consider digital room correction EQ with phase adjustments etc simpler than bass management then that's fine, I don't mind. :)

 

My point was that I have practically all the processing that I have available for PCM also available for DSD, that is rate conversion up or down, delay control, volume control and convolution engine (so you can run any kind filter). And conversion PCM <-> DSD. So from my perspective PCM and DSD are equal.

 

So if/once I have bass management it will most likely be available for both. Now it's not available for PCM either.


Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer

Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers

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I have my own DSP engine capable of all that.

 

So it appears my assessment that it is not currently "available (i.e. to the general public)" is correct.

 

So if/once I have bass management it will most likely be available for both. Now it's not available for PCM either.

 

What do you mean? Bass management for PCM is available everywhere - an a PC, Mac, in univeral players and processors.

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So it appears my assessment that it is not currently "available (i.e. to the general public)" is correct.

 

I don't know about bass management. I don't offer it, maybe in future if I bother. But a full convolution engine for running digital room correction or what ever similar EQ is there, available immediately.

 

I use it to smooth out bass response in my listening room, equally for PCM and DSD content.

 

What do you mean? Bass management for PCM is available everywhere - an a PC, Mac, in univeral players and processors.

 

I don't offer it in my software, and I don't have specific plans about it either. But, OTOH, I'm not planning to be "universal" because that's already a word that makes me feel sick. :) (usually means "universally bad on everything")


Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer

Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers

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^ guys. It doesn't matter. Play pure DSD out via analog into pure 5.1 analog inputs into the receiver. And "manage" everything like ted says with your own ears on the analog side. Been doing that for years with my old trusty NAD SACD player. That's all you need to do guys. Cheers. WAP.


New simplified setup: STEREO- Primary listening Area: Cullen Circuits Mod ZP90> Benchmark DAC1>RotelRKB250 Power amp>KEF Q Series. Secondary listening areas: 1/ QNAP 119P II(running MinimServer)>UPnP>Linn Majik DSI>Linn Majik 140's. 2/ (Source awaiting)>Invicta DAC>RotelRKB2100 Power amp>Rega's. Tertiary multiroom areas: Same QNAP>SMB>Sonos>Various. MULTICHANNEL- MacMini>A+(Standalone mode)>Exasound e28 >5.1 analog out>Yamaha Avantage Receiver>Pre-outs>Linn Chakra power amps>Linn Katan front and sides. Linn Trikan Centre. Velodyne SPL1000 Ultra

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^ guys. It doesn't matter. Play pure DSD out via analog into pure 5.1 analog inputs into the receiver. And "manage" everything like ted says with your own ears on the analog side. Been doing that for years with my old trusty NAD SACD player. That's all you need to do guys. Cheers. WAP.

 

Wap, I've already long time ago figured out that only way to get what I want is to do it myself. :)

 

I don't have to wait and beg for someone to do it, nor agree with anybody... Maybe it takes insane amount of time and effort, but eventually I'll get exactly what I wanted.

 

One thing I wanted was to run my DRC filter with DSD files too, so only option was to just implement the damn thing. Same goes also for speaker level/distance adjustment for multichannel.

 

One thing I love the most though, is when someone says something cannot be done... ;)


Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer

Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers

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^Yep. You sure are one if kind. LOL! ....That's for sure. And for that, you should be congratulated. :).


New simplified setup: STEREO- Primary listening Area: Cullen Circuits Mod ZP90> Benchmark DAC1>RotelRKB250 Power amp>KEF Q Series. Secondary listening areas: 1/ QNAP 119P II(running MinimServer)>UPnP>Linn Majik DSI>Linn Majik 140's. 2/ (Source awaiting)>Invicta DAC>RotelRKB2100 Power amp>Rega's. Tertiary multiroom areas: Same QNAP>SMB>Sonos>Various. MULTICHANNEL- MacMini>A+(Standalone mode)>Exasound e28 >5.1 analog out>Yamaha Avantage Receiver>Pre-outs>Linn Chakra power amps>Linn Katan front and sides. Linn Trikan Centre. Velodyne SPL1000 Ultra

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Wap, you might want to reread my post. I give specific examples of DSF extraction and even mention the specific bat file I am using! No, it ain't ISO's. Individual song files allow for better browsing, playlists, flexibility, etc..at least in my world.
Agreed but ISOs do work.

Kal Rubinson

Music in the Round

Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile

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Ted, did I miss the explanation on why you need the USB hub as opposed to just using the MB USB outputs?

 

Miska, the reason for some of the questions above might me that people don't understand how to apply the features on your software. The term convolution engine is enough to scare most including me. This is not the thread for it, but how about dedicated thread on the implementing some of the features?

 

Jesus R

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I think I figured out a way that you could do this with different DACs in the system. So you could use the Meitner DAC for two channels and two Myteks for the remaining channels or some other combination. I have to download a test file, update some apps and dig out some parts from the boneyard...I'll keep you posted.

 

Jesus R

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^ Now *that* would be cool...real cool :)


New simplified setup: STEREO- Primary listening Area: Cullen Circuits Mod ZP90> Benchmark DAC1>RotelRKB250 Power amp>KEF Q Series. Secondary listening areas: 1/ QNAP 119P II(running MinimServer)>UPnP>Linn Majik DSI>Linn Majik 140's. 2/ (Source awaiting)>Invicta DAC>RotelRKB2100 Power amp>Rega's. Tertiary multiroom areas: Same QNAP>SMB>Sonos>Various. MULTICHANNEL- MacMini>A+(Standalone mode)>Exasound e28 >5.1 analog out>Yamaha Avantage Receiver>Pre-outs>Linn Chakra power amps>Linn Katan front and sides. Linn Trikan Centre. Velodyne SPL1000 Ultra

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I can see a couple of no frills Sonore ExD's as perfect for this sort of "solution" ;)

 

So from your main DAC...you could have XLR going to your main stereo rig and RCA to the two front channels of your surround receiver. And two ExD's for sides, front and sub :)


New simplified setup: STEREO- Primary listening Area: Cullen Circuits Mod ZP90> Benchmark DAC1>RotelRKB250 Power amp>KEF Q Series. Secondary listening areas: 1/ QNAP 119P II(running MinimServer)>UPnP>Linn Majik DSI>Linn Majik 140's. 2/ (Source awaiting)>Invicta DAC>RotelRKB2100 Power amp>Rega's. Tertiary multiroom areas: Same QNAP>SMB>Sonos>Various. MULTICHANNEL- MacMini>A+(Standalone mode)>Exasound e28 >5.1 analog out>Yamaha Avantage Receiver>Pre-outs>Linn Chakra power amps>Linn Katan front and sides. Linn Trikan Centre. Velodyne SPL1000 Ultra

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I think I figured out a way that you could do this with different DACs in the system. So you could use the Meitner DAC for two channels and two Myteks for the remaining channels or some other combination. I have to download a test file, update some apps and dig out some parts from the boneyard...I'll keep you posted.

 

Jesus, Linux has features for doing this stuff, but there are couple of tricky parts:

- You need to have sample clocks synchronized, so one DAC needs to be master and other slave to it's clock, otherwise DACs will eventually drift out of sync. This can be done with word clock output and input.

- More challenging is starting all the DACs sample-accurately at the same time to avoid phase error between channels. This needs a "broadcast launch-control", which I guess can be done with proprietary protocols like the RigiSys' implementation in Mytek.

 

Usually on Windows ASIO driver takes care of this, on Linux ALSA can take care of the same (all the needed stuff is already there).

 

In the old days, over ten years ago, I used to have an M-Audio Delta1010 interface (still in production), and it's ASIO driver has supported bonding four of those interfaces together to form a 32-channel in/out system.


Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer

Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers

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